Lowery Interview on 1350

[naturalselection]

If that was truly legit, do you think South Carolina hires him? 

I can say they've sniffed at the tree in the last 5 years, but they aren't going to get anywhere at this juncture IMO.

So that part of the rational for pushing Frank out is AD propaganda from what you know?  I have no ITK, so appreciate you sharing.  Many who do like to be totally vague with what they do chose to share. 

Stuff like that floating out (and CC is not the only one I've seen that from) makes the rest of it harder for me to buy. 

[wabash909]

That wasn't really my point.  I was just responding to all the posts about who was "inherited."  But if you compare who was inherited, I bet Weber's Illinois team looks better.  Weber also won two conference championships and went to the national championship game with those players.  So, Frank had less NBA talent to work with -- and achieved much less.  Not sure how you compare them...

Exactly.  Weber inherited a talented, deep, and experienced team and rode them to a sweet 16 and then a championship game.  At a university with a recent culture of winning, and a national (or close) reputation for doing so.  A big fish school in a fabulous recruiting area.  Proceeded to turn average to below average results over the next 7 seasons.  After what should have been momentum building success. 

Martin inherited a couple very talented players who were with him for one season, another top 100 rsci player, and a couple fringy top 150 guys who developed under his coaching into better players then their rankings out of high school suggested.  At a university coming off a NIT season with nothing but crap for the 15 seasons prior.  A school with 0 built in recruiting advantages.  Proceeded to turn in above average BCS results over the next 4 seasons (after his TOP talent left).

I don't see how anyone can look at the two coaches in total and conclude that oscar Weber is anywhere near Frank Martin level.  oscar Weber is clearly a step down.  It's not even debatable and doing so makes anyone look foolish.

Man, I read stuff like this and I'm back to square one.

[michigancat]

Both coaches were actually trending downwards number-wise.  Frank went from 2nd to 3rd to 5th in the conference and won less games each of his last 3 seasons.  Weber won less games each of his last 4 seasons and went from 2nd to 5th to 4th to 9th in conference.

Does Frank come out better in this comparison?  Yes, but only marginally.  Does Weber look like a disastrous hire on parallel with Asbury and Wooldridge?  No.

Marginally better? A big difference is that over the spans you are comparing (Frank's last 3, oscar's last 4), Frank won 5 NCAA tournament games, never missed the NCAA tourney, and had a conference record of 31-19. oscar won 1 NCAA tournament game, missed the NCAA tournament twice, and had a conference record of 36-36.

And frank is marginally better? Really?

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

Okay, so first off, we're completely throwing out Weber building SIU and his 103 wins there, right?  Because SIU was in the Missouri Valley Conference.  Of course, the Mo Valley might be better than the Pac 12 ... but so stipulated.  It's out.

Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison.  Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived.  Self was responsible for just getting two of them.  Weber won two more.  In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952.  From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens.  Self had also just gotten one of each of these.  (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)

Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game.  Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture.  (Not "below average.")  Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years.  This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.

As for Frank, he also is above average.  After Beasley left, he won 20+ games every year, and finished in the top four in the conference and went to the NCAA 3 out of 4 four years.

Both coaches were actually trending downwards number-wise.  Frank went from 2nd to 3rd to 5th in the conference and won less games each of his last 3 seasons.  Weber won less games each of his last 4 seasons and went from 2nd to 5th to 4th to 9th in conference.

Does Frank come out better in this comparison?  Yes, but only marginally.  Does Weber look like a disastrous hire on parallel with Asbury and Wooldridge?  No.

I just don't get the doom and gloom.

It's not doom and gloom from my perspective.  It's a step backward.  A pretty obvious (imo) step backward.  Is that what we want?  Are we o.k. with that?  The general opinion forming seems to be lets only hope it's a small step back so we can stay middle of the pack longer.

If you imagine the first seven years of Weber's career don't count (four conference championships, three sweet sixteens, national championship game appearance) -- then I admit it's a step back.  But even then it's not the preposterous step back people seem to argue it is.

