Lowery Interview on 1350

[kso_FAN]

oscar Weber has been a head basketball coach for 14 seasons.

Twice his teams finished below .500 in league games. He deserves any criticism that comes with that for both.

Once his team finished .500 in league games. Made the NCAA tournament.

11 times his teams were better than .500 in league games. 7 NCAA tournaments and 1 NIT with those teams.

Fair to point out that both below .500 seasons and the .500 season occured in the last 5 years as a head coach.

At Illinois, Weber was...
10-30 against kenpom Top 10 teams.
20-24 against #11-25
36-21 against #26-50
50-16 against #51-100
51-8 against #101-200
43-2 agaisnt #201 or worse.

If you want to use that to say he's a terrible coach, so be it. I won't dispute that his last 5 seasons at least warrants some concern, I've been consistent with that since he was hired.

[michigancat]

you dug deeper.

Below .500 in conference and one NCAA victory in his final six seasons without the Bill Self booster seat?  When Weber started bowling without the bumpers, Illinois basketball sucked. 

People believe what they want to believe.

For better or worse, most folks already had their mind made up about Weber without really digging deeper and looking at all the available info.

Do we really have to go deeper than his win/loss record?

313-155?  Obviously.

Yeah, you had a good post. But it should be noted that his W% worse than Frank's. Are we allowed to be upset that we hired a coach who is proven to be worse than our previous coach?

Or am I looking too deep again.

[michigancat]

I won't dispute that his last 5 seasons at least warrants some concern, I've been consistent with that since he was hired.

His last 5 years at Illinois don't just "warrant concern", they got him fired and therefore should have eliminated him from consideration for this job. There are too many basketball coaches out there to waste your time with people that got fired for performance.

[MakeItRain]

Meh . . . Frank was pissing up the punch bowl badly.

Multiple guys were going to quit, top instate guys who were seriously considering K-State did not go or were ultimately not going to go to K-State because of . . . Frank.

Complete implosion was clearly on the horizon.

I don't disagree with frank's trajectory, however I disagree with the notion that oscar weber is good for ksu basketball.  we've simply adjusted the trajectory slightly.

I completely disagree with the trajectory.  The both of you spent 10 months bitching about Frank and the program he was running and in an off year he took a team to the third round of the NCAA tournament.  You can't spend as much time teeth knashing as much as you two did and then not acknowledge when the season was over that the program exceeded your expectations.  There was no indication of any implosion before Currie and his lackies started the BS after Frank left.  At 10am on March 17th people were excited at the possibility of KSU knocking off a 2 loss team, a week later the same people were talking about how the program was a mess.

I feel like I'm going to spend the rest of my natural life stopping people from revising the last few months of Frank Martin's time at K-State.  The players were planning a mutiny that the AD knew about.  Despite this the three best players on the team, who were all going to leave, were playing the best basketball of their lives and the AD was going to extend the coach even though he thought half the roster was leaving.

bullshit

I should have explained myself more.  I don’t think there was going to be a player mutiny if he stayed, sans the normal franking and will crying himself to sleep at night somewhere else.  Really, it’s just a personal opinion based on his recruiting, which I didn’t feel was going to be able to withstand the (a) franking and (b) the expectations.  Maybe trajectory is the wrong word.  I dunno.  I’m not on the “everyone was leaving because of frank” train nor do I think it was a mess before he left.

good post, sorry I misunderstood your POV

[yosh]

you dug deeper.

Below .500 in conference and one NCAA victory in his final six seasons without the Bill Self booster seat?  When Weber started bowling without the bumpers, Illinois basketball sucked. 

People believe what they want to believe.

For better or worse, most folks already had their mind made up about Weber without really digging deeper and looking at all the available info.

Do we really have to go deeper than his win/loss record?

313-155?  Obviously.

Yeah, you had a good post. But it should be noted that his W% worse than Frank's. Are we allowed to be upset that we hired a coach who is proven to be worse than our previous coach?

Or am I looking too deep again.

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

[catzacker]

you dug deeper.

Below .500 in conference and one NCAA victory in his final six seasons without the Bill Self booster seat?  When Weber started bowling without the bumpers, Illinois basketball sucked. 

People believe what they want to believe.

For better or worse, most folks already had their mind made up about Weber without really digging deeper and looking at all the available info.

