Another school shooting

[Emo EMAW]

Very reasonable IMO:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2013/01/09/a-gun-control-debate-with-matt-springer/

Not very reasonable.  Maybe somewhat reasonable, somewhat unreasonable.

Which of his proposals were particularly unreasonable, and why?

3. The 2nd amendment protects us from tyranny.

Again, total fantasy. This is the big lie. There are any number of countries that don’t have our gun craziness that are not run by dictators. Tyranny is yelled so soon, and so often in these discussions that it’s meaningless. On my gun control thread the same person said that guns prevent tyranny and a minute later was talking about how Obama was a tyrant. Anyone see a problem with this? The idea that the US is anywhere near a tyrannical dictatorship is a joke. You people who think this are unreasonable and not worth arguing with, and should really consider looking at countries that actually have tyranny before getting on your free internet, in your free society, where you are free to buy hand cannons, monster trucks, and everyone has the right to vote, and you can chose any job you want, and go anywhere you want or even leave when you want, and start crying tyranny (and guess what – real tyrants don’t let you call them tyrants).

Also, the idea we can stand up to the US military? This is a legitimate threat to the military in the year 2013? Our military so far outclasses us that there is no chance some 10, or 100, or even 1000 person militia armed with AR-15s will be anything but a passing inconvenience. If a truly immoral tyrant came to power, in charge of a nuclear arsenal, sky robots, tanks and aircraft carriers, you aren’t going to stop them with your rifle. Red Dawn was not a documentary people, and you’re again in a fantasy world.

That's not one of his proposals.

Was this a basis for a proposal?

You posted a link saying this link was very reasonable.  I scanned it, said it wasn't very reasonable.  You asked me to say which "proposal" I found unseasonable.  Assumption on your part that I found a proposal unreasonable?  I C&P'd a portion of the link that I absolutely believe to be unreasonable.

[Stupid Fitz]

Very reasonable IMO:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2013/01/09/a-gun-control-debate-with-matt-springer/

Not very reasonable.  Maybe somewhat reasonable, somewhat unreasonable.

Which of his proposals were particularly unreasonable, and why?

3. The 2nd amendment protects us from tyranny.

Again, total fantasy. This is the big lie. There are any number of countries that don’t have our gun craziness that are not run by dictators. Tyranny is yelled so soon, and so often in these discussions that it’s meaningless. On my gun control thread the same person said that guns prevent tyranny and a minute later was talking about how Obama was a tyrant. Anyone see a problem with this? The idea that the US is anywhere near a tyrannical dictatorship is a joke. You people who think this are unreasonable and not worth arguing with, and should really consider looking at countries that actually have tyranny before getting on your free internet, in your free society, where you are free to buy hand cannons, monster trucks, and everyone has the right to vote, and you can chose any job you want, and go anywhere you want or even leave when you want, and start crying tyranny (and guess what – real tyrants don’t let you call them tyrants).

Also, the idea we can stand up to the US military? This is a legitimate threat to the military in the year 2013? Our military so far outclasses us that there is no chance some 10, or 100, or even 1000 person militia armed with AR-15s will be anything but a passing inconvenience. If a truly immoral tyrant came to power, in charge of a nuclear arsenal, sky robots, tanks and aircraft carriers, you aren’t going to stop them with your rifle. Red Dawn was not a documentary people, and you’re again in a fantasy world.

The military would also have to obey an order to fire on US citizens, which I don't think many would do.

[8manpick]

Really? Some guys in Afghanistan who can't even read would disagree with you, Along with every other invasion force that has tried to take it over.

Basically all they've done is be able to stay alive, which is good I guess, but they aren't exactly living normal, reasonable lives, or even lives worth living IMO.

[michigancat]

Very reasonable IMO:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2013/01/09/a-gun-control-debate-with-matt-springer/

Not very reasonable.  Maybe somewhat reasonable, somewhat unreasonable.

Which of his proposals were particularly unreasonable, and why?

3. The 2nd amendment protects us from tyranny.

Again, total fantasy. This is the big lie. There are any number of countries that don’t have our gun craziness that are not run by dictators. Tyranny is yelled so soon, and so often in these discussions that it’s meaningless. On my gun control thread the same person said that guns prevent tyranny and a minute later was talking about how Obama was a tyrant. Anyone see a problem with this? The idea that the US is anywhere near a tyrannical dictatorship is a joke. You people who think this are unreasonable and not worth arguing with, and should really consider looking at countries that actually have tyranny before getting on your free internet, in your free society, where you are free to buy hand cannons, monster trucks, and everyone has the right to vote, and you can chose any job you want, and go anywhere you want or even leave when you want, and start crying tyranny (and guess what – real tyrants don’t let you call them tyrants).

