Official Klein for Heisman (Kleinsman) Thread

[EllRobersonisInnocent]

Also if A&M gets one of their L's later in the year things would be different. Obviously the timing of the Baylor L was just as bad as the performance

[DQ12]

The only issue that I have is that it seems like when we have the best player (Bishop, Michael Beasley), the award goes to a player just like Collin Klein. Now that we have the "hard worker" on our team, we still do not get the award.

Ricky Williams rushed for 194 yards a game in 98, man.

[Unruly]

So Manziel going 2-2 against teams that are over .500 is better than Klein going 7-1 against teams that are over .500.


Got it.

[EllRobersonisInnocent]

Eric Crouch won it with 7 td's 10 int's 1400 yds passing/1100 rushing 18td's over Rex Grossman 3900 yds passing 34 td's.

[BMWWcat]

Ricky Williams rushed for 194 yards a game in 98, man.
[/quote]

yeah, with nearly 400 friggin' carries...

[Rage Against the McKee]

The only issue that I have is that it seems like when we have the best player (Bishop, Michael Beasley), the award goes to a player just like Collin Klein. Now that we have the "hard worker" on our team, we still do not get the award.

Ricky Williams rushed for 194 yards a game in 98, man.

Bishop averaged 300 yards per game and played on a much better team.

[DQ12]

So Manziel going 2-2 against teams that are over .500 is better than Klein going 7-1 against teams that are over .500.


Got it.

What's Golden's record against teams that are over 500?

Like I've said, wins are only a part of it, you dumbass. 

[deputy dawg]

Charles Davis on Fox did a "why each candidate should win the Heisman" segment, and one of the reasons he gave for Manti Te'o winning was that his grandmother and some other female relative died within weeks of one another during the season.  Warrants T&P's for sure.

[DQ12]

Eric Crouch won it with 7 td's 10 int's 1400 yds passing/1100 rushing 18td's over Rex Grossman 3900 yds passing 34 td's.

Right...and what bowl game did Nebraska play in that season?

[Bloodfart]

Thank you Dlew for preparing my butt.  I am such a homer when looking objectively at my ksucats.  Though I'm still holding out hope against all odds.   

[Unruly]

So Manziel going 2-2 against teams that are over .500 is better than Klein going 7-1 against teams that are over .500.


Got it.

What's Golden's record against teams that are over 500?

Like I've said, wins are only a part of it, you dumbass.

Put Klein against that competition and he will have similar if not better numbers.  Put Manziel against Kleins competition and watch a kid crap the bed.

[EMAWmeister]

You have to be in the NC or have the numbers.  Klein doesn't have either.  Manziel does.

This is a very astute comment in my opinion.

Not really.  Let's quit acting like there is some formula for winning the Heisman.  It's the biggest eye-test in sports. The criteria for what makes a Heisman winner change every year to adapt to the current situation.

[Frankenklein]

   What was once an award reserved for those who had stellar college careers has been reduced to an award given for a "Moment" pffttt.

[broXcore]

dlew providing some sanity in this thread

thank you dlew

[EMAWmeister]

   What was once an award reserved for those who had stellar college careers has been reduced to an award given for a "Moment" pffttt.

The "Heisman Moment" talking point became a near necessity somewhere along the way.

[MakeItRain]

Exactly, Klein had 1 bad game thats it. Maybe thats where my butthurtness stems from. All it took was that one bad game for everyone to forget the rest of the season then the ESPN hype machine was in full effect for JM. I just hope Teo steals it from him somehow

YES.  One bad game was all it needed to take for Klein this year. 

Everyone was willing to look past his otherwise less than mindblowing statistics (that heisman winners usually have) if he could have gotten K-State to a national championship.  Klein's whole deal is "he's consistent and he's a winner," well against Baylor, he blew it. 

We played fewer teams that are horrible.  He played more teams that are better than our best team.  He also had far better numbers than Klein.

A&M lost 2 of those 3....K-State won both

So that somehow makes K-State's schedule harder?

No, the fact we played pretty much double the amount of bowl teams makes it a harder schedule.

Right, but "bowl teams" is just another metric.  Why should "bowl teams" be more important than "BCS bowl teams," or "currently ranked" teams, or "10 win" teams? 

Granted, K-State's SOS is 13 and A&M's is 29th.  BUT that difference is relatively marginal and Klein has far worse statistics.  SOS is only part of it.  Wins is only a part of it.  But only a part, that's why Golden at ND (8th SOS, undefeated) isn't a heisman contender.

You have to be in the NC or have the numbers.  Klein doesn't have either.  Manziel does.

I am not going to get into all of this again I took apart these talking points earlier in the week.  Dlew if you're going to call people dumbasses and the such you need to reassess a couple of things, namely that Klein had a bad game against Baylor thus disqualifying him/not making him worthy to win the Heisman.

