Lowery Interview on 1350

[sonofdaxjones]

Rusty has taken on a scorched earth policy with the Asbury comparo's . . . all reason is gone, he's just burning down the grass huts and slaughtering all matter of foodstuffs and anything the populace can try and live on as he retreats.

[Belvis Noland]

I guess I continue feelign compelled to clarify my position. 

1)  do I wish we still had Frank?  yes.
2)  do I think Frank was a good coach?  yes.
3)  do I think Frank was an excellent coach?  no. 
4)  do I think Weber is a good coach?  yes.
5)  do I think Weber is an excellent coach?  no. 

Ultimately, I think Frank and Weber are pretty comparable 2nd tier coaches who have proven to win about the same number of games, finish about the same position in their respective conferences, with about the same level of postseason success.  Frank has been to a higher percentage of NCAA tourneys.  Weber has coached in higher level games.  It's about a wash IMO, with the slight edge to Frank because I like him more. 

I just don't waste my time wallowing in self-pity about our program rapidly devolving into the dark ages of Asbury basketball, because I think Weber has proven himself to be a bit better coach than that. 

Maybe I'll be proven wrong.  But, unlike a lot of people on this board, I actually hope I'm right about Weber.     

[kso_FAN]

I guess I continue feelign compelled to clarify my position. 

1)  do I wish we still had Frank?  yes.
2)  do I think Frank was a good coach?  yes.
3)  do I think Frank was an excellent coach?  no. 
4)  do I think Weber is a good coach?  yes.
5)  do I think Weber is an excellent coach?  no. 

Ultimately, I think Frank and Weber are pretty comparable 2nd tier coaches who have proven to win about the same number of games, finish about the same position in their respective conferences, with about the same level of postseason success.  Frank has been to a higher percentage of NCAA tourneys.  Weber has coached in higher level games.  It's about a wash IMO, with the slight edge to Frank because I like him more. 

I just don't waste my time wallowing in self-pity about our program rapidly devolving into the dark ages of Asbury basketball, because I think Weber has proven himself to be a bit better coach than that. 

Maybe I'll be proven wrong.  But, unlike a lot of people on this board, I actually hope I'm right about Weber.     

Agree 100%.

And the hope that Weber fails because it will make K-State better thing doesn't make any sense to me.

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

I guess I continue feelign compelled to clarify my position. 

1)  do I wish we still had Frank?  yes.
2)  do I think Frank was a good coach?  yes.
3)  do I think Frank was an excellent coach?  no. 
4)  do I think Weber is a good coach?  yes.
5)  do I think Weber is an excellent coach?  no. 

Ultimately, I think Frank and Weber are pretty comparable 2nd tier coaches who have proven to win about the same number of games, finish about the same position in their respective conferences, with about the same level of postseason success.  Frank has been to a higher percentage of NCAA tourneys.  Weber has coached in higher level games.  It's about a wash IMO, with the slight edge to Frank because I like him more. 

I just don't waste my time wallowing in self-pity about our program rapidly devolving into the dark ages of Asbury basketball, because I think Weber has proven himself to be a bit better coach than that. 

Maybe I'll be proven wrong.  But, unlike a lot of people on this board, I actually hope I'm right about Weber.     

Agree 100%.

And the hope that Weber fails because it will make K-State better thing doesn't make any sense to me.

+1

[Dr Rick Daris]

Does Weber not get credit for player recruited by his assistants, but Frank does get credit for Te recruits?  Just want to lay out the ground rules for our argument here...

Also, just to be clear Frank inherited JamSam right, who redshirted and was here his whole tenure?  Plus Beasley, Pullen, Walker, Sutton, Hoskins, and god bless him, Colon.

Notable players who came in after Huggins were Curtis Kelly, Denis, Wally Judge, McGruder, and JO (a project who is really panning out).

god damnit this is frustrating. i'm putting together a list tonight of who was "on the team" that each coach inherited. nobody ever should even compare the two. they are not even close. oscar got three future nba guards plus others and frank got clent freaking stewart and blake young.

