Author Topic: Does God Exist?  (Read 33316 times)

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Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #350 on: April 03, 2013, 11:58:22 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HooeZrC76s0#t=91s

a lot of people use yet unanswered questions to justify their belief.

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #351 on: April 04, 2013, 12:07:38 AM »
people record empirical observations of natural selection in nature and report those observations.  not every article here contains observations of natural selection, but many do.  this is one journal of dozens.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/evo.2013.67.issue-4/issuetoc

The problem with observations in nature is that you can only observe the thing one time, not repeatedly.  Without establishing repeatability, you're just guessing that it will happen again.  But guessing is supposed to be a no-no for science.  It's tempting to think things like, "OBVIOUSLY, it happen the same way again."  But that's hardly scientific. 

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #352 on: April 04, 2013, 12:10:52 AM »
And, really, is it so hard to believe that many scientists aren't as rigorous as they should be?

Clarification:  Every profession is seriously faulty in some way.  Science isn't exempt.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #353 on: April 04, 2013, 12:31:27 AM »
What in the world are you talking about? I'm asking why people in all societies, even atheists, consider some certain things to be immoral. Things like lying and stealing are all considered bad. I haven't heard a good reason why this would be the case if there wasn't a God. My question was does michigancat (or you, if you can grasp the concept of this post) have an explanation for why people want to be good/fair to others even when it doesn't benefit themselves.

there's been a ton of research on this stuff.  look some of it up (it's pretty similar to what panj has expressed).


re. beauty, etc.  our preferences in sensory perceptions usually align with evolutionary advantageous behaviors.  if you like steak, it's because that's a good way to get you to ingest animal protein.  if you like the view from a hill overlooking a green grassy plain, it's because that's a good place for you to find food and avoid getting eaten.  if you feel a weird urge to climb up a majestic mountain just because it's there, that because you'd probably never go rape the women in the village on the other side if you didn't.  etc.

I think you're reaching, but that's your right. Everyone has to at some point to justify their beliefs. Do you have an explanation for why people generally think sunsets are beautiful? It sounds like it would be a very terrifying thing in a hunter-gatherer society. Nocturnal animals about to be on the prowl, limited visibility, etc.

Offline sys

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #354 on: April 04, 2013, 06:57:05 AM »
I think you're reaching, but that's your right. Everyone has to at some point to justify their beliefs. Do you have an explanation for why people generally think sunsets are beautiful? It sounds like it would be a very terrifying thing in a hunter-gatherer society. Nocturnal animals about to be on the prowl, limited visibility, etc.

i'm not, actually.  these aren't beliefs, they are hypotheses.  like i said re. ethics, there's been a ton of research into these subjects.  you can rely on beliefs or can you educate yourself and base your thoughts on evidence.

i could come up with a number of just-so hypothesis for sunsets.  i'm sure you could as well.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #355 on: April 04, 2013, 07:04:25 AM »
The problem with observations in nature is that you can only observe the thing one time, not repeatedly.  Without establishing repeatability, you're just guessing that it will happen again.  But guessing is supposed to be a no-no for science.  It's tempting to think things like, "OBVIOUSLY, it happen the same way again."  But that's hardly scientific.

poor chum1, wondering as he wanders in a popperian dystopia.

science isn't popper's myth they teach in freshman year "intro to -" classes.  it's just a rigorous process of observation.  natural selection is as repeatedly observable as anything in a complex, hugely multi-variable system.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #356 on: April 04, 2013, 07:36:53 AM »
The problem with observations in nature is that you can only observe the thing one time, not repeatedly.  Without establishing repeatability, you're just guessing that it will happen again.  But guessing is supposed to be a no-no for science.  It's tempting to think things like, "OBVIOUSLY, it happen the same way again."  But that's hardly scientific.

poor chum1, wondering as he wanders in a popperian dystopia.

science isn't popper's myth they teach in freshman year "intro to -" classes.  it's just a rigorous process of observation.  natural selection is as repeatedly observable as anything in a complex, hugely multi-variable system.

I may have overstated the point.  I meant to be talking only about a theory like natural selection.  Unlike other scientific theories, it isn't measurable and predictable.  That's a very significant difference.  Going around, pointing at things, and calling it natural selection isn't much different from going around, pointing at things, and calling it intelligent design.  You can't measure for either.

And, like that blowhard Neil guy said in the video, we shouldn't just accept an idea because it's conventional.  This is true whether the idea is purported to be about something supernatural or natural.
   

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #357 on: April 04, 2013, 09:25:34 AM »
sys, do you find snakes to be beautiful?

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #358 on: April 04, 2013, 11:00:23 AM »
sys, do you find snakes to be beautiful?

hell no.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #359 on: April 04, 2013, 11:02:40 AM »
I will say a couple things without delving into anything too personal.