Klein did not have a horrible game against Baylor.  Not using the standard of other Klein games this season, not using the standard of Manziel games, and not using the standard by other dual threat QBs who historically won the Heisman minus Cam Newton.  Klein had 3 TDs and nearly 300 yards passing, you won't have to look hard to find worse games by the three groups I mentioned in the previous sentence.  Yes, he threw three picks which was his high, but goodness it isn't historically awful and we shouldn't make it out to be.  And losing late also historically doesn't matter as far as winning the Heisman so please don't mention that again.

This isn't about whether Klein is worthy of winning the Heisman.  Their standard is ambiguous, and there have been recent winners with worse numbers.  There is always an argument for who is or isn't worthy that can be made for anyone.  This is about people using lazy arguments to justify who they think is best, it angers me when some dumbass fat, cheet-o eating sports writer does this.  It makes me rage filled when a K-Stater uses the same dumb argument to try to cut down other K-Staters who want something good for their school and a guy who busted his ass for five years.

Would I have voted for Klein in I lived in Seattle and unaffiliated with Kansas State, I don't know.  What I do know is that I wouldn't make my decision based on the fact that one of the candidates had a "bad" game in which he threw for 300 yards and had three scores and then vote for a guy who had two "bad" games where he threw for a combined 449 yards and 0 passing TDs in an offense predicated upon him throwing, a lot.  I can also say with fair certainty that if you were a heisman voter unattached to a school and unswayed by media coverage that if you had a guy with Klein's profile leading going into the Baylor game you wouldn't drop him for the game that he had when he had 3 or 4 worse before that one.  Also did you know that in the Alabama game he threw for less yards and the same amount of TD passes than Klein did against Baylor?

What I'm saying is stop trying to sound intellectually superior to other fans when the method of making a decision is logically flawed and just as based on emotion as the people you are railing against.

[Unruly]

Hammer down MIR.


Hammer Down.

[ez2plez]

Exactly, Klein had 1 bad game thats it. Maybe thats where my butthurtness stems from. All it took was that one bad game for everyone to forget the rest of the season then the ESPN hype machine was in full effect for JM. I just hope Teo steals it from him somehow

YES.  One bad game was all it needed to take for Klein this year. 

Everyone was willing to look past his otherwise less than mindblowing statistics (that heisman winners usually have) if he could have gotten K-State to a national championship.  Klein's whole deal is "he's consistent and he's a winner," well against Baylor, he blew it. 

We played fewer teams that are horrible.  He played more teams that are better than our best team.  He also had far better numbers than Klein.

A&M lost 2 of those 3....K-State won both

So that somehow makes K-State's schedule harder?

No, the fact we played pretty much double the amount of bowl teams makes it a harder schedule.

Right, but "bowl teams" is just another metric.  Why should "bowl teams" be more important than "BCS bowl teams," or "currently ranked" teams, or "10 win" teams? 

Granted, K-State's SOS is 13 and A&M's is 29th.  BUT that difference is relatively marginal and Klein has far worse statistics.  SOS is only part of it.  Wins is only a part of it.  But only a part, that's why Golden at ND (8th SOS, undefeated) isn't a heisman contender.

You have to be in the NC or have the numbers.  Klein doesn't have either.  Manziel does.

I am not going to get into all of this again I took apart these talking points earlier in the week.  Dlew if you're going to call people dumbasses and the such you need to reassess a couple of things, namely that Klein had a bad game against Baylor thus disqualifying him/not making him worthy to win the Heisman.

Klein did not have a horrible game against Baylor.  Not using the standard of other Klein games this season, not using the standard of Manziel games, and not using the standard by other dual threat QBs who historically won the Heisman minus Cam Newton.  Klein had 3 TDs and nearly 300 yards passing, you won't have to look hard to find worse games by the three groups I mentioned in the previous sentence.  Yes, he threw three picks which was his high, but goodness it isn't historically awful and we shouldn't make it out to be.  And losing late also historically doesn't matter as far as winning the Heisman so please don't mention that again.

This isn't about whether Klein is worthy of winning the Heisman.  Their standard is ambiguous, and there have been recent winners with worse numbers.  There is always an argument for who is or isn't worthy that can be made for anyone.  This is about people using lazy arguments to justify who they think is best, it angers me when some dumbass fat, cheet-o eating sports writer does this.  It makes me rage filled when a K-Stater uses the same dumb argument to try to cut down other K-Staters who want something good for their school and a guy who busted his ass for five years.

