Author Topic: Another school shooting  (Read 505370 times)

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #475 on: December 15, 2012, 07:43:39 AM »
When the guns are banned, the nut cases will start strapping bombs on themselves and walking into schools and public places and detonating themselves and everyone within close proximity, or rolling vans full of explosives up to the front of a large building and detonating . . . oh wait, that's been done already.




Offline felix rex

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Another school shooting
« Reply #476 on: December 15, 2012, 07:44:29 AM »
I meant that more as a sincere question than a personal attack. I'm not even sure if or how much I disagree with you.
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Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #477 on: December 15, 2012, 07:54:20 AM »
I meant that more as a sincere question than a personal attack. I'm not even sure if or how much I disagree with you.

I am trying to post in my sucky English that I always use.
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Offline puniraptor

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Another school shooting
« Reply #478 on: December 15, 2012, 08:00:25 AM »
When the guns are banned, the nut cases will start strapping bombs on themselves and walking into schools and public places and detonating themselves and everyone within close proximity, or rolling vans full of explosives up to the front of a large building and detonating . . . oh wait, that's been done already.

This isn't an argument. Guns were never banned. McVeigh wanted to blow up a building so he build a huge bomb. Guess what. Then we instituted fertilizer and fuel controls and it hasn't happen since, while many have been caught in the act of trying.

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #479 on: December 15, 2012, 08:20:08 AM »
When the guns are banned, the nut cases will start strapping bombs on themselves and walking into schools and public places and detonating themselves and everyone within close proximity, or rolling vans full of explosives up to the front of a large building and detonating . . . oh wait, that's been done already.

This isn't an argument. Guns were never banned. McVeigh wanted to blow up a building so he build a huge bomb. Guess what. Then we instituted fertilizer and fuel controls and it hasn't happen since, while many have been caught in the act of trying.

You can still buy it though. It was not banned. That's the point. Regulate it, control guns so that they are out of the hands of the bad guys but allow for the use for responsible people that will use them properly. Again, work to find the people that want to kill other people and get them help.
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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #480 on: December 15, 2012, 08:24:38 AM »
I did not say guns "were never" banned, I said "when the guns are banned" . . . and  :lol: at you for implying there's no regulations on guns.   But I am all for more regulation on certain guns, the problems that the gun control zealots have is that they can never get past the simple reality that in many cases people break lists existing laws to obtain certain guns, that bad people will find a way to get guns to do bad things with, and anti-gunners will paint with such broad brushes that they'll only get nothing but push back. 

Most of the people caught trying to build Fertilizer bombs after OKC were simply stupid people.   Plus, that's not the only way to build a really big bomb, and you certainly don't need fertilizer to build a highly destructive strap on bomb . . . it happens nearly every day all over the world and how you build one is readily obtainable information on the Internet.   But then again bad, crazed people tend to find ways to do bad, crazy things. 


Offline steve dave

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Another school shooting
« Reply #481 on: December 15, 2012, 08:36:33 AM »
JFC with the bringing up fertilizer to argue against outlawing guns. One time in our lifetimes fertilizer was used to kill people. Farmers need fertilizer, use it for all of our betterment and nobody outside of the military and special portions of law enforcement need guns. They no longer serve a purpose. Nobody any of you know has ever used a gun for an actual beneficial purpose other than compensating for their feelings of powerlessness, every one of you know someone that has used one for a bad purpose.

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #482 on: December 15, 2012, 08:48:15 AM »
JFC with the bringing up fertilizer to argue against outlawing guns. One time in our lifetimes fertilizer was used to kill people. Farmers need fertilizer, use it for all of our betterment and nobody outside of the military and special portions of law enforcement need guns. They no longer serve a purpose. Nobody any of you know has ever used a gun for an actual beneficial purpose other than compensating for their feelings of powerlessness, every one of you know someone that has used one for a bad purpose.