Regarding Panj's comment about the appendix, more recently there have been studies to show a use. A very brief description:
Quote
It has recently been found that the appendix has a function in embryology as it develops endocrine cells in the 11th week which secrete amines and hormones used in development
So you are willing to wait on science to figure out how the universe was created (admittedly a much more difficult thing to figure out) but not willing to see if science can explain what we currently view as "useless" organs? Regardless, if we were created by God, I think we have most likely evolved since then.



seven asked earlier if there is a God, why wouldn't He just create humans to love Him no matter what. To give you my explanation, one cannot love without the option to not love. If we were forced to love, that'd be a lot more like rape. It would be the equivalent of making my computer say, "I love you, Jakesie" every once in a while. I doubt anyone would feel rewarded by that.


would take.

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #360 on: April 04, 2013, 11:16:08 AM »
The problem with observations in nature is that you can only observe the thing one time, not repeatedly.  Without establishing repeatability, you're just guessing that it will happen again.  But guessing is supposed to be a no-no for science.  It's tempting to think things like, "OBVIOUSLY, it happen the same way again."  But that's hardly scientific.

poor chum1, wondering as he wanders in a popperian dystopia.

science isn't popper's myth they teach in freshman year "intro to -" classes.  it's just a rigorous process of observation.  natural selection is as repeatedly observable as anything in a complex, hugely multi-variable system.

I may have overstated the point.  I meant to be talking only about a theory like natural selection.  Unlike other scientific theories, it isn't measurable and predictable.  That's a very significant difference.  Going around, pointing at things, and calling it natural selection isn't much different from going around, pointing at things, and calling it intelligent design.  You can't measure for either.

And, like that blowhard Neil guy said in the video, we shouldn't just accept an idea because it's conventional.  This is true whether the idea is purported to be about something supernatural or natural.

is the existence and coming existence of antibiotic resistant bacteria measurable and predictable? or maybe god is designing new stuff to show humanity who is boss and the "evolution" of superbugs is him asserting his assholish dominance.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #361 on: April 04, 2013, 11:17:14 AM »
The problem with observations in nature is that you can only observe the thing one time, not repeatedly.  Without establishing repeatability, you're just guessing that it will happen again.  But guessing is supposed to be a no-no for science.  It's tempting to think things like, "OBVIOUSLY, it happen the same way again."  But that's hardly scientific.

poor chum1, wondering as he wanders in a popperian dystopia.

science isn't popper's myth they teach in freshman year "intro to -" classes.  it's just a rigorous process of observation.  natural selection is as repeatedly observable as anything in a complex, hugely multi-variable system.

I may have overstated the point.  I meant to be talking only about a theory like natural selection.  Unlike other scientific theories, it isn't measurable and predictable.  That's a very significant difference.  Going around, pointing at things, and calling it natural selection isn't much different from going around, pointing at things, and calling it intelligent design.  You can't measure for either.

And, like that blowhard Neil guy said in the video, we shouldn't just accept an idea because it's conventional.  This is true whether the idea is purported to be about something supernatural or natural.

is the existence and coming existence of antibiotic resistant bacteria measurable and predictable? or maybe god is designing new stuff to show humanity who is boss and the "evolution" of superbugs is him asserting his assholish dominance.

That is not loving at all.  That is sadistic.

Offline sys

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #362 on: April 04, 2013, 11:49:44 AM »
sys, do you find snakes to be beautiful?

most snakes, yes.  biophilia.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #363 on: April 04, 2013, 12:03:25 PM »
I may have overstated the point.  I meant to be talking only about a theory like natural selection.  Unlike other scientific theories, it isn't measurable and predictable.  That's a very significant difference.  Going around, pointing at things, and calling it natural selection isn't much different from going around, pointing at things, and calling it intelligent design.  You can't measure for either.

And, like that blowhard Neil guy said in the video, we shouldn't just accept an idea because it's conventional.  This is true whether the idea is purported to be about something supernatural or natural.

i think i understand what you are driving at.  if you refer back to your original post, i thought your observation regarding the numerous just-so stories that scientists as well as non-scientists invoke using selection was humorous in its accuracy.

however, i also think you would be surprised at how frequently people do observe, measure and describe natural selection.  prediction is a difficult standard, and what you might label as predictable can depend on the degree of change, the degree of the precision and the period of time over which you wish to predict.  if you'll accept an analogy to weather forecast, biologists commonly measure and predict tomorrow, we can usually predict the equivalent of a day being hot next summer and we have about as much trouble predicting the exact temperature of an individual day ten years from now as meteorologist do.

all of which certainly points to the complexities of the systems people are attempting to study.  the idea that natural selection is difficult to observe, or even more speciously, unmeasurable and unsupported by evidence is simply grossly incorrect.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #364 on: April 04, 2013, 12:19:15 PM »
I will say a couple things without delving into anything too personal.