Would I have voted for Klein in I lived in Seattle and unaffiliated with Kansas State, I don't know.  What I do know is that I wouldn't make my decision based on the fact that one of the candidates had a "bad" game in which he threw for 300 yards and had three scores and then vote for a guy who had two "bad" games where he threw for a combined 449 yards and 0 passing TDs in an offense predicated upon him throwing, a lot.  I can also say with fair certainty that if you were a heisman voter unattached to a school and unswayed by media coverage that if you had a guy with Klein's profile leading going into the Baylor game you wouldn't drop him for the game that he had when he had 3 or 4 worse before that one.  Also did you know that in the Alabama game he threw for less yards and the same amount of TD passes than Klein did against Baylor?

What I'm saying is stop trying to sound intellectually superior to other fans when the method of making a decision is logically flawed and just as based on emotion as the people you are railing against.

Church! 

[MakeItRain]

dlew providing some sanity in this thread

thank you dlew

So tell us who you have and the sound reasoning for selecting him.  I guarantee I can make your choice sound really wrong, really stupid, really insane no matter who you pick.

[Willesgirl]

dlew providing some sanity in this thread

thank you dlew

So tell us who you have and the sound reasoning for selecting him.  I guarantee I can make your choice sound really wrong, really stupid, really insane no matter who you pick.

 

[HawkHater]

Exactly, Klein had 1 bad game thats it. Maybe thats where my butthurtness stems from. All it took was that one bad game for everyone to forget the rest of the season then the ESPN hype machine was in full effect for JM. I just hope Teo steals it from him somehow

YES.  One bad game was all it needed to take for Klein this year. 

Everyone was willing to look past his otherwise less than mindblowing statistics (that heisman winners usually have) if he could have gotten K-State to a national championship.  Klein's whole deal is "he's consistent and he's a winner," well against Baylor, he blew it. 

We played fewer teams that are horrible.  He played more teams that are better than our best team.  He also had far better numbers than Klein.

A&M lost 2 of those 3....K-State won both

So that somehow makes K-State's schedule harder?

No, the fact we played pretty much double the amount of bowl teams makes it a harder schedule.

Right, but "bowl teams" is just another metric.  Why should "bowl teams" be more important than "BCS bowl teams," or "currently ranked" teams, or "10 win" teams? 

Granted, K-State's SOS is 13 and A&M's is 29th.  BUT that difference is relatively marginal and Klein has far worse statistics.  SOS is only part of it.  Wins is only a part of it.  But only a part, that's why Golden at ND (8th SOS, undefeated) isn't a heisman contender.

You have to be in the NC or have the numbers.  Klein doesn't have either.  Manziel does.

I am not going to get into all of this again I took apart these talking points earlier in the week.  Dlew if you're going to call people dumbasses and the such you need to reassess a couple of things, namely that Klein had a bad game against Baylor thus disqualifying him/not making him worthy to win the Heisman.

Klein did not have a horrible game against Baylor.  Not using the standard of other Klein games this season, not using the standard of Manziel games, and not using the standard by other dual threat QBs who historically won the Heisman minus Cam Newton.  Klein had 3 TDs and nearly 300 yards passing, you won't have to look hard to find worse games by the three groups I mentioned in the previous sentence.  Yes, he threw three picks which was his high, but goodness it isn't historically awful and we shouldn't make it out to be.  And losing late also historically doesn't matter as far as winning the Heisman so please don't mention that again.

This isn't about whether Klein is worthy of winning the Heisman.  Their standard is ambiguous, and there have been recent winners with worse numbers.  There is always an argument for who is or isn't worthy that can be made for anyone.  This is about people using lazy arguments to justify who they think is best, it angers me when some dumbass fat, cheet-o eating sports writer does this.  It makes me rage filled when a K-Stater uses the same dumb argument to try to cut down other K-Staters who want something good for their school and a guy who busted his ass for five years.

Would I have voted for Klein in I lived in Seattle and unaffiliated with Kansas State, I don't know.  What I do know is that I wouldn't make my decision based on the fact that one of the candidates had a "bad" game in which he threw for 300 yards and had three scores and then vote for a guy who had two "bad" games where he threw for a combined 449 yards and 0 passing TDs in an offense predicated upon him throwing, a lot.  I can also say with fair certainty that if you were a heisman voter unattached to a school and unswayed by media coverage that if you had a guy with Klein's profile leading going into the Baylor game you wouldn't drop him for the game that he had when he had 3 or 4 worse before that one.  Also did you know that in the Alabama game he threw for less yards and the same amount of TD passes than Klein did against Baylor?

What I'm saying is stop trying to sound intellectually superior to other fans when the method of making a decision is logically flawed and just as based on emotion as the people you are railing against.

Outstanding post!

[GoodForAnother]

guys the heisman has been a terrible award for a long time.  let's not care so much about it.

[CNS]

   What was once an award reserved for those who had stellar college careers has been reduced to an award given for a "Moment" pffttt.