[wetwillie]

Weber is probably going to meh us to death,everyone knows that,John deserves all the hate. We aren't going to get rid of oscar until his failures are actually realized. Currie won this round, just need to be ready for the next round. Might as well enjoy this year and maybe the next.

[naturalselection]

but one thing we do know is that 3 players asked for and met with ADJC.

I may have missed that, but how do we know 3?

We don't know who, but I would suggest it wasn't Omari, Watson, Jones or some other meaninless scrub.

What makes you suggest that? 

Do you think that the entire basketball staff was either in on this rampant player abuse or oblivious to it?  I can't get passed the fact that they all went with Frank when many had other options.  If Frank has/had become so toxic with players why the hell would they choose to go to a dead end basketball program and sink their careers with his ship?

[SdK]

Mommy was in a shitty marriage. She made a hard decision and she divorced her abusive husband. As a knee jerk reaction she began dating someone who is the complete opposite.

Now the kids hate their mother's boyfriend because he is nothing like daddy. All that they loved about daddy, the new bf lacks. The kids didn't hear all the late night bickering and the verbal barrage that was laid upon their mother, the cheating, etc.

So now they whine and complain to their mother and disrespect her new boyfriend. All the while putting their dad on a pedestal he didn't necessarily deserve. Daddy left you to start a new family with a woman half your mother's worth. Love your mother and her happiness.

[CHONGS]

Mommy was in a shitty marriage. She made a hard decision and she divorced her abusive husband. As a knee jerk reaction she began dating someone who is the complete opposite.

Now the kids hate their mother's boyfriend because he is nothing like daddy. All that they loved about daddy, the new bf lacks. The kids didn't hear all the late night bickering and the verbal barrage that was laid upon their mother, the cheating, etc.

So now they whine and complain to their mother and disrespect her new boyfriend. All the while putting their dad on a pedestal he didn't necessarily deserve. Daddy left you to start a new family with a woman half your mother's worth. Love your mother and her happiness.

I have no doubt you think of Frank like a jilted lover.

[naturalselection]

If you imagine the first seven years of Weber's career don't count (four conference championships, three sweet sixteens, national championship game appearance) -- then I admit it's a step back.  But even then it's not the preposterous step back people seem to argue it is.

Yes, I tend to count more recent results heavier then past ones.  Especially when you're talking 7-14 years ago.  Even more so when the more recent years would be the ones you would logically expect to be the better. 

I don't think preposterous was the word you were looking for there.  It's a clear step back.  We can keep arguing how big of one, it's keeping me entertained. 

[naturalselection]

Mommy was in a shitty marriage. She made a hard decision and she divorced her abusive husband. As a knee jerk reaction she began dating someone who is the complete opposite.

Now the kids hate their mother's boyfriend because he is nothing like daddy. All that they loved about daddy, the new bf lacks. The kids didn't hear all the late night bickering and the verbal barrage that was laid upon their mother, the cheating, etc.

So now they whine and complain to their mother and disrespect her new boyfriend. All the while putting their dad on a pedestal he didn't necessarily deserve. Daddy left you to start a new family with a woman half your mother's worth. Love your mother and her happiness.

Except in this example mommy is a bitch whore and daddy took us to Disney world all the time and bought us lots of cool crap.  Plus he was well muscled and handsome and all your friends were jealous cause he was a bad ass.  So even though you can see mommy is happier now, inside you'll always be resentful that she couldn't just shut up about his drinking and flirting and make do with what she had for your sake if nothing else.  The new boy friend is also kind of a dork that you don't want to be seen in public with.

[Fuktard]

but one thing we do know is that 3 players asked for and met with ADJC.

I may have missed that, but how do we know 3?

We don't know who, but I would suggest it wasn't Omari, Watson, Jones or some other meaninless scrub.

What makes you suggest that? 

Do you think that the entire basketball staff was either in on this rampant player abuse or oblivious to it?  I can't get passed the fact that they all went with Frank when many had other options.  If Frank has/had become so toxic with players why the hell would they choose to go to a dead end basketball program and sink their careers with his ship?

