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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: Kat Kid on December 30, 2012, 05:28:26 PM
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TL;DR: Nino plays too much, JO and DJamer not enough.
I have been a bit puzzled about oscar's rotations and starting lineups, so I thought I would take a bit of time to look at them more in-depth. I went through and took a look at the starters for every game, starting with a season overview, going in-depth on some of the notable non-con games so far. This thing got long, but if you stick through it I think you will see that there is ample evidence to suggest that our post minutes are being badly mishandled.
Season Starts and Bench Minutes
position name games played-games started
PG- Angel (11-11)
G- Will (12-12)
G- Rod (12-12)
F- Nino (11-10)
F- Gip/JO (6 starts each)
*G/F- Shane (10-3 picking up the missed starts from Nino/Angel)
Comment
A few things here. The guard slots basically have been unchanged and there is nothing to really report there outside of the fact that Tay has zero starts thus far and Southwell has 3. Both are slight surprises to me. The second thing that really stands out (which I will expound upon later) is what is happening with the bigs. Gipson and JO have 6 starts a piece while Nino has been a fixture at the four. The strange thing is that minutes wise Gipson is the most played big (20.9mpg), followed by Nino (16mpg) and JO/Diaz/DJamer all close together. My guess is oscar views Nino as his "energy" guy and wants him on the floor to start the game, then hopes that JO/Diaz/DJamer can come in and provide some size right as the back up bigs are coming in or the starting oppo bigs may be tiring/have picked up a foul.
Bench minutes
*6th man
*Shane 19mpg
Tay 17 mpg
Omari 10 mpg
Bigs
JO 13 mpg
DJamer 13 mpg
Diaz 11 mpg
Comment
When looking at the entire season, it would appear that oscar thinks roughly equally of JO/DJamer/Diaz and likes Gip and Nino the best of the 5. But looking at the most recent lineups that isn't exactly the case. The early evidence was mixed, with Nino getting starts, very little of Gip, small but growing minutes for DJamer (who had some really nice games early) and Diaz and JO roughly equal, but with JO getting starts. I was pretty furious at the time, but I have to admit oscar has shown some progress, although I might wonder why it took him so long to figure some basic facts out (like Diaz is much worse than JO) and I don't think I am going to ever win on this Nino thing. But I offer the following evidence that at least the Diaz problem it is getting better, while other problems have emerged [ starters in bold, minutes in () ]:
Michigan:
Nino (12)
JO (16)
DJamer (18)
Diaz (13)
Gip (11)
Terrible minute distribution.
George Washington:
Nino (16)
Gip (31)
JO (16)
DJamer (12)
Diaz (5)
Much better and getting close to my ideal distribution of minutes.
Gonzaga:
Nino (6, got injured)
Gip (19)
Diaz (20)
DJamer (18)
JO (10)
This was the most indefensible use of resources on the season and a oscar hater's delight. Olynyk completely destroyed the post players and JO might've been an effective response if he'd been used from the start. But they all sucked, the whole group combined for 10 points and 12 rebounds so I'm not sure that oscar really could've done much as he was grasping and Rodney's 4 points had more to do with our loss as the bigs.
Texas Southern:
Gip (26)
Shane (36)
JO (10)
Diaz (6)
DJamer (6)
I went back and forth on whether to include Shane's minutes as part of the bigs here. oscar clearly values Shane's guard skills over his practically non-existent. He basically played Nino's minutes, then also played his normal minutes at the 3. This was also the best game of his career so it is an outlier both in opportunity and production. I mean Shane even rebounded! I kind of get what Nino brings (Energy/Rebounding) but at the four what does Shane bring?..... mobility away from the basket? Passing? Energy?. This will be the only time you will hear me associate Shane with "energy" evenly indirectly but I am having a hard time making a connection between he and Nino other than "size." oscar does not like having two non-Nino bigs in to start the game. I am not sure why that is, and I could be forcing a connection, but the evidence says that he will not start Gip and JO/Diaz/DJamer alongside each other under any circumstance (although Diaz/JO started both the exhibitions). There is ample evidence for this and it continues with Florida.