Yeah. Its more about the story that can be made up around the individual than it is about that individuals play.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

[Ira Hayes]

Nick Florence led the country in total offense. Also led his team to a victory against the number 1 team in the BCS rankings. And did it all against a more difficult schedule than A&M's.

Sagarin says Baylor played the 4th best SOS. A&M was 27th.

[DQ12]

I am not going to get into all of this again I took apart these talking points earlier in the week. Dlew if you're going to call people dumbasses and the such you need to reassess a couple of things, namely that Klein had a bad game against Baylor thus disqualifying him/not making him worthy to win the Heisman.

Klein did not have a horrible game against Baylor.  Not using the standard of other Klein games this season, not using the standard of Manziel games, and not using the standard by other dual threat QBs who historically won the Heisman minus Cam Newton.  Klein had 3 TDs and nearly 300 yards passing, you won't have to look hard to find worse games by the three groups I mentioned in the previous sentence.  Yes, he threw three picks which was his high, but goodness it isn't historically awful and we shouldn't make it out to be.  And losing late also historically doesn't matter as far as winning the Heisman so please don't mention that again.

This isn't about whether Klein is worthy of winning the Heisman.  Their standard is ambiguous, and there have been recent winners with worse numbers.  There is always an argument for who is or isn't worthy that can be made for anyone.  This is about people using lazy arguments to justify who they think is best, it angers me when some dumbass fat, cheet-o eating sports writer does this.  It makes me rage filled when a K-Stater uses the same dumb argument to try to cut down other K-Staters who want something good for their school and a guy who busted his ass for five years.

Would I have voted for Klein in I lived in Seattle and unaffiliated with Kansas State, I don't know.  What I do know is that I wouldn't make my decision based on the fact that one of the candidates had a "bad" game in which he threw for 300 yards and had three scores and then vote for a guy who had two "bad" games where he threw for a combined 449 yards and 0 passing TDs in an offense predicated upon him throwing, a lot.  I can also say with fair certainty that if you were a heisman voter unattached to a school and unswayed by media coverage that if you had a guy with Klein's profile leading going into the Baylor game you wouldn't drop him for the game that he had when he had 3 or 4 worse before that one.  Also did you know that in the Alabama game he threw for less yards and the same amount of TD passes than Klein did against Baylor?

What I'm saying is stop trying to sound intellectually superior to other fans when the method of making a decision is logically flawed and just as based on emotion as the people you are railing against.

Klein had a bad game against Baylor man.  Dress it up however you want. 

27 of 50, with 3 interceptions, 2 passing TDs, for 286 yards and 17 rushes, for 39 yards "in an offense predicated on" klein running the football, and not screwing up is bad.  Bad. Bad. Bad.  Against the statistical worst defense in the country.  He played very bad against Baylor. 

But hell, we can toss out the "bad" characterization anyways.  Bottom line is, the loss kept K-State out of the national championship game.  Like i've been saying, no national championship, no crazy numbers, no heisman.

Now, having said that, Klein had a fantastic season.  It was great.  I love him. etc., but in addition to losing (against one of the worst defenses in the country), Klein also didn't have eye-popping numbers this season. 

People make out the Heisman to be this super arbitrary thing where no one can possibly guess who will win, but really, it's not that difficult to see that you either (1) have to lead your team to the national championship, or (2) have absurd statistics. 

RGIII: 4200 yards passing, 700 yards rushing, 47 TDs NO NC APPEARANCE
Newton: 2850 yards passing, 1500 yards rushing, 50 TDs + NC appearance
Ingram: 1700 yards rushing, 334 receiving, 20 TDs + NC appearance
Bradford: 4700 yards passing, 55 TDs + NC appearance
Tebow: 3300 yards passing, 900 yards rushing, 55 TDs NO NC APPEARANCE
Troy Smith: 2500 yards passing, 230 yards rushing, 31 TDs + NC appearance
Bush: 1740 yards rushing, 480 yards receiving, 19 TDs + NC appearance
Leinart: 3,332 yards passing, 36 TDs + NC appearance
Jason White: 3500 yards passing, 40 TDs + NC appearance
Carson Palmer: 3900 yards passing, 37 TDs NO NC APPEARANCE
Eric Crouch: 1500 yards passing, 1100 yards rushing, 25 TDs, + NC appearance
Chris Weinke: 4300 yards passing, 43 TDs + NC appearance

Klein: 2500 yards passing, 890 yards rushing, 37 TDs, NO NC APPEARANCE.
Manziel: 3400 yards passing, 1200 yards rushing, 43 TDs, NO NC APPEARANCE

So addressing Meister's comment about how there's "no formula" in determining who is going to win the heisman, is true, to an extent.  But there IS a formula in determining who won't win the Heisman.  According to that list, which goes back to the 2000 season, the requirements for winning the Heisman are at least a NC Appearance, OR at least 3900 total yards.