Regarding Panj's comment about the appendix, more recently there have been studies to show a use. A very brief description:
Quote
It has recently been found that the appendix has a function in embryology as it develops endocrine cells in the 11th week which secrete amines and hormones used in development
So you are willing to wait on science to figure out how the universe was created (admittedly a much more difficult thing to figure out) but not willing to see if science can explain what we currently view as "useless" organs? Regardless, if we were created by God, I think we have most likely evolved since then.

seven asked earlier if there is a God, why wouldn't He just create humans to love Him no matter what. To give you my explanation, one cannot love without the option to not love. If we were forced to love, that'd be a lot more like rape. It would be the equivalent of making my computer say, "I love you, Jakesie" every once in a while. I doubt anyone would feel rewarded by that.

In regards to the first bolded point, if the appendix serves one purpose during the embryonic process, but only has the potential to cause problems later, I'd consider that bad design. A good design, if it was no longer useful after it's initial function, would be for it to simply shrink or disappear after it was done, or use a different method altogether.  And if God is relying on evolution to do the dirty work, and we weren't explicitly designed, the widely accepted belief that most religious people hold of God designing humans in his own image is tossed out the window.  If we're a hot mess, what does that make God?

In this situation, one of two things is true.  Either God is an incompetent designer, or he didn't design us in his own image.  If he's incompetent, then why should I do anything he says?  He's obviously stupid.  If he didn't design us in his own image, most Abrahamic religions are in a bind, because that's a core belief in the Tanakh and the Old Testament.  I'm still a little shaky on how that all plays into the Islamic version, but whatever.  Two outta three ain't bad.

In regards to the computer example, love is a biological and psychological "soup" based primarily on sexual attraction and attachment theory.  There have been tons of studies done on the biological basis for love and why we end up getting attached to one another.  A lot of it is evolutionary.

The bottom line, to me, is that the crux of the issue is that we've evolved to the point where our species has developed a super ego, and our narcissism for finding a deeper meaning and our special place in this world must be satisfied.  To do that, we need to be God's "special children", and we need to be created in his image.  We cannot live knowing that we are simply a mathematical anomaly and all of what we perceive to be beautiful and wonderful in the world is really a complex and advanced biological and psychological response to our base evolutionary instincts.  To know how unlikely it was that "you" were the winner in reproductive race of millions in your mother's womb.  To know that you will die and there will be nothing left but the DNA that you passed onto your children.  It's too depressing for most people and won't satisfy our super ego, so we yearn to believe that there is more to this accidental existence.

Hence, God.

The best example of this thought came from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in the form of the "Total Perspective Vortex":

Quote
"The Total Perspective Vortex derives its picture of the whole Universe on the principle of extrapolated matter analyses.
To explain — since every piece of matter in the Universe is in some way affected by every other piece of matter in the Universe, it is in theory possible to extrapolate the whole of creation — every sun, every planet, their orbits, their composition and their economic and social history from, say, one small piece of fairy cake.

The man who invented the Total Perspective Vortex did so basically in order to annoy his wife.

Trin Tragula — for that was his name — was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher or, as his wife would have it, an idiot.
And she would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of time he spent staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics of safety pins, or doing spectrographic analyses of pieces of fairy cake.

“Have some sense of proportion!” she would say, sometimes as often as thirty-eight times in a single day.
And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex — just to show her.

And into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so that when he turned it on she saw in one instant the whole infinity of creation and herself in relation to it.

To Trin Tragula’s horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain; but to his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively that if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion."

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #365 on: April 04, 2013, 01:45:12 PM »
is the existence and coming existence of antibiotic resistant bacteria measurable and predictable? or maybe god is designing new stuff to show humanity who is boss and the "evolution" of superbugs is him asserting his assholish dominance.

1.  Probably not.  2.  I'm not sure we're on the same page.

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #366 on: April 04, 2013, 02:15:25 PM »
I may have overstated the point.  I meant to be talking only about a theory like natural selection.  Unlike other scientific theories, it isn't measurable and predictable.  That's a very significant difference.  Going around, pointing at things, and calling it natural selection isn't much different from going around, pointing at things, and calling it intelligent design.  You can't measure for either.

And, like that blowhard Neil guy said in the video, we shouldn't just accept an idea because it's conventional.  This is true whether the idea is purported to be about something supernatural or natural.

i think i understand what you are driving at.  if you refer back to your original post, i thought your observation regarding the numerous just-so stories that scientists as well as non-scientists invoke using selection was humorous in its accuracy.

however, i also think you would be surprised at how frequently people do observe, measure and describe natural selection.  prediction is a difficult standard, and what you might label as predictable can depend on the degree of change, the degree of the precision and the period of time over which you wish to predict.  if you'll accept an analogy to weather forecast, biologists commonly measure and predict tomorrow, we can usually predict the equivalent of a day being hot next summer and we have about as much trouble predicting the exact temperature of an individual day ten years from now as meteorologist do.

all of which certainly points to the complexities of the systems people are attempting to study.  the idea that natural selection is difficult to observe, or even more speciously, unmeasurable and unsupported by evidence is simply grossly incorrect.