Also, the idea we can stand up to the US military? This is a legitimate threat to the military in the year 2013? Our military so far outclasses us that there is no chance some 10, or 100, or even 1000 person militia armed with AR-15s will be anything but a passing inconvenience. If a truly immoral tyrant came to power, in charge of a nuclear arsenal, sky robots, tanks and aircraft carriers, you aren’t going to stop them with your rifle. Red Dawn was not a documentary people, and you’re again in a fantasy world.

That's not one of his proposals.

Was this a basis for a proposal?

You posted a link saying this link was very reasonable.  I scanned it, said it wasn't very reasonable.  You asked me to say which "proposal" I found unseasonable.  Assumption on your part that I found a proposal unreasonable?  I C&P'd a portion of the link that I absolutely believe to be unreasonable.

thanks for the recap

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

How hilarious would it be if someone shot all the main NRA activists with completely legal guns? Like, what would the rest of the NRA say about it?

He might get one or two of them, but the rest would pump him full of lead. Those guys are all packin' heat.

[michigancat]

How hilarious would it be if someone shot all the main NRA activists with completely legal guns? Like, what would the rest of the NRA say about it?

He might get one or two of them, but the rest would pump him full of lead. Those guys are all packin' heat.

not if we hadn't gotten all tyrannical in 1934 an outlawed fully-auto weapons.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Very reasonable IMO:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2013/01/09/a-gun-control-debate-with-matt-springer/

Not very reasonable.  Maybe somewhat reasonable, somewhat unreasonable.

Which of his proposals were particularly unreasonable, and why?

3. The 2nd amendment protects us from tyranny.

Again, total fantasy. This is the big lie. There are any number of countries that don’t have our gun craziness that are not run by dictators. Tyranny is yelled so soon, and so often in these discussions that it’s meaningless. On my gun control thread the same person said that guns prevent tyranny and a minute later was talking about how Obama was a tyrant. Anyone see a problem with this? The idea that the US is anywhere near a tyrannical dictatorship is a joke. You people who think this are unreasonable and not worth arguing with, and should really consider looking at countries that actually have tyranny before getting on your free internet, in your free society, where you are free to buy hand cannons, monster trucks, and everyone has the right to vote, and you can chose any job you want, and go anywhere you want or even leave when you want, and start crying tyranny (and guess what – real tyrants don’t let you call them tyrants).

Also, the idea we can stand up to the US military? This is a legitimate threat to the military in the year 2013? Our military so far outclasses us that there is no chance some 10, or 100, or even 1000 person militia armed with AR-15s will be anything but a passing inconvenience. If a truly immoral tyrant came to power, in charge of a nuclear arsenal, sky robots, tanks and aircraft carriers, you aren’t going to stop them with your rifle. Red Dawn was not a documentary people, and you’re again in a fantasy world.

Are citizens allowed to own guns in these tyrannical countries? I would guess not, and never did, otherwise there would not be a tyrant in charge.

Remember in 2008 when Obama said he needed a citizen army as well funded as the military? What was that about?  I'm not a wacky conspiracy theorist or anything like that, but it does make one wonder. There are 300,000,000 guns in this country. I think even China would have a difficult time invading if they were inclined to do so.

[SkinnyBenny]

If there are really 300,000,000 guns in this country then we are a country full of rough ridin' douchebags.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

If there are really 300,000,000 guns in this country then we are a country full of rough ridin' douchebags.

It's true. Pretty amazing that we have so few gun murders. I guess 99.9999999999% of owners are responsible people.

[Emo EMAW]

If there are really 300,000,000 guns in this country then we are a country full of rough ridin' douchebags.

More guns than XBOX's is a good thing.

[michigancat]

Very reasonable IMO:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2013/01/09/a-gun-control-debate-with-matt-springer/

Not very reasonable.  Maybe somewhat reasonable, somewhat unreasonable.

Which of his proposals were particularly unreasonable, and why?

3. The 2nd amendment protects us from tyranny.

Again, total fantasy. This is the big lie. There are any number of countries that don’t have our gun craziness that are not run by dictators. Tyranny is yelled so soon, and so often in these discussions that it’s meaningless. On my gun control thread the same person said that guns prevent tyranny and a minute later was talking about how Obama was a tyrant. Anyone see a problem with this? The idea that the US is anywhere near a tyrannical dictatorship is a joke. You people who think this are unreasonable and not worth arguing with, and should really consider looking at countries that actually have tyranny before getting on your free internet, in your free society, where you are free to buy hand cannons, monster trucks, and everyone has the right to vote, and you can chose any job you want, and go anywhere you want or even leave when you want, and start crying tyranny (and guess what – real tyrants don’t let you call them tyrants).