I learned how to shoot at a very young age. I was thought to respect them, to treat them as if they were always loaded. To never point them at anything I did not attend to shoot. It helped me learn control, respect, and responsibility. I have never felt any lacking of powerlessness for not have one. You seem to be coming from an misguided education Steve. You are afraid of something you obviously have no understanding of. Educate your self using other resources other than anti-gun sources. I know you are smarter than this.
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Offline doom

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #483 on: December 15, 2012, 09:01:33 AM »
Right or wrong, SD's posted similar gun control talking points for years. 

Did I just hear all the guns were purchased by Lanza's mom?  wtf was an elementary school para doing with an assault rifle and two handguns that her son with a history of mental illness had access to?   :eek:  That's just a bombardment of wtf's.
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Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #484 on: December 15, 2012, 09:12:17 AM »
Right or wrong, SD's posted similar gun control talking points for years. 

Did I just hear all the guns were purchased by Lanza's mom?  wtf was an elementary school para doing with an assault rifle and two handguns that her son with a history of mental illness had access to?   :eek:  That's just a bombardment of wtf's.

Obviously Steve has had a tragic past that have involved guns. I can say if something had happened to a loved one by a gun I may not have similar feelings.

On the point that her mom owned these guns. Yea WTF. Get the feeling that she may have purchased these guns for her son because he like them. If I had a mental illness I would hope to god my folks would never have bought me any firearms.
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Offline Barry McCockner

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #485 on: December 15, 2012, 09:13:20 AM »
Quote
According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year -- one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds.
Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone "almost certainly" would have died had the gun not been used for protection -- a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone "probably" would have died if the gun hadn't been used in defense.)

In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first -- disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn't make any difference.

In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn't be called "newsworthy" by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.

In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare -- well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.

In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers -- and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm -- martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns -- gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)

In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occured in places away from the defender's home
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #486 on: December 15, 2012, 09:18:26 AM »
Humans will find ways of killing other humans. It is a said fact in life. Take away the guns, they will use bows. Take away bows they will use swords, take away swords and they will use rocks.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I'm all for reasonable  gun control law that are way stronger than the ones we have but why not we also work on helping people that feel the need to take other peoples lives. Instead of taking the time and energy in taking away guns from every person, why not take the time to work on identifying the people that want to kill and help them before they kill one person or 20.

Your reasoning fails to explain non-proliferation and Mutually Assured Destruction.  Why?

Okay, explain how those relate to one persons act of violence?

Non-proliferation only happened after we reach the current pinnacle of killing lots of people. After it was reached, of course the people that have The Bomb does not want the "little guy" to have it and use it against them. If a new weapon is developed that is more destructive than a hydrogen bomb, guess what, we will build it.

MAD is closer analogy to current concealed carry laws. Let me carry a gun because other people have guns. BS You don't need a gun to protect your self and a law to allow you to carry it. You need laws to get the guns out of the hands of people that will use it against you.

MAD is actually not analogous to concealed carry. 

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #487 on: December 15, 2012, 09:22:16 AM »
Humans will find ways of killing other humans. It is a said fact in life. Take away the guns, they will use bows. Take away bows they will use swords, take away swords and they will use rocks.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I'm all for reasonable  gun control law that are way stronger than the ones we have but why not we also work on helping people that feel the need to take other peoples lives. Instead of taking the time and energy in taking away guns from every person, why not take the time to work on identifying the people that want to kill and help them before they kill one person or 20.

Your reasoning fails to explain non-proliferation and Mutually Assured Destruction.  Why?

Okay, explain how those relate to one persons act of violence?

Non-proliferation only happened after we reach the current pinnacle of killing lots of people. After it was reached, of course the people that have The Bomb does not want the "little guy" to have it and use it against them. If a new weapon is developed that is more destructive than a hydrogen bomb, guess what, we will build it.

MAD is closer analogy to current concealed carry laws. Let me carry a gun because other people have guns. BS You don't need a gun to protect your self and a law to allow you to carry it. You need laws to get the guns out of the hands of people that will use it against you.