[kso_FAN]

Does Weber not get credit for player recruited by his assistants, but Frank does get credit for Te recruits?  Just want to lay out the ground rules for our argument here...

Also, just to be clear Frank inherited JamSam right, who redshirted and was here his whole tenure?  Plus Beasley, Pullen, Walker, Sutton, Hoskins, and god bless him, Colon.

Notable players who came in after Huggins were Curtis Kelly, Denis, Wally Judge, McGruder, and JO (a project who is really panning out).

god damnit this is frustrating. i'm putting together a list tonight of who was "on the team" that each coach inherited. nobody ever should even compare the two. they are not even close. oscar got three future nba guards plus others and frank got clent freaking stewart and blake young.

The situations aren't comparable. oscar had better talent, no doubt. But started a new system at a new place.

Frank got less talent, but had worked with the remaining players and continued basically the same system.

Very different new coach situations.

[michigancat]

Frank may be gone, but the expectations he created for the program shouldn't be. Judging from your post, they are. Your "Frankesque" description is equal parts baffling and hilarious.

The bottom line is his last five years was justification for firing him and  should be enough for us to not hire him. I mean you didn't see any high-majors looking to hire Tom Asbury in 2000 because of his success at Pepperdine, yet that's what people seem to be doing with Weber.

How do my posts reflect diminished expectations.  Frank's profile was consistent NCAAs, 20+ wins and 3rd-5th in Conference.  A "Frankesque" season is one which meets that criteria, IMO.  Am I wrong?  Was Frank better than this?  achieve more?   

Considering Frank won 21 games every year, finished 4th or better 4 out of 5 years, and went to the NCAA tournament 4 out of 5 years, I think considering "20 wins", "5th place" and "postseason" to be "Frankesque" is definitely lowering expectations. This of course assumes that we should expect "Frankesque" results.

The Asbury talking point is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  KSU Asbury = 85-88 (29-63), 1 NCAA tourney.  Illini Weber = 210-101, (89-65), 6 NCAA tourneys + 1 naty appearance.  Asbury was horrible.  Weber was not. Serious comparo?  serious question. 
 

But what about his six years prior? I mean he won 3 conference titles and had a couple frank-esque seasons. Surely someone on hard times would have taken a flier on the guy. He's definitely a worse version of Weber, so you think a worse version of K-State would have jumped to hire him. He proved that he could coach at Pepperdine.

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

Does Weber not get credit for player recruited by his assistants, but Frank does get credit for Te recruits?  Just want to lay out the ground rules for our argument here...

Also, just to be clear Frank inherited JamSam right, who redshirted and was here his whole tenure?  Plus Beasley, Pullen, Walker, Sutton, Hoskins, and god bless him, Colon.

Notable players who came in after Huggins were Curtis Kelly, Denis, Wally Judge, McGruder, and JO (a project who is really panning out).

god damnit this is frustrating. i'm putting together a list tonight of who was "on the team" that each coach inherited. nobody ever should even compare the two. they are not even close. oscar got three future nba guards plus others and frank got clent freaking stewart and blake young.

That wasn't really my point.  I was just responding to all the posts about who was "inherited."  But if you compare who was inherited, I bet Weber's Illinois team looks better.  Weber also won two conference championships and went to the national championship game with those players.  So, Frank had less NBA talent to work with -- and achieved much less.  Not sure how you compare them...

[yosh]

Agree with fan, belvis and ghost with one exception.  The two disaster seasons from weber put him a notch below Frank.  If you throw out those two seasons, and throw out the two self aided big 10 title seasons, Frank and weber look the same.  However I give Frank an extreme amount of credit for willing his team out of those potential disasters.  The Kent team wouldn't happen undetermined weber for example.  Imo.

[michigancat]

I guess I continue feelign compelled to clarify my position. 

1)  do I wish we still had Frank?  yes.
2)  do I think Frank was a good coach?  yes.
3)  do I think Frank was an excellent coach?  no. 
4)  do I think Weber is a good coach?  yes.
5)  do I think Weber is an excellent coach?  no. 