It's not that it's too difficult.  It's that it's too easy.  You can observe, measure, describe, make roughly accurate predictions about, and have evidence for things in all sorts of different ways.  There are people in this world who observe, measure, describe, make roughly accurate predictions about, and have evidence for intelligent design.  If someone shows me something and says, "Hey, check out this intelligent design," I don't think it really means anything beyond them telling some story.  There is no additional step they can take to confirm that the observations jibes with the theory.  That's just not the nature of the theory.  Same with natural selection. 

(I'm not trying to say that intelligent design should be regarded in the same way as natural selection, just giving reasons why I'm reluctant to say that we actually observe natural selection very often.)

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #367 on: April 04, 2013, 02:39:30 PM »
is the existence and coming existence of antibiotic resistant bacteria measurable and predictable? or maybe god is designing new stuff to show humanity who is boss and the "evolution" of superbugs is him asserting his assholish dominance.

1.  Probably not.  2.  I'm not sure we're on the same page.

we aren't on the same page, but i'm convinced you're either trolling or not trying very hard so i'm making my own points.

Offline CHONGS

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #368 on: April 04, 2013, 03:00:22 PM »
The problem with observations in nature is that you can only observe the thing one time, not repeatedly.  Without establishing repeatability, you're just guessing that it will happen again.  But guessing is supposed to be a no-no for science.  It's tempting to think things like, "OBVIOUSLY, it happen the same way again."  But that's hardly scientific.

popperian dystopia.

:love: what a great phrase (and also would be a kick ass band name)

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #369 on: April 04, 2013, 04:49:07 PM »
Panj, I think the world as evolved since sin entered the world, and because of that we are changing. I think we were made perfectly for a perfect world, but it is no longer a perfect world.

Also, regarding your explanation of love, if I understand what you're saying, you're saying that the physiological effects that happen are the causation of love. If you're saying I think I love my wife simply because my heart beat gets faster and my eyes dilate when I see her, that still does not explain why my heart beat gets faster and my eyes dilate.

I understand everyone's point about why humans would make up God. That is a decent explanation as to why He came into existence (so to speak). But you seem to be treating it as the only reason possible. I don't think anyone is arguing that it is impossible for people to have made up a reason to live. It's a nice thought, but as an atheist I had no desire to have a reason for my life. I didn't find it necessary, and was completely content living just to benefit myself. When I became aware of reasons God could exist, having a purpose in life was never a reason for me to look into it. So there has to be another reason than just that, at least for some people.

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Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #371 on: April 04, 2013, 06:38:23 PM »
Yeah, that's not really a new concept to me. As an atheist it reiterated my belief that religion was man made, so I definitely understand that idea. But if we all are made by God, I think we would have a natural idea that something bigger is going on. I have heard stories about explorers even recently going to islands in which people haven't had interaction with anyone outside of the island, but they have an idea of God/Christianity. They don't have a name for Jesus, but an idea that God had a son that died for them.

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #372 on: April 04, 2013, 07:05:08 PM »
Yeah, that's not really a new concept to me. As an atheist it reiterated my belief that religion was man made, so I definitely understand that idea. But if we all are made by God, I think we would have a natural idea that something bigger is going on. I have heard stories about explorers even recently going to islands in which people haven't had interaction with anyone outside of the island, but they have an idea of God/Christianity. They don't have a name for Jesus, but an idea that God had a son that died for them.
that's not unique to Christianity

Offline Paul Moscow

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #373 on: April 04, 2013, 07:36:36 PM »
Yeah, that's not really a new concept to me. As an atheist it reiterated my belief that religion was man made, so I definitely understand that idea. But if we all are made by God, I think we would have a natural idea that something bigger is going on. I have heard stories about explorers even recently going to islands in which people haven't had interaction with anyone outside of the island, but they have an idea of God/Christianity. They don't have a name for Jesus, but an idea that God had a son that died for them.

To me this proves the opposite actually and reminds me of the Voltaire quote,

Quote
"If God didn't exist, it would have been necessary for man to invent him,"


Offline sys

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Re: Does God Exist?
« Reply #374 on: April 04, 2013, 08:20:26 PM »
Same with natural selection.

it's not the same.  we can actually observe natural selection acting on natural populations.  like we can measure a selective pressure, and measure a change in some character in a population of organisms subject to that pressure.  measurements of before, after and an agent.  that's not the same at all.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."