Author Topic: Another school shooting  (Read 675804 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline puniraptor

  • Tastemaker
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 21355
  • nostalgic reason
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #700 on: December 15, 2012, 07:26:12 PM »
Sys has the ideological purity to sustain his argument. His position is that it's worth it. Can't really argue someone's perception of worth.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #701 on: December 15, 2012, 07:39:24 PM »
My soft bullet argument is pretty much bullet-proof, actually.

dlew, i can't even tell what you think it'd accomplish.  or maybe i should say, how you think it'd accomplish what you think it'd accomplish.
The goal for me is to restrict the lethality of guns.  If we can do that, everyone wins.  It's compromise.  I think it's possible to modify ammunition so that people retain the right to defend themselves with guns, but give up the "right" to have the capacity to instantaneously kill another human being with a gun.  This is compromise.  This is what reasonable looks like.  And it seems to me, that this solution is far more realistic than requiring teachers and principles and lunch ladies to start packing heat or mandating everyone turn in their guns or whatever.

If we can invent dippin' dots, it seems like we could pretty easily find a less lethal ammunition substitute.  We're human beings, for crying out loud - the smartest things in the known universe.  We have airplanes and the internet and nuclear bombs.  Finding a less lethal ammunition substitute should be an easy problem to solve.

Is your goal really just to have a reason to arrest certain people?  Because if someone is planning on committing a crime, they sure as hell aren't going to be deterred by having to buy lethal bullets on the black market.  Seems like a lot of work just to accomplish absolutely nothing.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #702 on: December 15, 2012, 07:42:56 PM »
Okay so I have a serious question for concealed carry people.  What happens when a bad guy comes up to you with a gun and demands your wallet. What are the scenarios?

As I see it:
1. You let the guy steal your wallet (best option)
2. You go for your gun, the guy panics and shoots you. Takes your wallet.
3. You go for the gun, guy panics and runs away, you keep wallet.
4. You go for your gun, guy panics/has safety on/gun jams, so you kill him.
5. Let the guy steal your wallet, then you shoot him as he runs away (kinda makes you a bad person, IMO.)
6. ???

Am I way off here?

The idea is that just having the right to own a gun would make a criminal more careful about who they commit a crime against.  If you we're a criminal, and you were going to rob someone, would you rob me or SD?

Also, answer to your question: #1 - didn't even have to read any other options. 
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #703 on: December 15, 2012, 07:46:15 PM »
Okay so I have a serious question for concealed carry people.  What happens when a bad guy comes up to you with a gun and demands your wallet. What are the scenarios?

As I see it:
1. You let the guy steal your wallet (best option)
2. You go for your gun, the guy panics and shoots you. Takes your wallet.
3. You go for the gun, guy panics and runs away, you keep wallet.
4. You go for your gun, guy panics/has safety on/gun jams, so you kill him.
5. Let the guy steal your wallet, then you shoot him as he runs away (kinda makes you a bad person, IMO.)
6. ???

Am I way off here?

Do one where the scenario is guy comes into an elementary school and attacks kids.

1. Guy walks into an elementary school and shoots kids. Teacher that was brave enough to try and shoot him misses with her first two shots, shoots him in his kevlar vest with the third, then gets shot 3 times and dies. Shooter continues to kill kids.
2. Teacher doesn't panic, gets off a lucky shot and disables the shooter.
3. Teacher misses the shooter and shoots a kid. Survives the attack, but kills herself that night.

Kevlar isn't some magic shield that allows people to continue on terminator style.  Imagine what would happen to you if you got hit with a blunt object traveling at 2000 feet per second.  It would likely knock the wind out of you and break a couple of ribs.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline DQ12

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 22786
  • #TeamChestHair
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #704 on: December 15, 2012, 07:50:02 PM »
Is your goal really just to have a reason to arrest certain people?  Because if someone is planning on committing a crime, they sure as hell aren't going to be deterred by having to buy lethal bullets on the black market.  Seems like a lot of work just to accomplish absolutely nothing.
No my goal isn't to arrest certain people.  My goal is to make it harder for people to kill others, while still affording people a feasible means of self-defense involving guns.

no you're not.  how often does someone that wants a gun for self-defense fire a bullet in self defense?  i'd say the mode would be never.  you wouldn't need much a supply to keep up with that rate of use.


