Does God Exist?

[steve dave]

I would say beautiful forests are pretty dangerous. Have you read the accounts of the explorers when they got to the Amazon? Pretty scary stuff. Basically a historical account of the movie Anaconda. And volcanoes are very beautiful.

that's a rough ridin' scary ass jungle. not an apple orchard forest with blueberry bush middles and strawberry ground parts.

[Stevesie60]

I definitely understand that for music, the melody can be soothing and I assume that it could be shown in other species. I meant to limit my post to visual stimuli.

However, I don't think that just because it can be explained physiologically that it means it was a natural process to becoming human. I'm asking why does something change physiologically in us when we see a mountain range or sunset.

[Panjandrum]

I definitely understand that for music, the melody can be soothing and I assume that it could be shown in other species. I meant to limit my post to visual stimuli.

However, I don't think that just because it can be explained physiologically that it means it was a natural process to becoming human. I'm asking why does something change physiologically in us when we see a mountain range or sunset.

I guess that's where I differ.  I think that if it can be explained physiologically, it was an evolutionary process.

I don't believe in God as a designer.  If he/she were a designer, the human body would have been developed in a much more efficient manner.  Why do we need an appendix?  Why is the eye such an inefficient means of viewing the world around us?  Why do our systems fail?  Why do cells mutate and cause cancer?

I guess that punts God back to a cosmic designer, which I'm okay with, because as I said earlier in this thread, we can't explain what happened before the Big Bang.  But, IMO, if that's where we're at, concepts of issues specific to humanity are fraught with issues because when you start digging into the details, God doesn't fit most situations.

[Stevesie60]

I don't believe in God as a designer.  If he/she were a designer, the human body would have been developed in a much more efficient manner.  Why do we need an appendix?  Why is the eye such an inefficient means of viewing the world around us?  Why do our systems fail?  Why do cells mutate and cause cancer?

I do have answers for these, but they're personal beliefs that I won't post for fear (legitimate or not) of being mocked. I am getting the feeling that we just need to have a late night turntable session soon so we can discuss this in a more personal setting.

[Panjandrum]

I don't believe in God as a designer.  If he/she were a designer, the human body would have been developed in a much more efficient manner.  Why do we need an appendix?  Why is the eye such an inefficient means of viewing the world around us?  Why do our systems fail?  Why do cells mutate and cause cancer?

I do have answers for these, but they're personal beliefs that I won't post for fear (legitimate or not) of being mocked. I am getting the feeling that we just need to have a late night turntable session soon so we can discuss this in a more personal setting.

I won't mock you, bro.

[Stevesie60]

I don't believe in God as a designer.  If he/she were a designer, the human body would have been developed in a much more efficient manner.  Why do we need an appendix?  Why is the eye such an inefficient means of viewing the world around us?  Why do our systems fail?  Why do cells mutate and cause cancer?

I do have answers for these, but they're personal beliefs that I won't post for fear (legitimate or not) of being mocked. I am getting the feeling that we just need to have a late night turntable session soon so we can discuss this in a more personal setting.

I won't mock you, bro.

I know you won't. It's others that I'm worried about.

[felix rex]

Panjandrum and I would enjoy drinking beers together and randomly high-fiving (I think).

[Panjandrum]

Panjandrum and I would enjoy drinking beers together and randomly high-fiving (I think).

I get that feeling.

[Stevesie60]

I will say a couple things without delving into anything too personal.

Regarding Panj's comment about the appendix, more recently there have been studies to show a use. A very brief description:

It has recently been found that the appendix has a function in embryology as it develops endocrine cells in the 11th week which secrete amines and hormones used in development

So you are willing to wait on science to figure out how the universe was created (admittedly a much more difficult thing to figure out) but not willing to see if science can explain what we currently view as "useless" organs? Regardless, if we were created by God, I think we have most likely evolved since then.



seven asked earlier if there is a God, why wouldn't He just create humans to love Him no matter what. To give you my explanation, one cannot love without the option to not love. If we were forced to love, that'd be a lot more like rape. It would be the equivalent of making my computer say, "I love you, Jakesie" every once in a while. I doubt anyone would feel rewarded by that.

[puniraptor]

How is the eye an inefficient way of viewing the world around us?

[EllRobersonisInnocent]

I don't believe in God as a designer.  If he/she were a designer, the human body would have been developed in a much more efficient manner.  Why do we need an appendix?  Why is the eye such an inefficient means of viewing the world around us?  Why do our systems fail?  Why do cells mutate and cause cancer?

I do have answers for these, but they're personal beliefs that I won't post for fear (legitimate or not) of being mocked. I am getting the feeling that we just need to have a late night turntable session soon so we can discuss this in a more personal setting.

I won't mock you, bro.

I know you won't. It's others that I'm worried about.

Jakesie,  you had me at "late night turntable session"

[HeinBallz]

I don't believe in God as a designer.  If he/she were a designer, the human body would have been developed in a much more efficient manner.  Why do we need an appendix?  Why is the eye such an inefficient means of viewing the world around us?  Why do our systems fail?  Why do cells mutate and cause cancer?