Ultimately, I think Frank and Weber are pretty comparable 2nd tier coaches who have proven to win about the same number of games, finish about the same position in their respective conferences, with about the same level of postseason success.  Frank has been to a higher percentage of NCAA tourneys.  Weber has coached in higher level games.  It's about a wash IMO, with the slight edge to Frank because I like him more. 

I just don't waste my time wallowing in self-pity about our program rapidly devolving into the dark ages of Asbury basketball, because I think Weber has proven himself to be a bit better coach than that. 

Maybe I'll be proven wrong.  But, unlike a lot of people on this board, I actually hope I'm right about Weber.     

Agree 100%.

And the hope that Weber fails because it will make K-State better thing doesn't make any sense to me.

I think this "burn it down" thing has been blown out of proportion by the Woolites, but I'll attempt to defend the rationale anyway:

I would rather oscar not fail at all, but I would rather him fail as quickly and spectacularly as possible while people still care than fail slowly like I expect him to.

KSU will have to take chances on coaching hires to achieve greatness no matter how good of shape the program is in, at least for the forseeable future. I'd rather get to that next "chance" sooner, rather than later.

Does that make sense?

[stobblebobby]

Hey guys, remember #gottlieb4ksu?

Man that was fun...

[naturalselection]

god damnit this is frustrating. i'm putting together a list tonight of who was "on the team" that each coach inherited. nobody ever should even compare the two. they are not even close. oscar got three future nba guards plus others and frank got clent freaking stewart and blake young.

KSU:

Michael Beasley was a freshman was a Freshman Frank's first season. He played one season for Frank. Drafted #2 overall in 08. rsci #4 prospect in his highschool class.

Blake Young was a sr going into his second season at KSU from Junior college. Not drafted. Not ranked out of high school.

Clent Steward was a sr going into his 4th season at KSU. Not drafted. Fringy top 150 player (not rsci top 100).

Bill Walker was a soph. Played 1 season for Frank. Drafted in the 2nd round in 08. rsci #52 (misleading, was top 10 in some publications and not ranked in others due to his late class change).

Jacob Pullen was a fr. Played 4 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. Fringy top 150 guy (not rsci top 100).

Andre Gilbert was a jr (?). Played 1 season for Frank. Not drafted. Not rated out of high school.

Darren Kent was a jr. Played 2 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. Not rated out of high school.

Ron Anderson was a fr. Played 2 seasons for Frank. Not drafted (we can assume). Not rated out of high school.

Dominique Sutton was a fr. Played 3 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. rsci #81.

Fred Brown was a fr. Played 2 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. Not rated out of high school.

Luis Colon was a so. Played 4 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. Not rated out of high school.



ILL:

Dee Brown was a So. when oscar took over at Illinois. He played for oscar for 3 seasons. Drafted in the 2nd round of 06. He was the #19 rsci rated player in his class out of high school.

Deron Williams was a So. He played 2 seasons for oscar. Drafted #3 overall in 05. #48 rsci

James Augustine was a So. when oscar started. Played 3 seasons for oscar. Drafted in the 2nd round in 06. #78 rsci

Luther Head was a Jr in oscar's first season. He played 2 seasons with oscar. Drafted #24 overall in 05. Fringy top 100 h.s. recruit (did not make rsci top 100).

Roger Powell Jr. was a Jr. when oscar took over. Stayed 2 seasons. Not drafted. #62 rsci.

Nick Smith was a Jr. Played 2 seasons with oscar. Not drafted. #77 rsci.

Rich McBride was a frosh. Played 4 seasons. Not drafted. #28 rsci.

Brian Randle was a frosh. Played 4 seasons. Not drafted. #53 rsci.

Jack Ingram was a jr playing his first season at Ill after a transfer from Tulsa. Played 2 seasons for oscar. Not drafted. Not ranked coming out of high school.

Aaron Spears was a SO. Played 1 season with oscar before transfering to St. Johns. Not drafted. #86 rsci.