MAD is actually not analogous to concealed carry.

Yes it is, it is the belief by some that if people have guns that other people will not use them against them. Just like these nuts that want to arm teachers. That would have not prevented the shootings yesterday. It may have limited the deaths but not all of them.

MAD is only a matter of time to fail once technology and humanity find it okay again to nuke a country. (why a missile shield may not be the best idea in the world)
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #488 on: December 15, 2012, 09:26:04 AM »
Everyone knows which country has nukes.  That is completely different than concealed carry.

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #489 on: December 15, 2012, 09:32:30 AM »
Everyone knows which country has nukes.  That is completely different than concealed carry.
MAD was made more prevalent in knowing that we could not destroy there nukes because we did not know were they were (mobile launchers, sub based nukes) and knowing when they fired them (early detection)

Concealed carry is a lot of these same concepts. Especially not knowing were, or in this case which person in a group has the gun or if all of them do.
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Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #490 on: December 15, 2012, 09:56:22 AM »
Its certainly not feasible for the country and its citizens, crazy or hobbiest to just give up their guns.  Stricter legislation on guns and buying them would be a start.  Making it mandatory that any gun purchase include a lock would may help as well.  Some people may not use the lock but having it may help secure the guns and, though probably more likely not, may of helped to prevent yesterday's tragedy.

Of course more needs to be done for mentally ill as well as parenting.  This guy was raised by a teacher, and although he was mentally ill, I would be surprised if his teacher mother did not do almost everything in her power to get him help.  She is in a position where she would most likely understand his illness as well as the special needs it requires.  Maybe the solution is that when a minor is diagnosed with certain mental illnesses, they are required to seek specified help on the government's dime (socialized medicine! They're trying to raise our children! Communist!).

Heinballz, you keep bringing up McVeigh which is an instance of killing without a gun and with a bomb.  Most of these shootings don't show that level of planning.  You could say Columbine and maybe Aurora (hard to say til more details come out).  Guns are available to where any nut job can do this on a whim.  Yes there are different instruments of death, but I find it hard that you can't see that guns are the most efficient and readily available means to carryout psychotic whims.  You want to say that people will find other means to do this, but then why not find out?  People are generally lazy.  Seattle got crap for building suicide prevention walls on certain bridges because people thought they would just go to another bridge.  Then suicide numbers dropped greatly in the city.  People are really rough ridin' lazy.  Even a lot of mentally ill

Offline steve dave

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Another school shooting
« Reply #491 on: December 15, 2012, 10:02:01 AM »
Its certainly not feasible for the country and its citizens, crazy or hobbiest to just give up their guns. 

It absolutely is. Would it be hard? Yes. Would it be worth it? Yes. It's not like we would be the first western nation to do so.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #492 on: December 15, 2012, 10:03:56 AM »
Everyone knows which country has nukes.  That is completely different than concealed carry.
MAD was made more prevalent in knowing that we could not destroy there nukes because we did not know were they were (mobile launchers, sub based nukes) and knowing when they fired them (early detection)

Concealed carry is a lot of these same concepts. Especially not knowing were, or in this case which person in a group has the gun or if all of them do.

No.  MAD is predicated on the sheer power of nuclear weapons.  The arms race was about amassing an arsenal so large that it didn't matter if you knew where all of the nuclear weapons were, there was a mutual understanding that each country would be committing suicide if they attacked.  This was very much an open understanding and there was very little that was concealed about it, thus why the Cuban Missile was such a threat.  It disrupted the balance.

The problem is:  states almost inevitably act, or attempt to act, rationally and individuals do not.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #493 on: December 15, 2012, 10:05:58 AM »
Hundreds of Americans die at the hands of guns every single day.

the internet says 87/day.