Do we really have to go deeper than his win/loss record?

313-155?  Obviously.

Yeah, you had a good post. But it should be noted that his W% worse than Frank's. Are we allowed to be upset that we hired a coach who is proven to be worse than our previous coach?

Or am I looking too deep again.

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

There's always a chance.  But what is more likely? 

[yosh]

you dug deeper.

Below .500 in conference and one NCAA victory in his final six seasons without the Bill Self booster seat?  When Weber started bowling without the bumpers, Illinois basketball sucked. 

People believe what they want to believe.

For better or worse, most folks already had their mind made up about Weber without really digging deeper and looking at all the available info.

Do we really have to go deeper than his win/loss record?

313-155?  Obviously.

Yeah, you had a good post. But it should be noted that his W% worse than Frank's. Are we allowed to be upset that we hired a coach who is proven to be worse than our previous coach?

Or am I looking too deep again.

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

There's always a chance.  But what is more likely?

IMO? I don't think were going to win a conference championship.  I think the Weber era will be worse than the Martin era, but better than any of the four previous eras.  I think there is a chance he could have one disasterous season, but I don't think that it's necessarily inevitible.  Most likely we'll at least manage to get on the bubble most years. 

[michigancat]

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

I have long conceded that he will attain some success at KSU, particularly next season. But at what point can you concede he's a failure? I mean we didn't give Ron Prince 3 full years. Do you fire oscar if he misses the tourney in year 2 and year 3?

[catzacker]

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

I have long conceded that he will attain some success at KSU, particularly next season. But at what point can you concede he's a failure? I mean we didn't give Ron Prince 3 full years. Do you fire oscar if he misses the tourney in year 2 and year 3?

All cone and no chicken nuggets?

[michigancat]

Things were not good behind the scenes, you can probably put a lot of that on Currie, but you also have to put a big chunk of that on Frank.   Frank being Frank WAS hurting K-State on the recruiting trail (and that's with the full awknowledgement that Frank was the reason K-State was in a postion to have Frank's demeanor ultimately be a huge deciding factor.  In years past those kids wouldn't have given K-State a 2nd look).

The pot continues to boil, frustration builds . . . implosion.  Just my opinion. 

I've talked to a source I trust and is most certainly ITK, and I am NOT defending Currie or the hiring of Weber at all.  So the resident BiPolarPhogNetTalkingPoint and the TooCoolforSchoolers can just save their energy with their (always) futile attempts to PI me.



 

I don't care how ITK your source is there is nothing in your post to suggest that anything changed from the previous 4 years. I am sure "frank being frank" has hurt us on the recruiting trail recently, but when hasn't it? You're smarter than this, dax.

[kso_FAN]

Do you fire oscar if he misses the tourney in year 2 and year 3?

It has to be considered at that point, especially if he has another terrible conference season like he did at Illinois. The fear that he repeats Asbury's first 5 years (in some order or another) is legitimate and if the program is trending that direction a change will have to be made.

[michigancat]

Things had changed, on court demeanor was carrying off the court,  verbal abuse had been ratcheted to extremely personal levels . . . when what I am being told makes me say "DAMN" than its pretty bad IMO. 

You're also smart enough to know that eventually "Frank being Frank" becomes even more difficult to explain to recruits, the track record begins to build on itself and becomes more difficult to overcome. 

Oh GMAFB. You think Frank didn't yell at and cuss people out in practice before this season? You think he never told someone he would burn their house down with them in it before this season? Also, how can you explain HIS ENTIRE STAFF following him to South Carolina. Literally everyone went with him. THINK ABOUT IT.

[Dr Rick Daris]

IMO? I don't think were going to win a conference championship.  I think the Weber era will be worse than the Martin era, but better than any of the four previous eras.  I think there is a chance he could have one disasterous season, but I don't think that it's necessarily inevitible.  Most likely we'll at least manage to get on the bubble most years.

agree on not winning any kind of championship. agree on being worse than martin era. disagree on it being better than any of the four previous. agree he could have a disasterous season.

lastly, agree that we will most likely manage to get on the the bubble more often than not (>50%) and it's this last point that kills me. there is no chance for any kind of great success. with huggins there was a chance. with martin there was a chance. with weber there isn't. people that are accepting this hire are happy to just "manage to get on the bubble most years" and that isn't and shouldn't be acceptable. it's sad and pathetic. i'll take four years of horrific basketball if it means blowing it up and getting to start over with at least a chance for great success. would much rather have that then a ten year period of time where they "manage to get on the bubble most years".  i mean what's the point?