by the way, your no hunting thing kinda throws me for a loop.  i thought your whole idea was to propose a less radical, more feasible solution to reduce the lethality of gun violence than restricting gun ownership.  yet you want to eliminate the largest, most popular activity for which guns are used?  i think the only poster here advocating a more radical, less feasible solution is sd.  if you're going that far, why not just advocate rounding up guns?  at least guns are harder to smuggle than ammo.
Under my theory, people could still legally defend themselves using guns and legally carry and possess guns for sport (which includes, according to gun advocates, things like target shooting, clay pigeons, etc.).  It seems to me that the only thing we'd immediately sacrifice is hunting.  I'm not diametrically opposed to hunting, like I said, I'm all for bows and arrows.  Hunting isn't an unrestricted right as it stands anyways.  We already restrict where and how and when and what people hunt. 

If there is a way people could continue to hunt without using ammunition that can instantaneously kill humans, I'm all for it. 

This is a compromise.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #705 on: December 15, 2012, 07:51:46 PM »
Okay so I have a serious question for concealed carry people.  What happens when a bad guy comes up to you with a gun and demands your wallet. What are the scenarios?

As I see it:
1. You let the guy steal your wallet (best option)
2. You go for your gun, the guy panics and shoots you. Takes your wallet.
3. You go for the gun, guy panics and runs away, you keep wallet.
4. You go for your gun, guy panics/has safety on/gun jams, so you kill him.
5. Let the guy steal your wallet, then you shoot him as he runs away (kinda makes you a bad person, IMO.)
6. ???

Am I way off here?

Do one where the scenario is guy comes into an elementary school and attacks kids.

1. Guy walks into an elementary school and shoots kids. Teacher that was brave enough to try and shoot him misses with her first two shots, shoots him in his kevlar vest with the third, then gets shot 3 times and dies. Shooter continues to kill kids.
2. Teacher doesn't panic, gets off a lucky shot and disables the shooter.
3. Teacher misses the shooter and shoots a kid. Survives the attack, but kills herself that night.

Kevlar isn't some magic shield that allows people to continue on terminator style.  Imagine what would happen to you if you got hit with a blunt object traveling at 2000 feet per second.  It would likely knock the wind out of you and break a couple of ribs.

But it's a ridiculous question because guns don't belong in school - and certainly not by teachers, principles, or anyone else. 
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline wetwillie

  • goEMAW Poster of the WEEK
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 32516
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #706 on: December 15, 2012, 08:03:27 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #707 on: December 15, 2012, 08:12:44 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.

In aurora, the crazy bastard started with a shot gun.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Bloodfart

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5663
  • I don't run out of gas.
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #708 on: December 15, 2012, 09:00:54 PM »
   Oh I just remembered a positive use of a firearm in like real life awesomeness.   Did you hear about the guy in Milton, KS last year or the year before.  His house was robbed while he was away.  The guy was single and middle aged so he had alot of cool crap.  They took all this collectable stuff the guy had been collecting over the years, plus some high end firearms.  They couldn't break into the safe he had anchored to the floor though. 

   The guy comes home and finds this rough ridin' shitty scene.   So he borrows a gun from his brother for protection because all of his are gone.  He is sleeping on the couch the next night because the robbers totally wrecked his bedroom and the fuckers come back to get into his safe.  They don't notice him on the couch and he wakes up with the semi-auto high powered rifle he had borrowed laying next to him and commenced to unload on these assholes. 

    They ran out in his yard and he kept shooting at them till they drove out in a panic.  Two of the thieves had to be picked up on the highway by an ambulance and were arrested after they were cleared from the hospital.  So one guy was able to fend off 5 grown men.  He was initially charged with attempted homicied but the charges were dropped a day later. 


Online Dugout DickStone

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53907
  • BSPAC
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #709 on: December 15, 2012, 09:06:29 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.

In aurora, the crazy bastard started with a shot gun.

What did he finish with?

Offline wetwillie

  • goEMAW Poster of the WEEK
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 32516
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #710 on: December 15, 2012, 09:10:27 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.

In aurora, the crazy bastard started with a shot gun.

What did he finish with?

