Official Klein for Heisman (Kleinsman) Thread

[AbeFroman]

MIR should win the Heisman for BBS'ing

[Stevesie60]

The funny thing about all of this is if Johnny had the exact same numbers, but McCarron threw a TD pass on the last play of the A&M vs. Bama game instead of an INT, I don't think we would have ever heard about Johnny Football.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I think it's also worth mentioning that Mike Leach has had countless QBs put up monster stats but they were not considered at all because they were "system QB's." Johnny Manziel runs a similar offense, albeit he is more mobile than those QB's, yet I have not heard the "system QB" talking point a single time. The Texas A&M offense has run so many more plays than the Kansas State offense that any comparison of raw numbers between Manziel and Klein really is not fair. Maybe we have moved beyond the "system QB" distinction, which would be a good thing, imo.

[GoodForAnother]

I think it's also worth mentioning that Mike Leach has had countless QBs put up monster stats but they were not considered at all because they were "system QB's." Johnny Manziel runs a similar offense, albeit he is more mobile than those QB's, yet I have not heard the "system QB" talking point a single time. The Texas A&M offense has run so many more plays than the Kansas State offense that any comparison of raw numbers between Manziel and Klein really is not fair. Maybe we have moved beyond the "system QB" distinction, which would be a good thing, imo.

the system hasn't been there long enough for the media to figure it out.  but plenty of system qbs have won the heisman.  rg3, jason white, sam bradford, etc.

[Ira Hayes]

A&M only played three good teams:

Florida 23-30 for 173 yds 0 INT 0 TD, 17-60 yds 1 TD - LOSS
LSU 29-56 for 276 yds 3 INT 0 TD, 17-27 yds 0 TD - LOSS
Bama 24-31 for 253 yds 0 INT 2 TD, 18-92 yds 0 TD - WIN

That LSU game is atrocious.

[MakeItRain]

I am not going to get into all of this again I took apart these talking points earlier in the week. Dlew if you're going to call people dumbasses and the such you need to reassess a couple of things, namely that Klein had a bad game against Baylor thus disqualifying him/not making him worthy to win the Heisman.

Klein did not have a horrible game against Baylor.  Not using the standard of other Klein games this season, not using the standard of Manziel games, and not using the standard by other dual threat QBs who historically won the Heisman minus Cam Newton.  Klein had 3 TDs and nearly 300 yards passing, you won't have to look hard to find worse games by the three groups I mentioned in the previous sentence.  Yes, he threw three picks which was his high, but goodness it isn't historically awful and we shouldn't make it out to be.  And losing late also historically doesn't matter as far as winning the Heisman so please don't mention that again.

This isn't about whether Klein is worthy of winning the Heisman.  Their standard is ambiguous, and there have been recent winners with worse numbers.  There is always an argument for who is or isn't worthy that can be made for anyone.  This is about people using lazy arguments to justify who they think is best, it angers me when some dumbass fat, cheet-o eating sports writer does this.  It makes me rage filled when a K-Stater uses the same dumb argument to try to cut down other K-Staters who want something good for their school and a guy who busted his ass for five years.

Would I have voted for Klein in I lived in Seattle and unaffiliated with Kansas State, I don't know.  What I do know is that I wouldn't make my decision based on the fact that one of the candidates had a "bad" game in which he threw for 300 yards and had three scores and then vote for a guy who had two "bad" games where he threw for a combined 449 yards and 0 passing TDs in an offense predicated upon him throwing, a lot.  I can also say with fair certainty that if you were a heisman voter unattached to a school and unswayed by media coverage that if you had a guy with Klein's profile leading going into the Baylor game you wouldn't drop him for the game that he had when he had 3 or 4 worse before that one.  Also did you know that in the Alabama game he threw for less yards and the same amount of TD passes than Klein did against Baylor?

What I'm saying is stop trying to sound intellectually superior to other fans when the method of making a decision is logically flawed and just as based on emotion as the people you are railing against.

Klein had a bad game against Baylor man.  Dress it up however you want. 

27 of 50, with 3 interceptions, 2 passing TDs, for 286 yards and 17 rushes, for 39 yards "in an offense predicated on" klein running the football, and not screwing up is bad.  Bad. Bad. Bad.  Against the statistical worst defense in the country.  He played very bad against Baylor. 

But hell, we can toss out the "bad" characterization anyways.  Bottom line is, the loss kept K-State out of the national championship game.  Like i've been saying, no national championship, no crazy numbers, no heisman.