[yosh]

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

I have long conceded that he will attain some success at KSU, particularly next season. But at what point can you concede he's a failure? I mean we didn't give Ron Prince 3 full years. Do you fire oscar if he misses the tourney in year 2 and year 3?

I have not defended his firing from Illinios.  I fully understand he failed at Illinois.  I understand that he was fired for performance.  If I were the Illinois AD, I would have done the same thing.  If I was in charge at KSU I would fire him the first time he was under .500 in conference.  Of course, I would have never hired him.  I don't recall saying anything that would defend his firing.

I don't think he a bumbling idiot, who sucks at everything.  I don't think he backed his way in to 300 D1 wins.  I do think there is a reasonable chance that he could have some success without burning the program to the ground.
   

 

[michigancat]

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

I have long conceded that he will attain some success at KSU, particularly next season. But at what point can you concede he's a failure? I mean we didn't give Ron Prince 3 full years. Do you fire oscar if he misses the tourney in year 2 and year 3?

I have not defended his firing from Illinios.  I fully understand he failed at Illinois.  I understand that he was fired for performance.  If I were the Illinois AD, I would have done the same thing.  If I was in charge at KSU I would fire him the first time he was under .500 in conference.  Of course, I would have never hired him.  I don't recall saying anything that would defend his firing.

I don't think he a bumbling idiot, who sucks at everything.  I don't think he backed his way in to 300 D1 wins.  I do think there is a reasonable chance that he could have some success without burning the program to the ground.
   

I never claimed he was a bumbling idiot who sucks at everything, nor have I claimed he backed his way into 300 wins. If anything, I would say his aw-shucks hokeyness and stunts like having his family on stage at his farewell press conference before taking everyone out to chicken nuggets are very calculated moves that appeal to people like...say...John Currie.

I also don't think he'll burn the program to the ground, just lead us on a long, slow path to irrelevance that everyone accepts and rationalizes along the way. Which probably hurts worse.

[Belvis Noland]

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

This is pretty much my position.  Weber is an above average coach.  Just like Frank.  I think there's a very realistic possibility that he can finish 3rd to 5th in the BigXII every year.  Just Like Frank.  And I think he'll be able to recruit 3* 100-150 talent to KSU.  Just like Frank. 

Those actively rooting against the guy are pretty pathetic, IMHO.   

[michigancat]

Well you shouldn't be thrilled.  I'm not.  However, at some point you have to concede that the guy can't really be a bumbling idiot. At some point you have to concede that there is still a decent chance that he can attain some level of success at KSU.  I'm not counting on it, but I don't understand how you can just discount the possibility completely, or even actively root against it.

This is pretty much my position.  Weber is an above average coach.  Just like Frank.  I think there's a very realistic possibility that he can finish 3rd to 5th in the BigXII every year.  Just Like Frank.  And I think he'll be able to recruit 3* 100-150 talent to KSU.  Just like Frank. 

I would agree if you threw out oscar's last 5 yeasr, but you can't.

How do you think oscar can finish 3rd-5th in the Big 12 every year when he only had a similar finish twice in his last 5 years at illinois? How can you call him an above average coach when his record over the last five seasons at Illinois was below .500?

Heck, even if you include oscar's years w/ Self's recruits, his Big 10 record is worse than Frank's Big 12 record.

[steve dave]

Well, Frank inherited some pretty great players too. 

[michigancat]

Well, Frank inherited some pretty great players too. 

He did. And all of them but Pullen were gone after year one. And he was still making the tournament when ALL the players he inherited were gone.

[Belvis Noland]

He did. And all of them but Pullen were gone after year one. And he was still making the tournament when ALL the players he inherited were gone.

The best player on his team - Gruds - was inherited.  To state otherwise is silly. 

[Dr Rick Daris]

Well, Frank inherited some pretty great players too.

yes. not as many though. also, year five frank (all his own players) went to the third round of the tourney with people genuinely talking about possibly beating #1 seed syracuse.  year five oscar (all his own players) went 16-19 and 5-13 in conference.