Florida:
Gip (18)
Shane (24)
JO (18)
Nino (17)
DJamer (3)
JO was dominant for large stretches, Gip and Nino played solid if unremarkable minutes against two very good posts in Patric Young and Erick Murphy. Shane did Shane things and Diaz and DJamer were absent. Shane was again slotted in the "Nino role" even though Nino was available and played significant minutes. A combination of Shane's career night against Texas Southern and Nino's injury probably conspired to give Shane the nod. Compared with where we started at the beginning of the year, (roughly even minutes for Diaz/JO) and where we were in our darkest days against Michigan (roughly even minutes for every big) and Gonzaga (20 minutes for Diaz) I believe the rotations are beginning to take shape and they are encouraging. But oscar philosophically seems wedded to an undersized tweener getting significant minutes starting in the post and with this lineup this is indefensible. It is a complete misallocation of resources in service of I'm not really sure. Given the constraint, I think oscar is doing about as best he can, but why does he feel the need to tie a hand behind his own back?
This leads us to the logical contortions that oscar went through last night:
Starters vs. UMKC
PG- Shane Southwell
G- Will Spradling
G- Rodney McGruder
F- Thomas Gipson (24)
F- Nino Williams (32)
Bench
JO (12)
Diaz (3)
DJamer (4)
Brucecuses- Playing Shane a better passer (the worst non-big ballhandler) at the point is better than playing Will, Tay is not suited out, Angel DNP, Michael Orris sucks, I can't play two bigs at the same time.
Perhaps the most lollable lineup of the year was in for a few minutes last night too:
G- Omari
G- Sprads
F- Shane
F- DJamer
C- Diaz
Conclusions:
There are 3 main problems that I want to highlight. They are obviously interrelated. The minutes must be filled and it is a zero-sum proposition, someone must take from the pool while someone else must go without. Minutes are precious things and they should be scarce for the weak and plentiful for the strong. Basketball is a cruel world. oscar has spent many of these precious minutes this year poorly in my opinion and while those minutes can not be recovered, they can be spent differently going forward.
The JO Problem
JO showed against Florida what makes him so dangerous, which makes his spotty opportunities this year even more frustrating. If the premise is that oscar has given Diaz so many minutes because he is trying to develop him (any arguments that he is good enough to be on the court in the proportions that he has been thus far will be immediately dismissed) then JO is as damning a counter as exists. The problem is two fold though because the development of Diaz has been terrible too. Diaz is still so lost he cannot set a screen on offense or correctly position himself or protect the rim on defense.
JO is capable of being an enormous asset even if his offense is substandard, but he is playing 2 more mpg than Adrian Diaz and 3 fewer than Nino Williams and 7 fewer than Thomas Gipson. I don't understand it. Even if you think starts are irrelevant, the minutes make no sense. JO has some responsibility for the many times he has played poorly, but oscar has mismanaged the allocation of minutes so as to further limit JO's development.
The Nino Problem
I do not begrudge oscar his Nino love. Every coach has a weakness. There are always players that coaches will play with almost no regard to their worth. But this is love affair is without any sense of proportion or restraint. It is one thing to have a side piece, it is another to bring your lover to the dinner table. Nino does not get to the line, he does not shoot well, he cannot protect the rim, he does not handle or pass the ball particularly well. He is an average rebounder, he hustles, he can set a screen and he plays decent defense. The fact that he has started every game he has been healthy and played more minutes than JO is completely insane. I do not get it. But the worst part is that oscar seems to want to slot in Shane when JO is unavailable. Shane has gotten better, Shane offers some things, but Shane and Nino are in no way interchangeable. That much became clear when Shane played some point last night. oscar seems committed to playing smaller come hell or high water, and even when both show up he will still only throw one post out there. I don't understand it.