M15 assault rifle and glock 22 semi auto pistol.  71 people got shot, that ain't happening with a hunting tool.
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #711 on: December 15, 2012, 09:12:52 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.

In aurora, the crazy bastard started with a shot gun.

What did he finish with?

The same thing he started with - a weapon he was hell bent on assaulting with.  But in between that, he pulled out a couple of hand guns. 

Not sure where your going with this - is it okay that be murdered people with a weapon people generally hunt with?  It only became wrong when he pulled out the rifle specifically designed for firing high powered rounds in semi rapid succession at targets farther than 30 + yards away?
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #712 on: December 15, 2012, 09:13:56 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.

In aurora, the crazy bastard started with a shot gun.

What did he finish with?

M15 assault rifle and glock 22 semi auto pistol.  71 people got shot, that ain't happening with a hunting tool.

At close range, he did more damage with the "hunting" tool.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline puniraptor

  • Tastemaker
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 21355
  • nostalgic reason
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #713 on: December 15, 2012, 09:33:51 PM »
People use them to blast prairie dogs. I don't consider that really hunting though.

Online Dugout DickStone

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53907
  • BSPAC
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #714 on: December 15, 2012, 10:35:41 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.

In aurora, the crazy bastard started with a shot gun.

What did he finish with?

The same thing he started with - a weapon he was hell bent on assaulting with.  But in between that, he pulled out a couple of hand guns. 

Not sure where your going with this - is it okay that be murdered people with a weapon people generally hunt with?  It only became wrong when he pulled out the rifle specifically designed for firing high powered rounds in semi rapid succession at targets farther than 30 + yards away?

You know the difference and you know semi auto pistols with 30 round magazines are far more dangerous to multiple humans than a 3 shot Benelli

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #715 on: December 15, 2012, 10:49:14 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.

In aurora, the crazy bastard started with a shot gun.

What did he finish with?

The same thing he started with - a weapon he was hell bent on assaulting with.  But in between that, he pulled out a couple of hand guns. 

Not sure where your going with this - is it okay that be murdered people with a weapon people generally hunt with?  It only became wrong when he pulled out the rifle specifically designed for firing high powered rounds in semi rapid succession at targets farther than 30 + yards away?

You know the difference and you know semi auto pistols with 30 round magazines are far more dangerous to multiple humans than a 3 shot Benelli

You can fit 6 shotgun shells in most pumps - and those can be extended to hold over a dozen rounds with a pipe and a spring.  The point I'm still trying to make is there isn't much difference between being shot with a shotgun at close range or a hand gun from 15 feet or a rifle at 30 yards.  They're all lethal.  Which brings us back to the absurd notion of banning all weapons or the even more ridiculous talking point of rubber bullets.  Neither of these solutions would result in having any effect on actually decreasing violent deaths - which is what I think is everyone's objective.  I'm merely trying to guide this in a direction of reasonable possibility.  Although seemingly impossible, It would be easier to develop some social safety net to help troubled or depressed individuals capable of carrying out such deeds.  It's also a possible solution that would infringe on no ones individual liberties or create some drug war like witch hunt for arresting "the right kind" of people as MIR pointed out.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline DQ12

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 22786
  • #TeamChestHair
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #716 on: December 15, 2012, 11:02:15 PM »
Banning sport specific firearms is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) and will never happen. Even MIR recognizes that.  People aren't walking into places with a bolt action rifle or pump action shot gun.  The weapons to restrict are the assault rifle types and hand guns.

In aurora, the crazy bastard started with a shot gun.

What did he finish with?

The same thing he started with - a weapon he was hell bent on assaulting with.  But in between that, he pulled out a couple of hand guns. 

Not sure where your going with this - is it okay that be murdered people with a weapon people generally hunt with?  It only became wrong when he pulled out the rifle specifically designed for firing high powered rounds in semi rapid succession at targets farther than 30 + yards away?

