Author Topic: Another school shooting  (Read 507598 times)

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Offline DQ12

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #450 on: December 15, 2012, 02:40:03 AM »
Still haven't heard a compelling counter argument for why rubber bullets for citizens shouldn't be the most lethal ammo one could legally carry.   

I propose we legislate the prohibition of the citizen manufacturing or sale of ammunition as we know it.  Government wouldn't go in and take anyone's guns.  People could retain their personal liberties.  People could still defend themselves against hypothetical intruders.  If some nut job wants to melt lead or whatever to make makeshift bullets, they do so in violation of the law.  Just like if some one wants to build a bomb in his basement, he does so in violation of the law.

Seems to me to be the best compromise, the answer and, if I had to guess, probably the future.  I could be totally wrong here though.

Do you think people should be afforded the liberty to specifically carry whichever kind of ammunition they choose sys?  If so, do you think people should be afforded the liberty to carry any kind of weapon, including bombs?  I hope you don't think I'm trying to be condescending, I'm just trying to see where the limits to your advocacy for personal liberty stops.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 02:44:20 AM by Dlew12 »


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Offline steve dave

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #451 on: December 15, 2012, 02:42:00 AM »
incorrect.  my argument against it is that you would be trampling on the personal liberties of people who value those liberties greatly, in an effort to achieve a relatively paltry gain in public safety (i also agree with those that have commented on the probable futility of the effort, but i haven't advanced that argument myself).

as a part of that argument, i've queried why there is such a focus on the cause of this particular tragedy.  there are easier problems to solve, and there are greater problems to solve.  why this tragedy, this cause, if not merely as a knee-jerk emotional reaction to media coverage waived before your nose like a squirrel before a terrier's?


i do think it is nothing more than emotional writhing, and i don't think that's a convincing basis for policy decisions.

well, that makes me sad sys

Offline sys

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #452 on: December 15, 2012, 02:46:50 AM »
shut up, cowards.  you hear about massacres involving guns because we have 7 billion people in the world and a media that covers every little deadly incident in the western world as if it held some importance.

I mean, we can get down to "XX consistencys and just XX hypocrisies" if you want but ultimately this is the dumbfuck comment that started this and you cannot validate it reasonably. say it's a small portion or whatever makes you feel better but it's bullshit.

i explained that a little in one of my responses to mir.  it's really unrelated to the argument against gun control. rather an expression of the frustration i feel with the vein of cowardice running through our society.  perhaps it runs through our species, but i romanticize early times and other cultures that i do not perceive to be so obsessed with personal safety.

Quote
i'm also against the cowardice that permeates our culture.  life is risky, it is impossible to remove all risk from our lives, and the insane pursuit of safety already causes us to be incredibly less productive, happy and wealthy than we could be.  gun control again, wouldn't even be on the top 20 (prolly top 100) of a list of our hyperresponsiveness to the perception of random danger, but it's a symptom of the same disease.

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Offline sys

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #453 on: December 15, 2012, 03:00:59 AM »
Do you think people should be afforded the liberty to specifically carry whichever kind of ammunition they choose sys?  If so, do you think people should be afforded the liberty to carry any kind of weapon, including bombs?  I hope you don't think I'm trying to be condescending, I'm just trying to see where the limits to your advocacy for personal liberty stops.

hey dlew.  i'm afraid i haven't really followed your rubber bullet posts, so forgive me if i'm jumping in on ground already covered.  i don't really think rubber bullets are going to make an appreciable difference in rates of gun violence or in lethality of gun violence.  but i've never really thought about it.

i do think that people should be allowed to own metal ammunition.  and bombs.  using either to harm other people should be illegal.  philosophically, i am generally against outlawing things that are not in and of themselves harmful, but merely may facilitate an action that is harmful (e.g. guns/homicide).  the same would apply to metal ammunition and to bombs.

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Offline DQ12

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #455 on: December 15, 2012, 03:16:07 AM »
Do you think people should be afforded the liberty to specifically carry whichever kind of ammunition they choose sys?  If so, do you think people should be afforded the liberty to carry any kind of weapon, including bombs?  I hope you don't think I'm trying to be condescending, I'm just trying to see where the limits to your advocacy for personal liberty stops.

hey dlew.  i'm afraid i haven't really followed your rubber bullet posts, so forgive me if i'm jumping in on ground already covered.  i don't really think rubber bullets are going to make an appreciable difference in rates of gun violence or in lethality of gun violence.  but i've never really thought about it.

i do think that people should be allowed to own metal ammunition.  and bombs.  using either to harm other people should be illegal.  philosophically, i am generally against outlawing things that are not in and of themselves harmful, but merely may facilitate an action that is harmful (e.g. guns/homicide).  the same would apply to metal ammunition and to bombs.
Regarding your first point, rubber bullets may not curb anything.  Admittedly, I know little about guns. 

