Lowery Interview on 1350

[michigancat]

Why would I want 4 years of horrific basketball in leiu of 4 years of decent basketball?  Isn't the job more attractive for the next guys with some relvenance and maybe some decent pieces in place? 

Considering we hired a coach that got interviewed and rejected by SMU despite going to the NCAA 4 out of 5 years, I would say it isn't.

[threadkiller]

I think the big difference is that I don't think this is going to last more than 4 to 5 years no matter what.  If we have horrific basketball, or if Weber wins 5 straight national championships, we're extremely likley to have a new coach in 4 to 5 years.  It's been like clockwork my whole lifetime, I don't see any reason that is going to change.  Why would I want 4 years of horrific basketball in leiu of 4 years of decent basketball?  Isn't the job more attractive for the next guys with some relvenance and maybe some decent pieces in place?

Your lifetime encompasses mostly horrific basketball.  It is entirely possible (in fact most likely scenario imo) that a decade from today oscar Weber is still our coach and next season will be our most successful in that time.  oscar screams not bad enough to fire easily and not good enough to "move up".  We've never had a coach this close to average AND grandpa likable. 

[michigancat]

gruds was not inherited. kstate and frank managed to retain dalonte, who in turn managed to retain gruds. kudos to kstate and frank. if currie was the AD at the time, that wouldn't have happened. not inherited. not even close.

Right.  Props to K-State for retaining Dalonte and his cache of players for Frank. 

Same argument could be made for Weber "retaining" Self's players.  All of Self's recruits/players could have transfered or followed him to Kansas.  So, guess Weber gets credit for keeping them committed to Illinois, right?   

 

so basically, frank gets no credit for anything accomplished during any of his five seasons?

[Dr Rick Daris]

gruds was not inherited. kstate and frank managed to retain dalonte, who in turn managed to retain gruds. kudos to kstate and frank. if currie was the AD at the time, that wouldn't have happened. not inherited. not even close.

Right.  Props to K-State for retaining Dalonte and his cache of players for Frank. 

Same argument could be made for Weber "retaining" Self's players.  All of Self's recruits/players could have transfered or followed him to Kansas.  So, guess Weber gets credit for keeping them committed to Illinois, right?   

selfs players were already at illinois. rodney was not.  rodney was a junior in highschool. please tell me that i don't have to explain this any further.

[michigancat]

oscar is inheriting McGruder from Huggins!

[SleepFighter]

I think the big difference is that I don't think this is going to last more than 4 to 5 years no matter what.  If we have horrific basketball, or if Weber wins 5 straight national championships, we're extremely likley to have a new coach in 4 to 5 years.  It's been like clockwork my whole lifetime, I don't see any reason that is going to change.  Why would I want 4 years of horrific basketball in leiu of 4 years of decent basketball?  Isn't the job more attractive for the next guys with some relvenance and maybe some decent pieces in place?

Your lifetime encompasses mostly horrific basketball.  It is entirely possible (in fact most likely scenario imo) that a decade from today oscar Weber is still our coach and next season will be our most successful in that time.  oscar screams not bad enough to fire easily and not good enough to "move up".  We've never had a coach this close to average AND grandpa likable.

Just look at how long we held onto Wooly, and he was terrible. 

[sonofdaxjones]

The only reason we "kept" Wooly was because of Wefald.

The most painful part of that (and read carefully because I am going to praise Tim Weiser here) is that I believe and have been told that Weiser was after Pearl, who as you recall was at Wisc-GB or was it Wisc-Mil?? 

However, the one more year of futility with Wooly, got us Huggins.

[catzacker]

i give weber credit for keeping self's players and winning with them, however, I can't for the life of me look past what he did after those players were gone and had to win with his own players...and couldn't.  I can't for the life of me look past the fact that when Weber took over, the Illinois program was leaps and freaking bounds better than the KSU program (which is to say that Illinois went to the post season in 21 of the previous 24 years prior to his arrival, 18 of those in the NCAA, KSU in the 24 years prior to Martin went to post season 10 times, 6 to the NCAA) ...and Weber ended up getting fired. 

I simply can't look past that.

[Dr Rick Daris]

I think the big difference is that I don't think this is going to last more than 4 to 5 years no matter what.  If we have horrific basketball, or if Weber wins 5 straight national championships, we're extremely likley to have a new coach in 4 to 5 years.  It's been like clockwork my whole lifetime, I don't see any reason that is going to change.  Why would I want 4 years of horrific basketball in leiu of 4 years of decent basketball?  Isn't the job more attractive for the next guys with some relvenance and maybe some decent pieces in place?

Your lifetime encompasses mostly horrific basketball.  It is entirely possible (in fact most likely scenario imo) that a decade from today oscar Weber is still our coach and next season will be our most successful in that time.  oscar screams not bad enough to fire easily and not good enough to "move up".  We've never had a coach this close to average AND grandpa likable.