The DJamer Problem
I think DJamer is better than Nino. I have reasons to believe this, both statistical and with my own eyes, but it is really that simple. He rebounds better. He can finish better. He plays better post defense. He gets to the line more. He is not as fast, he can not play players away from the hoop as well as Nino and he will not get as many floor burns, but I don't get what I'm missing. If you just swapped roles DJamer for Nino, I'd be so much happier. It would still be a travesty for JO, but at least DJamer would be producing. Someone needs to stage an intervention with oscar.
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Great post kk
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sorry,
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi709.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww92%2FTommyRoanoke%2FTayDidNotRead.gif&hash=f0e294bddeffe97e7e6c409ea70442646b3ed9ae)
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Thats the longest inside joke I've ever read
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There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start. He isn't playing well? Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.
oscar needs to start gip and JO. oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so. That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes.
Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr? Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.
Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO. We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
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Glad I got that off my chest you guys.
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oscar has said repeatedly that playing 2 "true bigs" together makes it too congested inside for Rodney to do Rodney things, hence Shane/Nino at 4.
Didn't look but seems Shane and others have picked up some DNP-CDs. If so, did you count those as 0-minute games or just take the game away when figuring average minutes?
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There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start. He isn't playing well? Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.
oscar needs to start gip and JO. oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so. That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes.
Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr? Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.
Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO. We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape. Do you even watch the games?
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oscar is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on the rod point. No stats looked up here, but my eyes tell me that rod got plenty, if not more, looks from the paint last season when we had two bigs in at all times.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
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oscar is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on the rod point. No stats looked up here, but my eyes tell me that rod got plenty, if not more, looks from the paint last season when we had two bigs in at all times.
I simply report #oscar; I don't support #oscar.
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oscar has said repeatedly that playing 2 "true bigs" together makes it too congested inside for Rodney to do Rodney things, hence Shane/Nino at 4.
Didn't look but seems Shane and others have picked up some DNP-CDs. If so, did you count those as 0-minute games or just take the game away when figuring average minutes?
You bring up a good point re: oscar's reasoning. I forgot about that, but considering that I'm not sure what the difference between Nino and DJamer is in that scenario. I'd rather have Shane if this whole no bigs thing is a given. All that said, Rod managed to get shots last year and he could easily get shots this year if Gip and JO were in the game at the same time.
however kstatesports.com figures that is how the season stats were figured.
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There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start. He isn't playing well? Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.
oscar needs to start gip and JO. oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so. That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes.
Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr? Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.
Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO. We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape. Do you even watch the games?
Ok. But what about the other players that have played? We can compare them. I just spent some time doing that.
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I am pretty sure that having actual bigs in will draw the larger defenders thus letting rod exploit a smaller 3 guard in the paint.
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All that said, Rod managed to get shots last year and he could easily get shots this year if Gip and JO were in the game at the same time.
But can he get rebounds with all that "beef" inside?
Answer me when you've taken a team of Bill Seff's players to the national championship.
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There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start. He isn't playing well? Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.
oscar needs to start gip and JO. oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so. That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes.
Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr? Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.
Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO. We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape. Do you even watch the games?
Ok. But what about the other players that have played? We can compare them. I just spent some time doing that.
They've all been at least marginally better. What do think, play with 4?
DNR you're uninteresting stream of consciousness
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There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start. He isn't playing well? Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.
oscar needs to start gip and JO. oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so. That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes.
Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr? Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.
Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO. We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape. Do you even watch the games?
We have played no one so far with the exception of Zaga and Florida. Exactly who have we played that JO would have lost the game for us? This time of the year is for getting the team to flow and getting the individual funks worked out. Huge oscar fail that we still are full of JO funk and are one week from starting conf play. HUGE. Probably his biggest failure to date as a cat.
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KK, this post was worthy of being on the blog. Called it Kid Talk or Kat Nip or something. :dunno:
oscar is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on the rod point. No stats looked up here, but my eyes tell me that rod got plenty, if not more, looks from the paint last season when we had two bigs in at all times.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
This year for Rod: (percentages of shot attempts)
Shots at the rim: 23%. 2 PT Jump shots: 54%. 3 PT Jump shots: 23%.