Your drone question was dumb and you're better than that.  No one on the right side of this conversation will fall for your strawman.  You want to talk about the merits of military action start a new thread, one has nothing to do with the other.  Also more Americans are killed at the hands of gun violence everyday than people killed at the hands of US military action.  Am I missing your point or do you really not know how many people are shot in America every day?

it's neither a strawman nor a diversion.  i'd like someone to rationally explain to me why you're hellbent on starting your campaign to end death in the world by outlawing gun ownership rather than something that causes far more deaths, like vehicles, or something that has no downside, like not spending millions of dollars to fly robots over foreign countries dropping bombs on them.  there's low hanging fruit and big giant fruit all around, but you and sd are lasered in on the crabapple in the middle of the tree.

I'm not hell bent on starting a campaign to end death, I'm hell bent on starting a campaign to end gun deaths.  Gun deaths are the most savage, cowardly and preventable deaths that there are.  One of the many reasons that the car argument is a bad one is because legally operating a motor vehicle is more legislated and restricted than owning a gun.  Before you can drive a car off a lot you have to possess and show proof of a license and insurance.  You have to register your motor vehicle every year and in many states have that motor vehicle inspected.  Another flaw in the car argument is that when you get into a car and/or put your children into a car you assume all risks associated with being in that motor vehicle.  You assume the same risk if you take public transportation, or riding a bike, or even walking. 

When you drop your kids off at school, or go to work, or go to the store you aren't assuming the risk of having your face blown off by an idiot with a gun.  We' re getting to that point all in the name of personal liberty.  People should have the liberty to carry whatever weaponry they want at the expense of other people's personal liberty of the state of mind of being able to go to worship without being gunned down.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #494 on: December 15, 2012, 10:10:16 AM »
Its certainly not feasible for the country and its citizens, crazy or hobbiest to just give up their guns. 

It absolutely is. Would it be hard? Yes. Would it be worth it? Yes. It's not like we would be the first western nation to do so.

I think it would be worth it. I think there is absolutely no way to pass the legislation.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #495 on: December 15, 2012, 10:10:53 AM »

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #496 on: December 15, 2012, 10:14:18 AM »
Jesus rough ridin' Christ, some goddamn psycho with a gun is going crazy damn near daily now.  Not one rough ridin' time has one of these psychos been taken down with someone who is carrying legally.  Such a stupid talking point.

eff guns, eff the second amendment.  I'm fed up, I've had enough of this bullshit.

STFU you rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre

You know, maybe people who were carrying legally could stand a chance at stopping these events if...you know...they took place in areas where people could carry legally....you know...like not a school. Idiot.

ha ha ha ha, the best example you could find is something that happened in a war zone five years ago.  Even people who are on your side will concede that this doesn't advance your argument like at all.  LOL I win, keep sitting this out dumb ass

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #497 on: December 15, 2012, 10:16:04 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

lol, tough break there SODJ.  I made the same mistake, luckily for me I wasn't the fifth person in the same thread to make the same mistake. 

Offline doom

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #498 on: December 15, 2012, 10:18:21 AM »
Right or wrong, SD's posted similar gun control talking points for years. 

Did I just hear all the guns were purchased by Lanza's mom?  wtf was an elementary school para doing with an assault rifle and two handguns that her son with a history of mental illness had access to?   :eek:  That's just a bombardment of wtf's.

Obviously Steve has had a tragic past that have involved guns. I can say if something had happened to a loved one by a gun I may not have similar feelings.

I'm taking the lack of confirmation as confirmation. 
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Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #499 on: December 15, 2012, 10:37:04 AM »
The BBC is reporting the killer was mentally handicapped.

Wondering what the groups thoughts are on removing all MH folks from society and institutionalizing and/or executing them?  This would make sure the small percent of criminally deranged MH'ers don't do something like this ever again. Plus, if you're gonna get this done, now is the perfect time to capitalize.

Ya know, while we're forfeiting the personal liberty of 317 million people based on the actions of 1. . .
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