Now, having said that, Klein had a fantastic season.  It was great.  I love him. etc., but in addition to losing (against one of the worst defenses in the country), Klein also didn't have eye-popping numbers this season. 

People make out the Heisman to be this super arbitrary thing where no one can possibly guess who will win, but really, it's not that difficult to see that you either (1) have to lead your team to the national championship, or (2) have absurd statistics. 

RGIII: 4200 yards passing, 700 yards rushing, 47 TDs NO NC APPEARANCE
Newton: 2850 yards passing, 1500 yards rushing, 50 TDs + NC appearance
Ingram: 1700 yards rushing, 334 receiving, 20 TDs + NC appearance
Bradford: 4700 yards passing, 55 TDs + NC appearance
Tebow: 3300 yards passing, 900 yards rushing, 55 TDs NO NC APPEARANCE
Troy Smith: 2500 yards passing, 230 yards rushing, 31 TDs + NC appearance

The list goes on. 

Klein: 2500 yards passing, 890 yards rushing, 37 TDs, NO NC APPEARANCE.
Manziel: 3400 yards passing, 1200 yards rushing, 43 TDs, NO NC APPEARANCE

So addressing Meister's comment about how there's "no formula" in determining who is going to win the heisman, is true, to an extent.  But there IS a formula in determining who won't win the Heisman.

To the bolded point, so?

To the rest of your point are you saying that if K-State went to the national championship game despite the Baylor loss, Klein would have won?  The entirety of your post indicates this is what you think, but the first sentence of the post under cuts this point.  If is obvious that we wouldn't have played for the national championship no matter who we lost to no matter when we lost in the season.  If you or anyone else uses that as a criteria then you lose the ability to mock anyone else given the arbitrary way national championship games are selected.

[MakeItRain]

I think it's also worth mentioning that Mike Leach has had countless QBs put up monster stats but they were not considered at all because they were "system QB's." Johnny Manziel runs a similar offense, albeit he is more mobile than those QB's, yet I have not heard the "system QB" talking point a single time. The Texas A&M offense has run so many more plays than the Kansas State offense that any comparison of raw numbers between Manziel and Klein really is not fair. Maybe we have moved beyond the "system QB" distinction, which would be a good thing, imo.

the system hasn't been there long enough for the media to figure it out.  but plenty of system qbs have won the heisman.  rg3, jason white, sam bradford, etc.

You're both right.  The "system QB" talking point only gets used when the media deems the QB isn't sexy enough for whatever purpose.  Andre Ware won the Heisman as a system QB that put up huge numbers nearly 25 years ago.  LOL at thinking the system QB talking point will be eliminated anytime soon.  People have discounted RBs in some years because they were too heavily relied upon by their teams.

[Cartierfor3]

The funny thing about all of this is if Johnny had the exact same numbers, but McCarron threw a TD pass on the last play of the A&M vs. Bama game instead of an INT, I don't think we would have ever heard about Johnny Football.

We all partied so hard when it happened.  Weird that it bit us in the ass. 

[DQ12]

To the bolded point, so?

To the rest of your point are you saying that if K-State went to the national championship game despite the Baylor loss, Klein would have won?  The entirety of your post indicates this is what you think, but the first sentence of the post under cuts this point.  If is obvious that we wouldn't have played for the national championship no matter who we lost to no matter when we lost in the season.  If you or anyone else uses that as a criteria then you lose the ability to mock anyone else given the arbitrary way national championship games are selected.

I just thought the bolded point was funny.  Meant to address it.

Anyway, I'm saying that if K-State went to the national championship game despite the Baylor loss, there is definitely an argument that could be made that Klein should win the Heisman.  According to the list of former winners I posted, being one of the top two BCS teams matters a lot. 

[MakeItRain]

To the bolded point, so?

To the rest of your point are you saying that if K-State went to the national championship game despite the Baylor loss, Klein would have won?  The entirety of your post indicates this is what you think, but the first sentence of the post under cuts this point.  If is obvious that we wouldn't have played for the national championship no matter who we lost to no matter when we lost in the season.  If you or anyone else uses that as a criteria then you lose the ability to mock anyone else given the arbitrary way national championship games are selected.

I just thought the bolded point was funny.  Meant to address it.

Anyway, I'm saying that if K-State went to the national championship game despite the Baylor loss, there is definitely an argument that could be made that Klein should win the Heisman.  According to the list of former winners I posted, being one of the top two BCS teams matters a lot.