Also, the idea we can stand up to the US military? This is a legitimate threat to the military in the year 2013? Our military so far outclasses us that there is no chance some 10, or 100, or even 1000 person militia armed with AR-15s will be anything but a passing inconvenience. If a truly immoral tyrant came to power, in charge of a nuclear arsenal, sky robots, tanks and aircraft carriers, you aren’t going to stop them with your rifle. Red Dawn was not a documentary people, and you’re again in a fantasy world.

Are citizens allowed to own guns in these tyrannical countries? I would guess not, and never did, otherwise there would not be a tyrant in charge.

[T]he country ranked last on the [Small Arms Survey] -- with only 0.1 guns per 100 people -- is Tunisia, which as you'll recall was still able to overthrow a longtime dictator in 2011. With only 3.5 guns per 100 people, the Egyptian population that overthrew Hosni Mubarak was hardly well armed either. On the other hand, Bahrain, where a popular revolution failed to unseat the country's monarchy, has 24.8 guns per 100 people, putting it in the top 20 worldwide. A relatively high rate of 10.7 guns per 100 people in Venezuela hasn't stopped the deterioration of democracy under Hugo Chávez.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2013/01/can-.html

[Rage Against the McKee]

I really think that we need to do something to stop kids getting murdered while they are at school. I understand that the Sandy Hook shooter was an insane adult, but at this point, Sandy Hook is an outlier and most shootings have been performed by students. I mentioned this earlier, but I still think that it's pretty obvious that kids are not mentally ready to handle a firearm. We should set a legal age to carry a gun of any type and I think it should be 21. Also, if you own a gun, anything that the gun is used for should be your responsibility, even if the gun is stolen from you. Gun owners should be required to keep their guns secure.

[Emo EMAW]

Here's a question:  should gun owners bear the administrative and law enforcement costs to ensure gun laws are followed?

[puniraptor]

Here's a question:  should gun owners bear the administrative and law enforcement costs to ensure gun laws are followed?

Yes. Tax the eff out of ammunition.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Here's a question:  should gun owners bear the administrative and law enforcement costs to ensure gun laws are followed?

Yes. Tax the eff out of ammunition.

Since we are trying to save kids, I say tax them. Not fair to tax hunters and sportsmen.

[puniraptor]

JTMHTD, is your position that mass shootings and gun violence in general is an unfortunate but unavoidable side-effect of being American?

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

JTMHTD, is your position that mass shootings and gun violence in general is an unfortunate but unavoidable side-effect of being American?

To some extent. We have developed our culture, and over the last 50 years, it has become more violent and immoral. It's just more sad when an innocent child gets caught up in our stink. My problem is this bullshit knee-jerk reaction and political posturing to do anything that will do absolutely nothing but make good people the scapegoats. Nobody gives a crap if gang bangers or white trash meth addicts kill each other, thousands per year, but throw a few kids into the equation and suddenly everyone is outraged and demands action today.

We live in a violent society, and nothing will change until we put the brakes on our immoral entertainment addiction.

[camKSU]

JTMHTD, is your position that mass shootings and gun violence in general is an unfortunate but unavoidable side-effect of being American?

To some extent. We have developed our culture, and over the last 50 years, it has become more violent and immoral. It's just more sad when an innocent child gets caught up in our stink. My problem is this bullshit knee-jerk reaction and political posturing to do anything that will do absolutely nothing but make good people the scapegoats. Nobody gives a crap if gang bangers or white trash meth addicts kill each other, thousands per year, but throw a few kids into the equation and suddenly everyone is outraged and demands action today.

We live in a violent society, and nothing will change until we put the brakes on our immoral entertainment addiction.

That is not going to happen in the short term, so maybe gun control can help bridge the gap until that massive kumbaya circle occurs

[michigancat]

Nobody gives a crap if gang bangers or white trash meth addicts kill each other, thousands per year,

I do.

My problem is this bullshit knee-jerk reaction and political posturing to do anything that will do absolutely nothing but make good people the scapegoats.

We live in a violent society, and nothing will change until we put the brakes on our immoral entertainment addiction.

LOL, speaking of bullshit.

[Domino]

Completely different thread, but did any of the posters who are against more gun laws argue that Trayvon Martin should of been carrying a firearm?