Just look at how long we held onto Wooly, and he was terrible.

nope. in yosh's world, kstate is going to be pretty decent to good the next four years and then suddenly just before the fifth year of oscar weber's five year contract, he will cease to be the head coach. fascinating stuff really. abducted by aliens? we just don't know.

[yosh]

I'll wait to have a contract extension meltdown when the time comes.  I guess I can see the 10 years of .500 basketball concern, but it's too pie in the sky at this point for me to join the burn it down movement.

[michigancat]

i give weber credit for keeping self's players and winning with them, however, I can't for the life of me look past what he did after those players were gone and had to win with his own players...and couldn't.  I can't for the life of me look past the fact that when Weber took over, the Illinois program was leaps and freaking bounds better than the KSU program (which is to say that Illinois went to the post season in 21 of the previous 24 years prior to his arrival, 18 of those in the NCAA, KSU in the 24 years prior to Martin went to post season 10 times, 6 to the NCAA) ...and Weber ended up getting fired. 

I simply can't look past that.

Maybe he inherited the shitty players in the bad years from Self like Frank did w/ Rodney.

[wetwillie]

Why are people calling the round of 32 "the third round"?  Frank had a great track record and won tons of games, no need to start using that kind of bullshit to perpetuate his success.

[michigancat]

I'll wait to have a contract extension meltdown when the time comes.  I guess I can see the 10 years of .500 basketball concern, but it's too pie in the sky at this point for me to join the burn it down movement.

Join the "oscar sucks and never should have been hired and we should fire him at the slightest slipup" movement, then.  He's constantly on "Wooly year 6" mode with me until further notice. Only difference is Simply making the NCAA won't be enough to get me off that mode, and not making the NCAA should mean he's instantly fired, Wooly in an AA Center tunnel style.

[Belvis Noland]

so basically, frank gets no credit for anything accomplished during any of his five seasons?

Frank gets a ton of credit for elevating the profile of the program.  No question.  His record speaks for itself.  4/5 NCAA tourneys.  20 win seasons.  In the context of KSU basketball, his accomplishments were nothing short of a miracle.   

But, Frank's history.  He's not coming back.  He's done.  gonzo.  yesterday's news. 

The question is whether Weber can replicate the success that Frank had at K-State.  In other words, can Weber take us to the NCAA tourney at a high rate, finish 3-5th in Conference, win 20 wins on a consistent basis, and recruit top 150 talent.

Some on this board state emphatically that the answer is NO.  No way in Hell can this Weber loser come even close to the aformentioned criteria.  But, Weber's track record disproves that. 

Anybody can manipluate numbers to prove their point.  I think the only fair assessment is to look at the entire body of work, not just the last 5 years, or the first 5 years, or the middle 5 years, or the first 3 years and middle 2 years + second to last year.  It doesn't work like that. 

Weber had 2 dog crap years in his 14 year career.  That's a fact.  '07-'08 and '11-'12.  That's the negative.  Nobody is disputing the shittiness of those season.  They happened.  They exist. 

But, sandwiched between those 2 shitty seasons were 3 Frankesque 20+, top5, postseason tourney seasons.  Preceding the first shitty season were 6 great 20+ seasons with 4 conference championships and 6 straight NCAA tourneys, including a championship appearance. 

Again, you can manipulate the numbers to say that 2 out of his last 5 seasons sucked balls, and therefore he's a shitty coach 40% of the time.  Another person could manipulate the numbers to say that he's only had 2 bad seasons in his last 11, and therefore he's a pretty damn good coach 82% of the time.  Just depends on how you want to fit the numbers into your argument. 

[Belvis Noland]

On the Self's players talking point, let's not forget that Weber's final two seasons at Southern Illinois he won 28 games (sweet 16) and 25 games (NCAA firt round). 

Obviously he can coach basketball on Frank's level.  With Self's recruits, he elevated himself to Self's level - making a championship. 

Weber ain't Self.  Never will be.  But neither will Frank. 

[CNS]

Your sig pic is depressing the crap out of me.

[michigancat]

so basically, frank gets no credit for anything accomplished during any of his five seasons?

Frank gets a ton of credit for elevating the profile of the program.  No question.  His record speaks for itself.  4/5 NCAA tourneys.  20 win seasons.  In the context of KSU basketball, his accomplishments were nothing short of a miracle.   

But, Frank's history.  He's not coming back.  He's done.  gonzo.  yesterday's news. 

The question is whether Weber can replicate the success that Frank had at K-State.  In other words, can Weber take us to the NCAA tourney at a high rate, finish 3-5th in Conference, win 20 wins on a consistent basis, and recruit top 150 talent.

Some on this board state emphatically that the answer is NO.  No way in Hell can this Weber loser come even close to the aformentioned criteria.  But, Weber's track record disproves that. 