Is that okay with you?  It isn't with me.  BTW I disagree with your assessment that the voters are punishing Klein because K-State isn't playing for the national championship, and that will absolutely bear itself out if Manziel wins.  Manziel would have been Manziel if the three teams above us lost in the last two weeks of the season, he and his team would have had no effect whatsoever with that.

Sidenote...Did you know that when Ty Detmer won the Heisman his regular season wasn't over?  When the heisman was being awarded to him, he and BYU were busy losing to Hawaii in the last game of their regular season.

[EMAWmeister]

Regardless, I think Manziel will go down as one of the more underwhelming Heisman Trophy winners.

[PoetWarrior]

Be near www.youtube.com at the end of the ceremony.

[TheHamburglar]

Regardless, I think Manziel will go down as one of the more underwhelming Heisman Trophy winners.

There's about 13 of the last 20 Heisman winners I can't think of because most of them are underwhelming because its a bullshit award that's nothing more than a measuring stick of who is the biggest hype machine at the end November.  The bullshit hype part of it goes all the way back to Doug Flutie. It means absolutely nothing about recognizing the best player in the country. Hell, Charlie Ward won it because he also played basketball.

[MakeItRain]

When Flutie won it was about who was on TV the most.  Football on the eastern seaboard meant a whole lot more then than it does now.

[EMAWesome]

Be near www.youtube.com at the end of the ceremony.

 

[AbeFroman]

Be near www.youtube.com at the end of the ceremony.

Mother of God.... Just when I was getting excited about watching the Bo Jackson 30 for 30, you go and do this

[Katpappy]

Exactly, Klein had 1 bad game thats it. Maybe thats where my butthurtness stems from. All it took was that one bad game for everyone to forget the rest of the season then the ESPN hype machine was in full effect for JM. I just hope Teo steals it from him somehow

YES.  One bad game was all it needed to take for Klein this year. 

Everyone was willing to look past his otherwise less than mindblowing statistics (that heisman winners usually have) if he could have gotten K-State to a national championship.  Klein's whole deal is "he's consistent and he's a winner," well against Baylor, he blew it. 

We played fewer teams that are horrible.  He played more teams that are better than our best team.  He also had far better numbers than Klein.

A&M lost 2 of those 3....K-State won both

So that somehow makes K-State's schedule harder?

No, the fact we played pretty much double the amount of bowl teams makes it a harder schedule.

Right, but "bowl teams" is just another metric.  Why should "bowl teams" be more important than "BCS bowl teams," or "currently ranked" teams, or "10 win" teams? 

Granted, K-State's SOS is 13 and A&M's is 29th.  BUT that difference is relatively marginal and Klein has far worse statistics.  SOS is only part of it.  Wins is only a part of it.  But only a part, that's why Golden at ND (8th SOS, undefeated) isn't a heisman contender.

You have to be in the NC or have the numbers.  Klein doesn't have either.  Manziel does.

I am not going to get into all of this again I took apart these talking points earlier in the week.  Dlew if you're going to call people dumbasses and the such you need to reassess a couple of things, namely that Klein had a bad game against Baylor thus disqualifying him/not making him worthy to win the Heisman.

Klein did not have a horrible game against Baylor.  Not using the standard of other Klein games this season, not using the standard of Manziel games, and not using the standard by other dual threat QBs who historically won the Heisman minus Cam Newton.  Klein had 3 TDs and nearly 300 yards passing, you won't have to look hard to find worse games by the three groups I mentioned in the previous sentence.  Yes, he threw three picks which was his high, but goodness it isn't historically awful and we shouldn't make it out to be.  And losing late also historically doesn't matter as far as winning the Heisman so please don't mention that again.

This isn't about whether Klein is worthy of winning the Heisman.  Their standard is ambiguous, and there have been recent winners with worse numbers.  There is always an argument for who is or isn't worthy that can be made for anyone.  This is about people using lazy arguments to justify who they think is best, it angers me when some dumbass fat, cheet-o eating sports writer does this.  It makes me rage filled when a K-Stater uses the same dumb argument to try to cut down other K-Staters who want something good for their school and a guy who busted his ass for five years.

Would I have voted for Klein in I lived in Seattle and unaffiliated with Kansas State, I don't know.  What I do know is that I wouldn't make my decision based on the fact that one of the candidates had a "bad" game in which he threw for 300 yards and had three scores and then vote for a guy who had two "bad" games where he threw for a combined 449 yards and 0 passing TDs in an offense predicated upon him throwing, a lot.  I can also say with fair certainty that if you were a heisman voter unattached to a school and unswayed by media coverage that if you had a guy with Klein's profile leading going into the Baylor game you wouldn't drop him for the game that he had when he had 3 or 4 worse before that one.  Also did you know that in the Alabama game he threw for less yards and the same amount of TD passes than Klein did against Baylor?

