Another school shooting

[nicname]

comes down to if you think owning a piece of metal is "liberty" or not.

i personally could handle owning a nuclear weapon, but i'm not sure i want everyone else in the country to have one.

literally thousands of things are illegal to own because they are a detriment to society. rednecks don't throw a fit because they don't have the rough ridin' liberty to own anthrax.

They sure don't throw a fit because they can't own drugs.

Many, also don't think that homosexuals should receive the same marital benefits from the government that heterosexuals do.  It is an inconsistency with regards to liberty.  It is easy to stand up for the things that matter to you.  It is also easy to try and use mob rule to stop others from doing things you don't agree with.

funny which sides politcally come down on the issues you mention

I don't think it's funny.  I think it sucks.  People group together with people that have similar values and then try to impose their will on those who disagree with them.  That is a far cry from what our country is supposed to be about. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

We're going backwards covering stuff we've already covered.

Sin tax - God idea.  Let's go with that - someone draw up the papers.

/thread
:tappingfootguy:

The gun nuts arent any more likely to accept registration than they are a ban, to them it's the same thing.

Also this route would have done nothing to prevent this tragedy. The mom was an affluent law abiding citizen who loved guns. Unless the registration process could have identified that she had a mentally ill son.

Maybe if there were laws on the books that she would face life in prison if anybody were to take her guns and use them, she would have kept them locked up in a way that her son would not have had access to them.

[Gooch]

We're going backwards covering stuff we've already covered.

Sin tax - God idea.  Let's go with that - someone draw up the papers.

/thread
:tappingfootguy:

The gun nuts arent any more likely to accept registration than they are a ban, to them it's the same thing.

Also this route would have done nothing to prevent this tragedy. The mom was an affluent law abiding citizen who loved guns. Unless the registration process could have identified that she had a mentally ill son.

Maybe if there were laws on the books that she would face life in prison if anybody were to take her guns and use them, she would have kept them locked up in a way that her son would not have had access to them.

Could only really happen in Civil Court right now

[8manpick]

I don't think it's funny.  I think it sucks.  People group together with people that have similar values and then try to impose their will on those who disagree with them.  That is a far cry from what our country is supposed to be about. 

I think it is exactly what our country has been about for most of it's history, regardless of what the imaginary ideals for what America was or is supposed to be say.

[OK_Cat]

when this happened i was very butthurt re: guns and gun control, but now having the weekend to think about it, i think the bigger issue is mental health, and it seems to be getting the least airtime.

this kid, and others, had a very real mental condition that drove their mood swings all over the charts at a moments notice.  it's easy to say "that bad person should burn in hell, etc etc" but we as a society obviously need more $$$ sent towards mental health research and treatment so that people with problems stay "even."

this won't happen, though.  guns are more politically dividing, and it's a lot easier to blame someone instead of find the problem and fix it.

[8manpick]

Are mental health problems more prevalent today than they were 50, 100 or 300 years ago?  Not number diagnosed, because we obviously do a much better job of that today, but are there actually more people afflicted with mental health problems?  If so, why?  Serious question.

[ChiComCat]

I think mental health could be part of a solution, but do not think it will be.  I picture cries of "the government knows better for my kids?!?!" being screamed if any meaningful piece of mental health legislation is passed for children.  Spending money on research isn't nothing, but if parents aren't willing to recognize the issues in their child or the help they need, its all for not.

I think gun and mental health legislation is needed, not that either will get accomplished.

[Paul Moscow]

Ad for the same gun used in the shootings. Ran in Maxim magazine

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Ad for the same gun used in the shootings. Ran in Maxim magazine

I would like one of those for the Apocalypse.

[HeinBallz]

Are mental health problems more prevalent today than they were 50, 100 or 300 years ago?  Not number diagnosed, because we obviously do a much better job of that today, but are there actually more people afflicted with mental health problems?  If so, why?  Serious question.

People used to be institutionalized and weren't on the streets.  Not saying we should go back to that - but I don't think this can be legislated away.  I'm afraid whatever happens will make the problem worse.  I believe everyone's rush to make government fix this problem is a pretty damn big symptom to the problem and will cause everything to escalate.  The people that knew this kid should be taking ownership, but like everything, we externalize and hope someone else will fix it for us.  Look at all of us - thinking of the best ways someone else can fix this.  I don't think it can be fixed, but I do believe something needs to be done - doing everything to help mentally disturbed seems to be the biggest win/win that will likely have the biggest impact.  Unfortunately, it likely wouldn't be very measurable and people would give up hope and jump to some knee jerk reaction the next time this happens.  And it will happen again sadly.