Anybody can manipluate numbers to prove their point.  I think the only fair assessment is to look at the entire body of work, not just the last 5 years, or the first 5 years, or the middle 5 years, or the first 3 years and middle 2 years + second to last year.  It doesn't work like that. 

Weber had 2 dog crap years in his 14 year career.  That's a fact.  '07-'08 and '11-'12.  That's the negative.  Nobody is disputing the shittiness of those season.  They happened.  They exist. 

But, sandwiched between those 2 shitty seasons were 3 Frankesque 20+, top5, postseason tourney seasons.  Preceding the first shitty season were 6 great 20+ seasons with 4 conference championships and 6 straight NCAA tourneys, including a championship appearance. 

Again, you can manipulate the numbers to say that 2 out of his last 5 seasons sucked balls, and therefore he's a shitty coach 40% of the time.  Another person could manipulate the numbers to say that he's only had 2 bad seasons in his last 11, and therefore he's a pretty damn good coach 82% of the time.  Just depends on how you want to fit the numbers into your argument. 

Frank may be gone, but the expectations he created for the program shouldn't be. Judging from your post, they are. Your "Frankesque" description is equal parts baffling and hilarious.

The bottom line is his last five years were justification for firing him and should have been enough for us to not hire him. I mean you didn't see any high-majors looking to hire Tom Asbury in 2000 because of his success at Pepperdine, yet that's what people seem to be doing with Weber.

[Belvis Noland]

Your sig pic is depressing the crap out of me.

fixed

[puniraptor]

Your sig pic is depressing the crap out of me.

fixed

you need to shop those ties purple

[chum1]

[Dr Rick Daris]

gruds was not inherited. kstate and frank managed to retain dalonte, who in turn managed to retain gruds. kudos to kstate and frank. if currie was the AD at the time, that wouldn't have happened. not inherited. not even close.

Right.  Props to K-State for retaining Dalonte and his cache of players for Frank. 

Same argument could be made for Weber "retaining" Self's players.  All of Self's recruits/players could have transfered or followed him to Kansas.  So, guess Weber gets credit for keeping them committed to Illinois, right?   

selfs players were already at illinois. rodney was not.  rodney was a junior in highschool. please tell me that i don't have to explain this any further.

i seriously did want clarification on this btw. because when we talk about inherited players, i don't want there to be any kind of confusion whatsoever on what each inherited and it seems like there might be.

[Belvis Noland]

Frank may be gone, but the expectations he created for the program shouldn't be. Judging from your post, they are. Your "Frankesque" description is equal parts baffling and hilarious.

The bottom line is his last five years was justification for firing him and  should be enough for us to not hire him. I mean you didn't see any high-majors looking to hire Tom Asbury in 2000 because of his success at Pepperdine, yet that's what people seem to be doing with Weber.

How do my posts reflect diminished expectations.  Frank's profile was consistent NCAAs, 20+ wins and 3rd-5th in Conference.  A "Frankesque" season is one which meets that criteria, IMO.  Am I wrong?  Was Frank better than this?  achieve more? 

The Asbury talking point is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  KSU Asbury = 85-88 (29-63), 1 NCAA tourney.  Illini Weber = 210-101, (89-65), 6 NCAA tourneys + 1 naty appearance.  Asbury was horrible.  Weber was not. Serious comparo?  serious question. 

 

[kso_FAN]

Frank may be gone, but the expectations he created for the program shouldn't be. Judging from your post, they are. Your "Frankesque" description is equal parts baffling and hilarious.

The bottom line is his last five years was justification for firing him and  should be enough for us to not hire him. I mean you didn't see any high-majors looking to hire Tom Asbury in 2000 because of his success at Pepperdine, yet that's what people seem to be doing with Weber.

How do my posts reflect diminished expectations.  Frank's profile was consistent NCAAs, 20+ wins and 3rd-5th in Conference.  A "Frankesque" season is one which meets that criteria, IMO.  Am I wrong?  Was Frank better than this?  achieve more? 

The Asbury talking point is simply Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  KSU Asbury = 85-88 (29-63), 1 NCAA tourney.  Illini Weber = 210-101, (89-65), 6 NCAA tourneys + 1 naty appearance.  Asbury was horrible.  Weber was not. Serious comparo?  serious question. 

 

Yeah, the Asbury comparo had to be an exaggeration.

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

Does Weber not get credit for player recruited by his assistants, but Frank does get credit for Te recruits?  Just want to lay out the ground rules for our argument here...

Also, just to be clear Frank inherited JamSam right, who redshirted and was here his whole tenure?  Plus Beasley, Pullen, Walker, Sutton, Hoskins, and god bless him, Colon.

Notable players who came in after Huggins were Curtis Kelly, Denis, Wally Judge, McGruder, and JO (a project who is really panning out).

[CNS]

Your sig pic is depressing the crap out of me.

fixed

Your sig pic is depressing the crap out of me.