Warren Carter was a frosh. Played 4 seasons for oscar. Not drafted. Fringy top 100 player (made several lists, rsci not one of them).


oscar Weber took over a program and in his first season was coaching 8 players rated in the top 100 of their class by rsci. Another 2 guys who were top 150 type players. Frank Martin took over a team with 3 top 100 rsci players, and another two top 150ish guys. On top of that, 2 of Frank Martin's 3 initial top 100 players left after 1 season (the two highest rated). oscar Weber lost 1 of his 8 top 100 players after his first season (the lowest rated of his 8). Both started with a top 5 NBA draft pick. oscar Weber started with 4 future NBA draft picks, Martin with 2. Both of Martin's NBA drafted players were with him one season. oscar Weber had all 4 of his NBA players for at least 2 seasons.

[Dr Rick Daris]

god damnit this is frustrating. i'm putting together a list tonight of who was "on the team" that each coach inherited. nobody ever should even compare the two. they are not even close. oscar got three future nba guards plus others and frank got clent freaking stewart and blake young.

KSU:

Michael Beasley was a freshman was a Freshman Frank's first season. He played one season for Frank. Drafted #2 overall in 08. rsci #4 prospect in his highschool class.

Blake Young was a sr going into his second season at KSU from Junior college. Not drafted. Not ranked out of high school.

Clent Steward was a sr going into his 4th season at KSU. Not drafted. Fringy top 150 player (not rsci top 100).

Bill Walker was a soph. Played 1 season for Frank. Drafted in the 2nd round in 08. rsci #52 (misleading, was top 10 in some publications and not ranked in others due to his late class change).

Jacob Pullen was a fr. Played 4 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. Fringy top 150 guy (not rsci top 100).

Andre Gilbert was a jr (?). Played 1 season for Frank. Not drafted. Not rated out of high school.

Darren Kent was a jr. Played 2 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. Not rated out of high school.

Ron Anderson was a fr. Played 2 seasons for Frank. Not drafted (we can assume). Not rated out of high school.

Dominique Sutton was a fr. Played 3 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. rsci #81.

Fred Brown was a fr. Played 2 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. Not rated out of high school.

Luis Colon was a so. Played 4 seasons for Frank. Not drafted. Not rated out of high school.



ILL:

Dee Brown was a So. when oscar took over at Illinois. He played for oscar for 3 seasons. Drafted in the 2nd round of 06. He was the #19 rsci rated player in his class out of high school.

Deron Williams was a So. He played 2 seasons for oscar. Drafted #3 overall in 05. #48 rsci

James Augustine was a So. when oscar started. Played 3 seasons for oscar. Drafted in the 2nd round in 06. #78 rsci

Luther Head was a Jr in oscar's first season. He played 2 seasons with oscar. Drafted #24 overall in 05. Fringy top 100 h.s. recruit (did not make rsci top 100).

Roger Powell Jr. was a Jr. when oscar took over. Stayed 2 seasons. Not drafted. #62 rsci.

Nick Smith was a Jr. Played 2 seasons with oscar. Not drafted. #77 rsci.

Rich McBride was a frosh. Played 4 seasons. Not drafted. #28 rsci.

Brian Randle was a frosh. Played 4 seasons. Not drafted. #53 rsci.

Jack Ingram was a jr playing his first season at Ill after a transfer from Tulsa. Played 2 seasons for oscar. Not drafted. Not ranked coming out of high school.

Aaron Spears was a SO. Played 1 season with oscar before transfering to St. Johns. Not drafted. #86 rsci.