I do have answers for these, but they're personal beliefs that I won't post for fear (legitimate or not) of being mocked. I am getting the feeling that we just need to have a late night turntable session soon so we can discuss this in a more personal setting.

I won't mock you, bro.

I know you won't. It's others that I'm worried about.

Why would you worry?  People can mock if they want to; won't change anything unless you let it.  Embrace your vulnerability.

Ftr, I personally would never initiate any mocking. Nor would I partake.

[star seed 7]

I'm always looking for a good mocking.

[Stevesie60]

I don't believe in God as a designer.  If he/she were a designer, the human body would have been developed in a much more efficient manner.  Why do we need an appendix?  Why is the eye such an inefficient means of viewing the world around us?  Why do our systems fail?  Why do cells mutate and cause cancer?

I do have answers for these, but they're personal beliefs that I won't post for fear (legitimate or not) of being mocked. I am getting the feeling that we just need to have a late night turntable session soon so we can discuss this in a more personal setting.

I won't mock you, bro.

I know you won't. It's others that I'm worried about.

Why would you worry?  People can mock if they want to; won't change anything unless you let it.  Embrace your vulnerability.

Ftr, I personally would never initiate any mocking. Nor would I partake.

It's not my confidence or anything, I just think that once someone makes a joke after someone is vulnerable, everyone dismisses the first person's comment. I'd rather it be in an environment where I know everyone will be serious for the duration of the conversation.

[sys]

What in the world are you talking about? I'm asking why people in all societies, even atheists, consider some certain things to be immoral. Things like lying and stealing are all considered bad. I haven't heard a good reason why this would be the case if there wasn't a God. My question was does michigancat (or you, if you can grasp the concept of this post) have an explanation for why people want to be good/fair to others even when it doesn't benefit themselves.

there's been a ton of research on this stuff.  look some of it up (it's pretty similar to what panj has expressed).


re. beauty, etc.  our preferences in sensory perceptions usually align with evolutionary advantageous behaviors.  if you like steak, it's because that's a good way to get you to ingest animal protein.  if you like the view from a hill overlooking a green grassy plain, it's because that's a good place for you to find food and avoid getting eaten.  if you feel a weird urge to climb up a majestic mountain just because it's there, that because you'd probably never go rape the women in the village on the other side if you didn't.  etc.

[PoetWarrior]

If there is a God, we aren't Him.

Therefore, we can't know everything about Him or us.

Other answers

[chum1]

IMO, the interesting thing about natural selection isn't that it affords us the opportunity for ad hoc explanations of how every biological phenomenon in the world is the result of it.  The interesting thing about it is merely that it exists and that we can actually observe it in a very limited number of cases.

[sys]

the interesting thing about natural selection isn't that it affords us the opportunity for ad hoc explanations of how every biological phenomenon in the world is the result of it.

that's very funny.

we can actually observe it in a very limited number of cases.

not so limited.

[Pete]

IMO, the interesting thing about natural selection isn't that it affords us the opportunity for ad hoc explanations of how every biological phenomenon in the world is the result of it.  The interesting thing about it is merely that it exists and that we can actually observe it in a very limited number of cases.

Well put.

[chum1]

not so limited.

Judging by what I understand are supposed to be modern scieftific standards (including things like observed repeatability), I think so. 

[sys]

Judging by what I understand are supposed to be modern scieftific standards (including things like observed repeatability), I think so.

you're wrong.  you can't open a journal without seeing a paper in which natural selection is observed.

[chum1]

Judging by what I understand are supposed to be modern scieftific standards (including things like observed repeatability), I think so.

you're wrong.  you can't open a journal without seeing a paper in which natural selection is observed.

Oh, I know it's said all the time, but I don't think those observations meet suitable scientific standards.  Like, you can demonstrate natural selction in a lab.  That works.  But just looking at something and saying "Eureka! Natural selection!" ultimately isn't much different than looking at something and saying, "Eureka! Intelligent design!"  I don't care if every scientist disagrees about that.  I think they're wrong. 

[chum1]

And, really, is it so hard to believe that many scientists aren't as rigorous as they should be?

[bubbles4ksu]

Judging by what I understand are supposed to be modern scieftific standards (including things like observed repeatability), I think so.

you're wrong.  you can't open a journal without seeing a paper in which natural selection is observed.

Oh, I know it's said all the time, but I don't think those observations meet suitable scientific standards.  Like, you can demonstrate natural selction in a lab.  That works.  But just looking at something and saying "Eureka! Natural selection!" ultimately isn't much different than looking at something and saying, "Eureka! Intelligent design!"  I don't care if every scientist disagrees about that.  I think they're wrong.

drug resistant bacteria is consistently evolving outside the lab.

[sys]

people record empirical observations of natural selection in nature and report those observations.  not every article here contains observations of natural selection, but many do.  this is one journal of dozens.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evo.2013.67.issue-4/issuetoc