It seems to me though, that the issue is that people want to be able to defend themselves with guns and use guns for other sport related pastimes.  But those opposed to guns aren't really opposed to either of those ends because, without more, those ends are absolutely without wrong.  Instead, those "against guns," are really just interested in curbing the danger of guns, which in its own right, is also a blameless pursuit.  If pressed, I imagine most gun owners aren't consciously advocating that guns maintain their instantaneously lethal nature, but rather only that their guns' maintain whatever utility (self-defense, sport) they have for them.  Is strictly "instantaneously lethal" a benefit gun owners would fight to protect? I don't think so, but I suppose that could be up for discussion.   This is, of course, based on the assumption that "self-defense" is not necessarily strictly equal to "instantaneous death."

So if there was some way to manipulate guns in such a way to make them unable to instantaneously kill humans, but still make them adequate for morally permissible self-defense and sport related purposes, we could keep all sides relatively happy.  I don't know whether or not rubber bullets would meet this end, but it's almost 2013 and we have robots on Mars.  I imagine we could concoct some form of ammunition that could work.

Also, I don't know how this would fit with hunting.

Regarding your second point, I respect your philosophy and the consistency with which you apply it, but I fundamentally disagree with it.  I'd love to ask you about your application of it to some hypothetical situations, but that's another thread for another day.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 10:13:20 AM by Dlew12 »


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Offline nicname

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #456 on: December 15, 2012, 03:24:07 AM »
Some talk of mental disorders, etc. in this thread and related to gun control.  Just thought I pass this along.

http://www.naturalnews.com/038322_DSM-5_psychiatry_false_diagnosis.html
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Offline nicname

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #457 on: December 15, 2012, 03:52:58 AM »
Kid did not kill his dad.

Dad is a VP of Taxes for GE Energy Financial Services in Stamford, Conn.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/article/Father-of-Newtown-shooter-lives-in-Stamford-4119559.php

sorry if luked
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 03:57:00 AM by nicname »
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Offline the KHAN!

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #458 on: December 15, 2012, 05:11:12 AM »
Jesus rough ridin' Christ, some goddamn psycho with a gun is going crazy damn near daily now.  Not one rough ridin' time has one of these psychos been taken down with someone who is carrying legally.  Such a stupid talking point.

eff guns, eff the second amendment.  I'm fed up, I've had enough of this bullshit.

STFU you rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre

You know, maybe people who were carrying legally could stand a chance at stopping these events if...you know...they took place in areas where people could carry legally....you know...like not a school. Idiot.
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Offline Cire

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #459 on: December 15, 2012, 06:18:06 AM »
The second amendment says "well regulated" , clearly that it's not the case right now and that needs to be the starring point for a national conversation. 

Offline felix rex

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Another school shooting
« Reply #460 on: December 15, 2012, 06:31:21 AM »
Sys is like Redeker in WWZ.
"How will I recruit to Manhattan? Well, distance. And the proud state of basketball. It start there, and then daily flights to Dallas, because I'm really good at going out. Like top five good. Ask my wife. She wants me to be happy."

Offline felix rex

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Another school shooting
« Reply #461 on: December 15, 2012, 06:33:22 AM »
Also, lol at the idea that my 2nd Amendment rifle will protect me from a hypothetical tyrannical version of our government that already has flying death robots.
"How will I recruit to Manhattan? Well, distance. And the proud state of basketball. It start there, and then daily flights to Dallas, because I'm really good at going out. Like top five good. Ask my wife. She wants me to be happy."

Offline felix rex

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Another school shooting
« Reply #462 on: December 15, 2012, 06:33:51 AM »
Sys is like Redeker in WWZ.

Meant this as a compliment btw
"How will I recruit to Manhattan? Well, distance. And the proud state of basketball. It start there, and then daily flights to Dallas, because I'm really good at going out. Like top five good. Ask my wife. She wants me to be happy."

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #463 on: December 15, 2012, 06:48:26 AM »
If your goal is to eliminate gun violence, then fine.  What about all violence? these tragedies can be carried out with many different tools.

yeah, I am very fine with this. start with the big ones and work down the list.