Warren Carter was a frosh. Played 4 seasons for oscar. Not drafted. Fringy top 100 player (made several lists, rsci not one of them).


oscar Weber took over a program and in his first season was coaching 8 players rated in the top 100 of their class by rsci. Another 2 guys who were top 150 type players. Frank Martin took over a team with 3 top 100 rsci players, and another two top 150ish guys. On top of that, 2 of Frank Martin's 3 initial top 100 players left after 1 season (the two highest rated). oscar Weber lost 1 of his 8 top 100 players after his first season (the lowest rated of his 8). Both started with a top 5 NBA draft pick. oscar Weber started with 4 future NBA draft picks, Martin with 2. Both of Martin's NBA drafted players were with him one season. oscar Weber had all 4 of his NBA players for at least 2 seasons.

thanks. now take pullen, beasely and every other freshman from both schools except jamar off the list. they were all in highschool when the coaches took over and as we are now seeing, those players have to be rerecruited and often don't end up coming to the school.

[Mr Bread]

His last six seasons represent a clear downward trend from his first three.  It isn't statistical manipulation.  The program at that point was his and his alone.  Additionally, he didn't have to build the program up into that.  He had colossal momentum.  He was handed the keys to a juggernaut and he took it down to that level.  That is what he is capable of at a solid high major program.  50-56 in conference, 3 NCAA appearances, 1 NCAA win, 0 conference championships (regular season or tourney) and 1 firing in six seasons.  His possible success at this level is greatly proscribed by his limitations as a coach.  He might achieve moderate success at KSU, but he will never do anything of note.  He is very much the dry hump of coaches.  At brief moments you think something might be about to happen, but then you realize no you're just getting dry humped and it's actually really f-ing annoying and uncomfortable and pointless and there will never be a payoff just more friction on the way to KSU basketball fan blue balls.           

so basically, frank gets no credit for anything accomplished during any of his five seasons?

Frank gets a ton of credit for elevating the profile of the program.  No question.  His record speaks for itself.  4/5 NCAA tourneys.  20 win seasons.  In the context of KSU basketball, his accomplishments were nothing short of a miracle.   

But, Frank's history.  He's not coming back.  He's done.  gonzo.  yesterday's news. 

The question is whether Weber can replicate the success that Frank had at K-State.  In other words, can Weber take us to the NCAA tourney at a high rate, finish 3-5th in Conference, win 20 wins on a consistent basis, and recruit top 150 talent.

Some on this board state emphatically that the answer is NO.  No way in Hell can this Weber loser come even close to the aformentioned criteria.  But, Weber's track record disproves that. 

Anybody can manipluate numbers to prove their point.  I think the only fair assessment is to look at the entire body of work, not just the last 5 years, or the first 5 years, or the middle 5 years, or the first 3 years and middle 2 years + second to last year.  It doesn't work like that. 

Weber had 2 dog crap years in his 14 year career.  That's a fact.  '07-'08 and '11-'12.  That's the negative.  Nobody is disputing the shittiness of those season.  They happened.  They exist. 

But, sandwiched between those 2 shitty seasons were 3 Frankesque 20+, top5, postseason tourney seasons.  Preceding the first shitty season were 6 great 20+ seasons with 4 conference championships and 6 straight NCAA tourneys, including a championship appearance. 

Again, you can manipulate the numbers to say that 2 out of his last 5 seasons sucked balls, and therefore he's a shitty coach 40% of the time.  Another person could manipulate the numbers to say that he's only had 2 bad seasons in his last 11, and therefore he's a pretty damn good coach 82% of the time.  Just depends on how you want to fit the numbers into your argument.

[naturalselection]

That wasn't really my point.  I was just responding to all the posts about who was "inherited."  But if you compare who was inherited, I bet Weber's Illinois team looks better.  Weber also won two conference championships and went to the national championship game with those players.  So, Frank had less NBA talent to work with -- and achieved much less.  Not sure how you compare them...

Exactly.  Weber inherited a talented, deep, and experienced team and rode them to a sweet 16 and then a championship game.  At a university with a recent culture of winning, and a national (or close) reputation for doing so.  A big fish school in a fabulous recruiting area.  Proceeded to turn average to below average results over the next 7 seasons.  After what should have been momentum building success. 

Martin inherited a couple very talented players who were with him for one season, another top 100 rsci player, and a couple fringy top 150 guys who developed under his coaching into better players then their rankings out of high school suggested.  At a university coming off a NIT season with nothing but crap for the 15 seasons prior.  A school with 0 built in recruiting advantages.  Proceeded to turn in above average BCS results over the next 4 seasons (after his TOP talent left).