[eastcat]

I really think that we need to do something to stop kids getting murdered while they are at school. I understand that the Sandy Hook shooter was an insane adult, but at this point, Sandy Hook is an outlier and most shootings have been performed by students. I mentioned this earlier, but I still think that it's pretty obvious that kids are not mentally ready to handle a firearm. We should set a legal age to carry a gun of any type and I think it should be 21. Also, if you own a gun, anything that the gun is used for should be your responsibility, even if the gun is stolen from you. Gun owners should be required to keep their guns secure.

JFC  You people went to KSU?

Yeah, because some cop stopped him on the way to that school and said, "You're old enough to own these right?"

No.

Guns are everywhere, you can't just write some legislation in D.C. and poof goes the magic dragon all guns and gun violence is gone. None of these laws are going to stop jack crap.

red: I should be responsible for something that was forcefully taken from my possession? 

It's like our generation thinks we are the first to discover and own guns. Quick! We need new protection from some idiot lawyers in D.C. from these alien wunderweapons!!!

[star seed 7]

I really think that we need to do something to stop kids getting murdered while they are at school. I understand that the Sandy Hook shooter was an insane adult, but at this point, Sandy Hook is an outlier and most shootings have been performed by students. I mentioned this earlier, but I still think that it's pretty obvious that kids are not mentally ready to handle a firearm. We should set a legal age to carry a gun of any type and I think it should be 21. Also, if you own a gun, anything that the gun is used for should be your responsibility, even if the gun is stolen from you. Gun owners should be required to keep their guns secure.

JFC  You people went to KSU?

Yeah, because some cop stopped him on the way to that school and said, "You're old enough to own these right?"

No.

Guns are everywhere, you can't just write some legislation in D.C. and poof goes the magic dragon all guns and gun violence is gone. None of these laws are going to stop jack crap.

red: I should be responsible for something that was forcefully taken from my possession? 

It's like our generation thinks we are the first to discover and own guns. Quick! We need new protection from some idiot lawyers in D.C. from these alien wunderweapons!!!

if your dog gets out of your yard and kills a kid, i guess just too bad for that kid right?

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

I really think that we need to do something to stop kids getting murdered while they are at school. I understand that the Sandy Hook shooter was an insane adult, but at this point, Sandy Hook is an outlier and most shootings have been performed by students. I mentioned this earlier, but I still think that it's pretty obvious that kids are not mentally ready to handle a firearm. We should set a legal age to carry a gun of any type and I think it should be 21. Also, if you own a gun, anything that the gun is used for should be your responsibility, even if the gun is stolen from you. Gun owners should be required to keep their guns secure.

JFC  You people went to KSU?

Yeah, because some cop stopped him on the way to that school and said, "You're old enough to own these right?"

No.

Guns are everywhere, you can't just write some legislation in D.C. and poof goes the magic dragon all guns and gun violence is gone. None of these laws are going to stop jack crap.

red: I should be responsible for something that was forcefully taken from my possession? 

It's like our generation thinks we are the first to discover and own guns. Quick! We need new protection from some idiot lawyers in D.C. from these alien wunderweapons!!!

if your dog gets out of your yard and kills a kid, i guess just too bad for that kid right?

Horrible analogy.  What if somebody steals your car a runs over 20 kids on purpose because she lost her job at the daycare. Are you're responsible because you didn't lock it in your garage?

[star seed 7]

i get what you are saying and perhaps my analogy wasn't the best, but if you are just leaving guns on your nightstand or the kitchen counter, then you should absolutely be held responsible for what happens with them.

that also goes back around to the point that guns serve no purpose other than death.  cars actually have value for human life.

[Paul Moscow]

JTMHTD, is your position that mass shootings and gun violence in general is an unfortunate but unavoidable side-effect of being American?

To some extent. We have developed our culture, and over the last 50 years, it has become more violent and immoral. It's just more sad when an innocent child gets caught up in our stink. My problem is this bullshit knee-jerk reaction and political posturing to do anything that will do absolutely nothing but make good people the scapegoats. Nobody gives a crap if gang bangers or white trash meth addicts kill each other, thousands per year, but throw a few kids into the equation and suddenly everyone is outraged and demands action today.

We live in a violent society, and nothing will change until we put the brakes on our immoral entertainment addiction.

Homicide rates are at levels last seen in the 1960's and aren't far off from the lowest recorded levels ever which occurred in the late 1950's.



I never understand these mythical eras that people on the right swear by. The 1950's pleasantville, faux-conservative era that we must work backwards towards. Or the idea that it's still 1992 and all gun-related deaths are by crack heads and "gang-bangers".

The idea that you say we are more "immoral" a completely baseless, unprovable fantasy term, is enough to know that you prescribe to these ridiculous notions that there was one single era when the majority of the people were "good" and if we could just get back to that everything would be alright again.