[yosh]

IMO? I don't think were going to win a conference championship.  I think the Weber era will be worse than the Martin era, but better than any of the four previous eras.  I think there is a chance he could have one disasterous season, but I don't think that it's necessarily inevitible.  Most likely we'll at least manage to get on the bubble most years.

agree on not winning any kind of championship. agree on being worse than martin era. disagree on it being better than any of the four previous. agree he could have a disasterous season.

lastly, agree that we will most likely manage to get on the the bubble more often than not (>50%) and it's this last point that kills me. there is no chance for any kind of great success. with huggins there was a chance. with martin there was a chance. with weber there isn't. people that are accepting this hire are happy to just "manage to get on the bubble most years" and that isn't and shouldn't be acceptable. it's sad and pathetic. i'll take four years of horrific basketball if it means blowing it up and getting to start over with at least a chance for great success. would much rather have that then a ten year period of time where they "manage to get on the bubble most years".  i mean what's the point?

I think the big difference is that I don't think this is going to last more than 4 to 5 years no matter what.  If we have horrific basketball, or if Weber wins 5 straight national championships, we're extremely likley to have a new coach in 4 to 5 years.  It's been like clockwork my whole lifetime, I don't see any reason that is going to change.  Why would I want 4 years of horrific basketball in leiu of 4 years of decent basketball?  Isn't the job more attractive for the next guys with some relvenance and maybe some decent pieces in place? 

[Dr Rick Daris]

He did. And all of them but Pullen were gone after year one. And he was still making the tournament when ALL the players he inherited were gone.

The best player on his team - Gruds - was inherited.  To state otherwise is silly.

gruds was not inherited. kstate and frank managed to retain dalonte, who in turn managed to retain gruds. kudos to kstate and frank. if currie was the AD at the time, that wouldn't have happened. not inherited. not even close.

[Dr Rick Daris]

IMO? I don't think were going to win a conference championship.  I think the Weber era will be worse than the Martin era, but better than any of the four previous eras.  I think there is a chance he could have one disasterous season, but I don't think that it's necessarily inevitible.  Most likely we'll at least manage to get on the bubble most years.

agree on not winning any kind of championship. agree on being worse than martin era. disagree on it being better than any of the four previous. agree he could have a disasterous season.

lastly, agree that we will most likely manage to get on the the bubble more often than not (>50%) and it's this last point that kills me. there is no chance for any kind of great success. with huggins there was a chance. with martin there was a chance. with weber there isn't. people that are accepting this hire are happy to just "manage to get on the bubble most years" and that isn't and shouldn't be acceptable. it's sad and pathetic. i'll take four years of horrific basketball if it means blowing it up and getting to start over with at least a chance for great success. would much rather have that then a ten year period of time where they "manage to get on the bubble most years".  i mean what's the point?

I think the big difference is that I don't think this is going to last more than 4 to 5 years no matter what.  If we have horrific basketball, or if Weber wins 5 straight national championships, we're extremely likley to have a new coach in 4 to 5 years.  It's been like clockwork my whole lifetime, I don't see any reason that is going to change.  Why would I want 4 years of horrific basketball in leiu of 4 years of decent basketball?  Isn't the job more attractive for the next guys with some relvenance and maybe some decent pieces in place?

well everyone is wanting to defend weber based on what he did at illinois for 9 years, so i don't think it's a stretch to say 10. maybe i should've said 9. that would've been better. also, i'd say that coaching history is more more predictive of coaching future than school history is. so 9 years of being on the bubble more often than not. throw a rough ridin' party.

also, agree that i'd rather have four years of decent than four years of horrible. riddle me this though, why would a 55 year old oscar weber who just signed a 5 (five) year contract to coach at kstate. a contract that puts him in the top 30 in terms of college coaches salaries, suddenly stop coaching after 4 years if he's been decently average. you think he'll die? you think he'll leave to take a better job? you think kstate will fire him?

[Belvis Noland]

gruds was not inherited. kstate and frank managed to retain dalonte, who in turn managed to retain gruds. kudos to kstate and frank. if currie was the AD at the time, that wouldn't have happened. not inherited. not even close.

Right.  Props to K-State for retaining Dalonte and his cache of players for Frank. 

Same argument could be made for Weber "retaining" Self's players.  All of Self's recruits/players could have transfered or followed him to Kansas.  So, guess Weber gets credit for keeping them committed to Illinois, right?