I don't see how anyone can look at the two coaches in total and conclude that oscar Weber is anywhere near Frank Martin level.  oscar Weber is clearly a step down.  It's not even debatable and doing so makes anyone look foolish. 

[_33]

I guess I continue feelign compelled to clarify my position. 

1)  do I wish we still had Frank?  yes.
2)  do I think Frank was a good coach?  yes.
3)  do I think Frank was an excellent coach?  no. 
4)  do I think Weber is a good coach?  yes.
5)  do I think Weber is an excellent coach?  no. 

Ultimately, I think Frank and Weber are pretty comparable 2nd tier coaches who have proven to win about the same number of games, finish about the same position in their respective conferences, with about the same level of postseason success.  Frank has been to a higher percentage of NCAA tourneys.  Weber has coached in higher level games.  It's about a wash IMO, with the slight edge to Frank because I like him more. 

I just don't waste my time wallowing in self-pity about our program rapidly devolving into the dark ages of Asbury basketball, because I think Weber has proven himself to be a bit better coach than that. 

Maybe I'll be proven wrong.  But, unlike a lot of people on this board, I actually hope I'm right about Weber.     

Agree 100%.

And the hope that Weber fails because it will make K-State better thing doesn't make any sense to me.

I think this "burn it down" thing has been blown out of proportion by the Woolites, but I'll attempt to defend the rationale anyway:

I would rather oscar not fail at all, but I would rather him fail as quickly and spectacularly as possible while people still care than fail slowly like I expect him to.

KSU will have to take chances on coaching hires to achieve greatness no matter how good of shape the program is in, at least for the forseeable future. I'd rather get to that next "chance" sooner, rather than later.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense. Too bad all the "I just can't cheer against my cats" idiots will never understand it.

[CHONGS]

I think another "Frankesque" season includes playing to your seed in the NCAA tournament.

i think most people's problems with frank all go back to the huggins/cinci style of basketball.  its not pretty in the way they want (on offense, most focus soley on offense).   

[michigancat]

I think another "Frankesque" season includes playing to your seed in the NCAA tournament.

i think most people's problems with frank all go back to the huggins/cinci style of basketball.  its not pretty in the way they want (on offense, most focus soley on offense).   

backdoor cuts on defense

[sonofdaxjones]

I think another "Frankesque" season includes playing to your seed in the NCAA tournament.

i think most people's problems with frank all go back to the huggins/cinci style of basketball.  its not pretty in the way they want (on offense, most focus soley on offense).   

backdoor cuts on defense

That, or drive (watch the entire K-State team fly to the basketball) and kick (to the wide open driveway bomber). 

Hey Frank . . . Fred Hoiberg says thanks!

[naturalselection]

dax, what's your ITK saying about alleged Frank funny business that has us potentially up against it with the NCAA?

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

Weber inherited a talented, deep, and experienced team and rode them to a sweet 16 and then a championship game.  At a university with a recent culture of winning, and a national (or close) reputation for doing so.  A big fish school in a fabulous recruiting area.  Proceeded to turn average to below average results over the next 7 seasons.  After what should have been momentum building success. 

Martin inherited a couple very talented players who were with him for one season, another top 100 rsci player, and a couple fringy top 150 guys who developed under his coaching into better players then their rankings out of high school suggested.  At a university coming off a NIT season with nothing but crap for the 15 seasons prior.  A school with 0 built in recruiting advantages.  Proceeded to turn in above average BCS results over the next 4 seasons (after his TOP talent left).

I don't see how anyone can look at the two coaches in total and conclude that oscar Weber is anywhere near Frank Martin level.  oscar Weber is clearly a step down.  It's not even debatable and doing so makes anyone look foolish.

Okay, so first off, we're completely throwing out Weber building SIU and his 103 wins there, right?  Because SIU was in the Missouri Valley Conference.  Of course, the Mo Valley might be better than the Pac 12 ... but so stipulated.  It's out.

Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison.  Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived.  Self was responsible for just getting two of them.  Weber won two more.  In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952.  From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens.  Self had also just gotten one of each of these.  (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)

Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game.  Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture.  (Not "below average.")  Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years.  This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.

As for Frank, he also is above average.  After Beasley left, he won 20+ games every year, and finished in the top four in the conference and went to the NCAA 3 out of 4 four years.

Both coaches were actually trending downwards number-wise.  Frank went from 2nd to 3rd to 5th in the conference and won less games each of his last 3 seasons.  Weber won less games each of his last 4 seasons and went from 2nd to 5th to 4th to 9th in conference.

Does Frank come out better in this comparison?  Yes, but only marginally.  Does Weber look like a disastrous hire on parallel with Asbury and Wooldridge?  No.

I just don't get the doom and gloom.

[Belvis Noland]

weber inherited better players.  And he produced better results with those players. It is what it is. 

He doesn't suck at coaching. Point remains.

[sonofdaxjones]

dax, what's your ITK saying about alleged Frank funny business that has us potentially up against it with the NCAA?

If that was truly legit, do you think South Carolina hires him? 

I can say they've sniffed at the tree in the last 5 years, but they aren't going to get anywhere at this juncture IMO.

[naturalselection]

Okay, so first off, we're completely throwing out Weber building SIU and his 103 wins there, right?  Because SIU was in the Missouri Valley Conference.  Of course, the Mo Valley might be better than the Pac 12 ... but so stipulated.  It's out.

Frankly, the winning "culture" at Illinois is overplayed in your comparison.  Illinois shared 5 total conference titles from 1952 to 2003, when Weber arrived.  Self was responsible for just getting two of them.  Weber won two more.  In fact, Weber won the first outright (not shared) title at Illinois since 1952.  From 1952 to 2003 Illinois also went to 4 Elite Eights and 7 Sweet Sixteens.  Self had also just gotten one of each of these.  (Over that same time, KSU went to 5 MORE Elite Eights than Illinois and 7 MORE Sweet Sixteen than Illinois.)

Weber then took Illinois to its first ever appearance in a national championship game.  Frankly, other than Self's magnificent three years at Illinois and Weber's even better first two years, Weber's last seven years are entirely in line with Illinois's culture.  (Not "below average.")  Weber won 20+ games in 5 of his last 7 years and had top four conference finishes in 4 of his last 7 years.  This is above-average stuff, even throwing out his first two years at Illinois and his time at SIU.

As for Frank, he also is above average.  After Beasley left, he won 20+ games every year, and finished in the top four in the conference and went to the NCAA 3 out of 4 four years.

Both coaches were actually trending downwards number-wise.  Frank went from 2nd to 3rd to 5th in the conference and won less games each of his last 3 seasons.  Weber won less games each of his last 4 seasons and went from 2nd to 5th to 4th to 9th in conference.

Does Frank come out better in this comparison?  Yes, but only marginally.  Does Weber look like a disastrous hire on parallel with Asbury and Wooldridge?  No.

I just don't get the doom and gloom.

It's not doom and gloom from my perspective.  It's a step backward.  A pretty obvious (imo) step backward.  Is that what we want?  Are we o.k. with that?  The general opinion forming seems to be lets only hope it's a small step back so we can stay middle of the pack longer. 

[Fuktard]

all of you people pining for Frank are delusional.  I'm telling you Frank as our coach next year was NOT an option.  Daris, you asked for facts.  We don't have a lot as _Fan alluded to (lots of rumors), but one thing we do know is that 3 players asked for and met with ADJC.  We don't know who, but I would suggest it wasn't Omari, Watson, Jones or some other meaninless scrub.  So basically 1/3 of the team made a point to meet with Currie (rumors would put the number at more than half).  Can you imagine 15 football players off the 2 deep meeting with the AD?  How many D1 players EVER meet with the AD?  We had a mutiny.  Frank was NOT coming back, and, IMHO, we didn't want him to.