 Please list the other options our assistant coaches had including the salaries they were offered.  tia

[michigancat]

but one thing we do know is that 3 players asked for and met with ADJC.

I may have missed that, but how do we know 3?

We don't know who, but I would suggest it wasn't Omari, Watson, Jones or some other meaninless scrub.

What makes you suggest that? 

Do you think that the entire basketball staff was either in on this rampant player abuse or oblivious to it?  I can't get passed the fact that they all went with Frank when many had other options.  If Frank has/had become so toxic with players why the hell would they choose to go to a dead end basketball program and sink their careers with his ship?

 Please list the other options our assistant coaches had including the salaries they were offered.  tia

It's pretty rare for entire staffs to blindly follow a head coach when he leaves. I mean, Underwood, Assaley, and Greenawalt stuck around for Frank when he was an unproven high school coach. Maybe they got offered more money to stay back then, who knows?

Lamont may have had some trouble finding a new full-time assistant job, so I can see him following a lunatic doomed for failure. But Underwood and Figger would have been able to land on their feet without question. The fact that EVERYONE went without even seeing who KSU was going to hire speaks volumes about how the player abuse/mutiny rumor is complete bullshit.

[naturalselection]

Please list the other options our assistant coaches had including the salaries they were offered.  tia

Kinda making my point.  Scott didn't even look around.  You don't think he could have stayed here?  Or gone to a number of other BCS jobs?  That dude is a rock star as far as S&C coaches go. 

Allegedly we tried (halfheartedly maybe) to keep Brad.  Though that's coming from our AD, so I will grant you that we have no idea the level of truthiness there. 

I didn't hear any of the other guys (aside from Brad) made any other inquires.  Sure, having a job is better then not having one.  Still, if Frank is a mad man that was about to destroy his program at KSU, you don't think any of them would look around before they followed him to a lesser program? 

[Dr Rick Daris]

Weber is probably going to meh us to death,everyone knows that,John deserves all the hate. We aren't going to get rid of oscar until his failures are actually realized. Currie won this round, just need to be ready for the next round. Might as well enjoy this year and maybe the next.

everyone doesn't know it though wetwillie. that's the point of the past ten pages.

[puniraptor]

I understand BURN IT DOWN, but I just can't pull it off. Best I can do is wear fire currie shirts to cheer on my cats probably.

[Dr Rick Daris]

I understand BURN IT DOWN, but I just can't pull it off. Best I can do is wear fire currie shirts to cheer on my cats probably.

i mean i don't think i can really do it either. like i can't actively cheer for next years team to lose or anything. my god i just love those guys way, way too much. i can hedge my bets though. and i can make fun of weber and point out how horrible he is at every given opportunity. and if angel doesn't come back, then the year after this year all bets are off.

[Belvis Noland]

Say, hypothetically, Webers first 5 years are as follows:

12 - 23 Ws, 2nd in conference, sweet 16
13 - 21 Ws, 4th in conference, round of 32
14 - 19 Ws, 5th in conference, NIT
15 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, 1st round NCAA
16 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, NIT

Recruiting classes are average.  Mostly 100-150 3* players.  Goes 1-9 against KU. 

Are these fairly average results a "big step back" for our program?  Will weber have successfully "mehd us to death"?

Give or take, the hypo above is pretty much Frank Martin basketball.  Slight edge to Martin, I'd guess.

[Dr Rick Daris]

Say, hypothetically, Webers first 5 years are as follows:

12 - 23 Ws, 2nd in conference, sweet 16
13 - 21 Ws, 4th in conference, round of 32
14 - 19 Ws, 5th in conference, NIT
15 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, 1st round NCAA
16 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, NIT



Give or take, the hypo above is pretty much Frank Martin basketball. 

no it's not. also, i don't care about overall wins. what would weber's conf record be in the above?

[wetwillie]

Say, hypothetically, Webers first 5 years are as follows:

12 - 23 Ws, 2nd in conference, sweet 16
13 - 21 Ws, 4th in conference, round of 32
14 - 19 Ws, 5th in conference, NIT
15 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, 1st round NCAA
16 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, NIT

Recruiting classes are average.  Mostly 100-150 3* players.  Goes 1-9 against KU. 