[Paul Moscow]

Are mental health problems more prevalent today than they were 50, 100 or 300 years ago?  Not number diagnosed, because we obviously do a much better job of that today, but are there actually more people afflicted with mental health problems?  If so, why?  Serious question.

People used to be institutionalized and weren't on the streets.  Not saying we should go back to that - but I don't think this can be legislated away.  I'm afraid whatever happens will make the problem worse.  I believe everyone's rush to make government fix this problem is a pretty damn big symptom to the problem and will cause everything to escalate.  The people that knew this kid should be taking ownership, but like everything, we externalize and hope someone else will fix it for us.  Look at all of us - thinking of the best ways someone else can fix this.  I don't think it can be fixed, but I do believe something needs to be done - doing everything to help mentally disturbed seems to be the biggest win/win that will likely have the biggest impact.  Unfortunately, it likely wouldn't be very measurable and people would give up hope and jump to some knee jerk reaction the next time this happens.  And it will happen again sadly.

Deinstitutionalization has happened but the movement has been from mental institution to incarceration not mental institution to the streets.

[HeinBallz]

Not everyone.  There are countless people with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, etc. that are everyday people not incarcerated.  Many of them don't stay on their medication and can go from sane to crazy in very little time.

[HeinBallz]

These are all people that would have been institutionalized 40-50 years ago.

[Paul Moscow]

These are all people that would have been institutionalized 40-50 years ago.

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

The answer simply isn't to re-institutionalize those who manage to avoid prison. It's to look at the reason why taking them out of the institutions in the first place hasn't worked. One reason (and you'll never agree with me) is that for-profit health insurance companies refuse to cover mental illness and if they do only cover treatment for a couple days at a time. Leaving parents or other family on their own to deal with the issue using a patchwork of public services and support groups in the community.

This is just one of about 5 reasons why it hasn't worked.

[8manpick]

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

Mental illness is very (too?) broadly defined.

[Paul Moscow]

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

Mental illness is very (too?) broadly defined.

When you're talking about Timmy who colors outside the lines and gets labeled with a behavioral issue, maybe. But otherwise, no, many of the prisoners suffer from severe mental illness, fewer but still a lot are psychotic.

Correctional facilities have become the largest provider of treatment for the mentally ill in the country.

[p1k3]

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

Mental illness is very (too?) broadly defined.

and diagnosed

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

Mental illness is very (too?) broadly defined.

and diagnosed

Yes, I would say half the human population probably has some "diagnosable" mental condition. Nearly all psychiatrists and psychologists, for sure.

[nicname]

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

Mental illness is very (too?) broadly defined.

and diagnosed

and treated with pharmaceutical drugs, specifically SSRI inhibitors.   

Institutionalize more people, be less liberal with drug application for those in society, and I bet we would see a positive change.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I would have to see some pretty hard statistics before I could support institutionalizing more people.

[nicname]

I would have to see some pretty hard statistics before I could support institutionalizing more people.

Institutionalized is a harsh word.  I guess I could say put in a home.  A lot of these people seriously need taken care of and a lot of supervision.  Plus, did you see Rain Man?  That place seemed pretty great.

[p1k3]

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

Mental illness is very (too?) broadly defined.

and diagnosed

and treated with pharmaceutical drugs, specifically SSRI inhibitors.   

Institutionalize more people, be less liberal with drug application for those in society, and I bet we would see a positive change.

that's what I mean. And yeah SSRIs eff you the eff up, btw

[felix rex]

I do not have time to catch up on this thread before work, but I will be laughing at the "school marshal" suggestion multiple times today. I can only imagine the nutbar teachers that would sign up to pack heat on the job.

"Hey, let's find an underpaid stressful job that frequently leads to frustration and discontent and give those people weapons! What's that you say, they work around kids? Perfect!"

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

I do not have time to catch up on this thread before work, but I will be laughing at the "school marshal" suggestion multiple times today. I can only imagine the nutbar teachers that would sign up to pack heat on the job.

"Hey, let's find an underpaid stressful job that frequently leads to frustration and discontent and give those people weapons! What's that you say, they work around kids? Perfect!"

Most teachers are anti-gun liberals anyway, so I don't see that as a viable deterrent.

[Cire]

Its estimated that up to 50% of the entire prison population suffers from at least one diagnosable mental illness.

Mental illness is very (too?) broadly defined.

and diagnosed

and treated with pharmaceutical drugs, specifically SSRI inhibitors.   

Institutionalize more people, be less liberal with drug application for those in society, and I bet we would see a positive change.

that's what I mean. And yeah SSRIs eff you the eff up, btw

I take one and it changed my life.