You know the difference and you know semi auto pistols with 30 round magazines are far more dangerous to multiple humans than a 3 shot Benelli

You can fit 6 shotgun shells in most pumps - and those can be extended to hold over a dozen rounds with a pipe and a spring.  The point I'm still trying to make is there isn't much difference between being shot with a shotgun at close range or a hand gun from 15 feet or a rifle at 30 yards.  They're all lethal.  Which brings us back to the absurd notion of banning all weapons or the even more ridiculous talking point of rubber bullets.  Neither of these solutions would result in having any effect on actually decreasing violent deaths - which is what I think is everyone's objective.  I'm merely trying to guide this in a direction of reasonable possibility.  Although seemingly impossible, It would be easier to develop some social safety net to help troubled or depressed individuals capable of carrying out such deeds.  It's also a possible solution that would infringe on no ones individual liberties or create some drug war like witch hunt for arresting "the right kind" of people as MIR pointed out.
rubber bullets isn't ridiculous

 :embarrassed:


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline kim carnes

  • chingon!
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 13843
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #717 on: December 15, 2012, 11:20:25 PM »
The facts say that more gun control causes more death.   So why would we want more gun control?   That just doesn't make sense to me. 

Offline puniraptor

  • Tastemaker
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 21355
  • nostalgic reason
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #718 on: December 16, 2012, 12:14:14 AM »
The facts say that more gun control causes more death.   So why would we want more gun control?   That just doesn't make sense to me.

I think whether or not these are facts is a source of debate.

Offline nicname

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 17051
  • Deal with it.
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #719 on: December 16, 2012, 01:43:26 AM »
Dude who likes Oregon helps prevent further death by brandishing concealed-carry weapon at attacker.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html


Also, wth is wrong with these people.  These things are happening all too often.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 01:54:34 AM by nicname »
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline Stevesie60

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 17834
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #720 on: December 16, 2012, 03:33:36 AM »
Using Dlew's rubber bullets, I think people could still hunt. They'd knock an animal down and, most likely, seriously wound it. You could then walk up to it and slit it's throat. Boom, hunting.

Offline the KHAN!

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1574
  • The Prince of Darkness and Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #721 on: December 16, 2012, 06:28:41 AM »
Jesus rough ridin' Christ, some goddamn psycho with a gun is going crazy damn near daily now.  Not one rough ridin' time has one of these psychos been taken down with someone who is carrying legally.  Such a stupid talking point.
eff guns, eff the second amendment.  I'm fed up, I've had enough of this bullshit.
STFU you rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre
You know, maybe people who were carrying legally could stand a chance at stopping these events if...you know...they took place in areas where people could carry legally....you know...like not a school. Idiot.
ha ha ha ha, the best example you could find is something that happened in a war zone five years ago.  Even people who are on your side will concede that this doesn't advance your argument like at all.  LOL I win, keep sitting this out dumb ass

Israel in 2008 was not a war zone. rough ridin' idiot. Ignore the facts as always.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War Israel in 2008 was not a war zone. rough ridin' idiot. Ignore the facts as always.

Still waiting for some evidence that legal carry licenses aren't worthless.

A. The Gaza War happened in...wait for it...Gaza. This shooting occured in Jerusalem....which is not in Gaza. That's your first mistake, assfuck.
B. The Gaza War started in late December of 2008. This shooting...wait for it....hold....HOLD!!!! The shooting occurred in March of 2008. That would be...what? A whole 9 months before the Gaza War. I mean, Christ, dude...do you even read what you post?
The Scheme Doctor
Up the Banana Wall

Offline felix rex

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 8967
  • Knows what Brent did
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #722 on: December 16, 2012, 07:21:57 AM »
That's your first mistake, assfuck!
"How will I recruit to Manhattan? Well, distance. And the proud state of basketball. It start there, and then daily flights to Dallas, because I'm really good at going out. Like top five good. Ask my wife. She wants me to be happy."

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #723 on: December 16, 2012, 09:05:09 AM »
Good job bubbles.  That was only your first mistake.  People makes lots of mistakes - so knowing that was your first one must feel pretty great.
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline HeinBallz

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2868
    • View Profile
Another school shooting
« Reply #724 on: December 16, 2012, 09:19:33 AM »
I've brought it up before, but no one has responded. But why doesn't the thought of cops/military being the only ones with guns scare people?  You're more likely to run into a dick head cop than run into a mentally ill person and a mass shooting.  Most of the people I know that joined the military did it for the sole purpose of wanting to exert their authority over others.  It's been pretty well documented that a lot of cops aren't held accountable when they go apeshit and use excessive force.  How can you reason that disarming the public wouldn't encourage more corruption within the police force? 
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.