Are these fairly average results a "big step back" for our program?  Will weber have successfully "mehd us to death"?

Give or take, the hypo above is pretty much Frank Martin basketball.  Slight edge to Martin, I'd guess.

Finishing in the top four of the conference is the ticket, essentially a lock for the tourney considering the strength of our league.  Judging oscar on league record should be what we do. If he puts together anything worse than 9-9 at any point in time I don't think he has any right to be retained.

[MakeItRain]

Why are people calling the round of 32 "the third round"?  Frank had a great track record and won tons of games, no need to start using that kind of bullshit to perpetuate his success.

You can call it whatever the hell you want to call it but according to the NCAA and all non Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) media the third round is the round of 32.  Stop being a rough ridin' moron no one is perpetuating anything, just being factually correct.

[Dr Rick Daris]

Say, hypothetically, Webers first 5 years are as follows:

12 - 23 Ws, 2nd in conference, sweet 16
13 - 21 Ws, 4th in conference, round of 32
14 - 19 Ws, 5th in conference, NIT
15 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, 1st round NCAA
16 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, NIT



Give or take, the hypo above is pretty much Frank Martin basketball. 

no it's not. also, i don't care about overall wins. what would weber's conf record be in the above?

also and mainly just to squash any potential back and forth, a fourth place finish in conference when frank was coaching (12 teams) is equal to a third place finish (10 teams) moving forward. just saving time. now answer the rest.

[sonofdaxjones]

If that was truly legit, do you think South Carolina hires him? 

I can say they've sniffed at the tree in the last 5 years, but they aren't going to get anywhere at this juncture IMO.

So that part of the rational for pushing Frank out is AD propaganda from what you know?  I have no ITK, so appreciate you sharing.  Many who do like to be totally vague with what they do chose to share. 

Stuff like that floating out (and CC is not the only one I've seen that from) makes the rest of it harder for me to buy.

The only thing I I ever heard directly related to Frank that COULD be construed as eyebrow raising is Frank giving money to former players.   

[michigancat]

Say, hypothetically, Webers first 5 years are as follows:

12 - 23 Ws, 2nd in conference, sweet 16
13 - 21 Ws, 4th in conference, round of 32
14 - 19 Ws, 5th in conference, NIT
15 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, 1st round NCAA
16 - 20 Ws, 4th in conference, NIT

Recruiting classes are average.  Mostly 100-150 3* players.  Goes 1-9 against KU. 

Are these fairly average results a "big step back" for our program?  Will weber have successfully "mehd us to death"?

Give or take, the hypo above is pretty much Frank Martin basketball.  Slight edge to Martin, I'd guess.

That is clearly worse than Frank and he should be fired after the fifth season in that scenario. I also think your hypothetical is pretty close to oscar's ceiling @ KSU.

[sonofdaxjones]

Does Weber like Harley's?

[kst8cat]

all of you people pining for Frank are delusional.  I'm telling you Frank as our coach next year was NOT an option.  Daris, you asked for facts.  We don't have a lot as _Fan alluded to (lots of rumors), but one thing we do know is that 3 players asked for and met with ADJC.  We don't know who, but I would suggest it wasn't Omari, Watson, Jones or some other meaninless scrub.  So basically 1/3 of the team made a point to meet with Currie (rumors would put the number at more than half).  Can you imagine 15 football players off the 2 deep meeting with the AD?  How many D1 players EVER meet with the AD?  We had a mutiny.  Frank was NOT coming back, and, IMHO, we didn't want him to.

What I have heard about the player mutiny is that one time during practice, Frank got so mad that he literally rushed at and tackled one of the players on the court (my source seems to think that player was Thomas Gipson).  That was the breaking point and right after that is when multiple players met with Currie and said they were leaving if Frank is here next year.  It is second-hand information and could be untrue, so take it as nothing more than a rumor if you like.  But if it turns out later to be true, then I want to take full credit.