Sounds good, Lets ban Handguns first (don't like them any way) then "Other Weapons"
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/weapons.cfm

« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 06:52:15 AM by "storm"nut »
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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #464 on: December 15, 2012, 06:56:09 AM »
i'm far more articulate and intelligent than heinz and storm, yet all the libtards argue with them instead of me.

Because they accept that human life is worth preserving and you don't.  It makes using a moral calculus predicated on preserving life in a discussion about gun restrictions kind of pointless.

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #465 on: December 15, 2012, 07:02:15 AM »
Humans will find ways of killing other humans. It is a said fact in life. Take away the guns, they will use bows. Take away bows they will use swords, take away swords and they will use rocks.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I'm all for reasonable  gun control law that are way stronger than the ones we have but why not we also work on helping people that feel the need to take other peoples lives. Instead of taking the time and energy in taking away guns from every person, why not take the time to work on identifying the people that want to kill and help them before they kill one person or 20.
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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #466 on: December 15, 2012, 07:03:01 AM »
Humans will find ways of killing other humans. It is a said fact in life. Take away the guns, they will use bows. Take away bows they will use swords, take away swords and they will use rocks.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I'm all for reasonable  gun control law that are way stronger than the ones we have but why not we also work on helping people that feel the need to take other peoples lives. Instead of taking the time and energy in taking away guns from every person, why not take the time to work on identifying the people that want to kill and help them before they kill one person or 20.

Your reasoning fails to explain non-proliferation and Mutually Assured Destruction.  Why?

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #467 on: December 15, 2012, 07:14:16 AM »
Humans will find ways of killing other humans. It is a said fact in life. Take away the guns, they will use bows. Take away bows they will use swords, take away swords and they will use rocks.

I have said it before and I will say it again, I'm all for reasonable  gun control law that are way stronger than the ones we have but why not we also work on helping people that feel the need to take other peoples lives. Instead of taking the time and energy in taking away guns from every person, why not take the time to work on identifying the people that want to kill and help them before they kill one person or 20.

Your reasoning fails to explain non-proliferation and Mutually Assured Destruction.  Why?

Okay, explain how those relate to one persons act of violence?

Non-proliferation only happened after we reach the current pinnacle of killing lots of people. After it was reached, of course the people that have The Bomb does not want the "little guy" to have it and use it against them. If a new weapon is developed that is more destructive than a hydrogen bomb, guess what, we will build it.

MAD is closer analogy to current concealed carry laws. Let me carry a gun because other people have guns. BS You don't need a gun to protect your self and a law to allow you to carry it. You need laws to get the guns out of the hands of people that will use it against you.
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Offline felix rex

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Another school shooting
« Reply #468 on: December 15, 2012, 07:22:44 AM »
Storm, are you really drunk right now? Or did kcnut hack your account?
"How will I recruit to Manhattan? Well, distance. And the proud state of basketball. It start there, and then daily flights to Dallas, because I'm really good at going out. Like top five good. Ask my wife. She wants me to be happy."

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #469 on: December 15, 2012, 07:26:47 AM »
Storm, are you really drunk right now? Or did kcnut hack your account?

No, Why do people no want to help the people that want to kill people. No people would rather unemployed millions of people, make millions of more criminals, and not solve the people of people wanting to kill people.
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Offline doom

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #472 on: December 15, 2012, 07:41:21 AM »
My father was killed in a mass homicide/suicide, and that was 25+ years ago.  The .45's for that shooting were taken from a Nat'l guard armory.  Mass shootings aren't really a new problem and there's no magic bullet solution. 

I keep a gun to protect myself and I think it's hard for people to rationalize not being able to.  Even if you outlaw guns or restrict sales and ammo, they will be gettable for decades, and how do I trust I will be safe until then?  My father wasn't.

I'm also an elementary school teacher, and while I desire to feel safe, and the idea of packing around kids is among the 5 worst in the history of the world.  This is one of those things where you really can't legislate it away.  I think HB is right about society.  If you don't start there you are doomed to fail.   
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Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #473 on: December 15, 2012, 07:41:59 AM »
Storm, are you really drunk right now? Or did kcnut hack your account?

Also, why do people always use personal attacks against people with different views. I am as guilty as the next person but while dilute your own argument by using them. I am not as articulate as I wish I was but I still have an opinion I want to express.
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Offline doom

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Re: Another school shooting
« Reply #474 on: December 15, 2012, 07:43:27 AM »
Storm, are you really drunk right now? Or did kcnut hack your account?

Also, why do people always use personal attacks against people with different views. I am as guilty as the next person but while dilute your own argument by using them. I am not as articulate as I wish I was but I still have an opinion I want to express.

way to say yes, without saying yes
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