What I'm saying is stop trying to sound intellectually superior to other fans when the method of making a decision is logically flawed and just as based on emotion as the people you are railing against.

I like Dlew 12, but MIR just made one hell of an assessment and I got to totally agree.  Dlew 12, I know it's popular to put down state players on this board; but goddamm give this young man a break.  He put his heart into this team and played hurt last season and still won games that we shouldn't have.

[MadCat]

Be near www.youtube.com at the end of the ceremony.

 

[kso_FAN]

The funny thing about all of this is if Johnny had the exact same numbers, but McCarron threw a TD pass on the last play of the A&M vs. Bama game instead of an INT, I don't think we would have ever heard about Johnny Football.

We all partied so hard when it happened.  Weird that it bit us in the ass.

We thought aTm was forgiven. We were wrong.

[DQ12]

I just thought the bolded point was funny.  Meant to address it.

Anyway, I'm saying that if K-State went to the national championship game despite the Baylor loss, there is definitely an argument that could be made that Klein should win the Heisman.  According to the list of former winners I posted, being one of the top two BCS teams matters a lot.

Is that okay with you?  It isn't with me.  BTW I disagree with your assessment that the voters are punishing Klein because K-State isn't playing for the national championship, and that will absolutely bear itself out if Manziel wins.  Manziel would have been Manziel if the three teams above us lost in the last two weeks of the season, he and his team would have had no effect whatsoever with that.

Sidenote...Did you know that when Ty Detmer won the Heisman his regular season wasn't over?  When the heisman was being awarded to him, he and BYU were busy losing to Hawaii in the last game of their regular season.

Objectively speaking, yeah, going to the NC is very important.  Just ask Troy Smith up there.  And I guess that metric is okay with me inasmuch as wins being counted as part of the "formula" are okay with me.  Hypothetically, we all would've been okay with "NC appearance" being included in Klein's resume if he went to the national championship.  Being one of the top two teams in the country is a tough thing to do.  K-State being in the national title hunt was the main reason Klein received as much hype as he did - because again, it wasn't due to his numbers.  I guess I thought we all knew Klein was going to have to keep winning to get the Heisman. 

Re. Teo, I will be incredibly surprised if he wins. 

I get that Manziel would always have been Manziel if K-State was in the national championship game, and I'm not saying Klein definitely would have won.  But he at least would have had a better argument.  Because he fits the very simple formula I discussed above.  A lot more people would be arguing for Klein in the heisman race than there are currently.  I'm not saying he'd win, but he'd at least have an argument.

Also, that's hilarious about Detmer. 

[WillieWatanabe]

are the last 4 pages worth reading? tia

[DQ12]

I like Dlew 12, but MIR just made one hell of an assessment and I got to totally agree.  Dlew 12, I know it's popular to put down state players on this board; but goddamm give this young man a break.  He put his heart into this team and played hurt last season and still won games that we shouldn't have.

Pointing out that Klein "played very bad" against baylor and "blew it" is putting him down?

Is this really contentious stuff? 

[Ira Hayes]

Collin doesn't have the numbers to win it.  And if you don't have the numbers to win it, but you still win it, that is really bad. Collin would be mocked and critiqued and laughed at for the rest of his life. Jason White, version 2.0, but maybe worse if he doesn't fade into obscurity like White did.

Honestly, Collin doesn't want it and you shouldn't either.

If Manziel wins, we are going to witness his life turn into a dumpster fire. Entertaining, but catastrophic and very sad in the end.

I'm rooting for Te'o. You should, too. He's an awesome dude. Almost as good at linebacker as Arthur.

[Skipper44]

Ya on Manziel becoming Johnny Dumpsterfire - that is why I think Teo had a real shot

[EMAWesome]

:Tucks in Shirt:

I, for one, will be doing my damndest to put the butthurt aside and bask in the glorious attention that will be placed on KSU by having one of the three finalists in this thing. Will we be getting the same amount of exposure as ND or A&M? Probably not, but we'll be getting a damn sight more than any other Big XII team will be receiving tomorrow.

Enjoy the show, and enjoy Johnny Football making guys like Ty Detmer, Jason White, Danny Weurfel & Gino Toretta look like distinguished Heisman winners over the next handful of years.