Last year for Rod:
Shots at the rim: 24%. 2 PT Jump shots: 44%. 3 PT Jump shots: 32%.
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KK, this post was worthy of being on the blog. Called it Kid Talk or Kat Nip or something. :dunno:
DA KAT KAVE
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Wrinkle?
"I would like a starting seven, a starting eight," Weber said. "If we get to where we have a starting eight, then we really have a chance to compete in the Big 12."
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I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.
Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.
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There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start. He isn't playing well? Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.
oscar needs to start gip and JO. oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so. That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes.
Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr? Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.
Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO. We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2
Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape. Do you even watch the games?
We have played no one so far with the exception of Zaga and Florida. Exactly who have we played that JO would have lost the game for us? This time of the year is for getting the team to flow and getting the individual funks worked out. Huge oscar fail that we still are full of JO funk and are one week from starting conf play. HUGE. Probably his biggest failure to date as a cat.
Huge coaching fail would be to allow the guy not trying and playing like crap to play over others. This one is on JO dood.
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DJamer is not ready for significant minutes, that being said he's better than Nino. I'm not going to talk about the JO minutes thing again until January 7, I'm not in the mood to get pissed again. Literally everyone knows oscar is being moronic for how he is handling JO. It was interesting to hear him called out for it last week by a couple of media members. This guy makes it difficult to sustain any goodwill for his program.
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January 7
:excited:
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I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.
Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.
nino can't shoot, so let's get that talking point out of there. I know that isn't your claim but we are about halfway through the year. He has had plenty of opportunities. He can't shoot. DJamer has a higher O-board and D-board % from kenpom, he is also only 1 reb/game short of nino in 3mpg fewer. He is not as quick/athletic. I know it isn't a perfect metric but if Nino is supposedly significantly more athletic/plays harder why in 26 fewer minutes does DJamer have: 7 more blocks/2 fewer steals? I mean the lost offense between the two is significant to me. DJamer is an o-reb putback guy and doesn't take bad shots, but comprehensively I think he is better. The one big advantae Nino does seem to have is he seems to know the offense better than the other bigs, but gmafb
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I think oscar should start the players with the largest honkers. I would measure by length and not by girth. And they would have to be semi flacid. Not completely hard because that would be gay, but enough in their hose to get the wrinkles out. Fair is fair and that to me sounds like the best way to get our starting 5 more consistant playing time.
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I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.
Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.
nino can't shoot, so let's get that talking point out of there. I know that isn't your claim but we are about halfway through the year. He has had plenty of opportunities. He can't shoot. DJamer has a higher O-board and D-board % from kenpom, he is also only 1 reb/game short of nino in 3mpg fewer. He is not as quick/athletic. I know it isn't a perfect metric but if Nino is supposedly significantly more athletic/plays harder why in 26 fewer minutes does DJamer have: 7 more blocks/2 fewer steals? I mean the lost offense between the two is significant to me. DJamer is an o-reb putback guy and doesn't take bad shots, but comprehensively I think he is better. The one big advantae Nino does seem to have is he seems to know the offense better than the other bigs, but gmafb
Yeah, his shooting percentage shows that he's not some great shooter. But I think his willingness to take that 15 footer the offense generates is something that oscar likes in this offense. DJamer is just going to be an around the basket guy and teams have to respect Nino out to 15. At least in theory.
And coming in at his size I'm not sure how many minutes DJamer can play. We all saw Gip wear down as the season went along last year. Nino is unknown because he's been hurt so much, but it at least it appears he can maintain energy for the minutes he gets, I'm not sold DJamer can do that yet.
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I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.
Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.
nino can't shoot, so let's get that talking point out of there. I know that isn't your claim but we are about halfway through the year. He has had plenty of opportunities. He can't shoot. DJamer has a higher O-board and D-board % from kenpom, he is also only 1 reb/game short of nino in 3mpg fewer. He is not as quick/athletic. I know it isn't a perfect metric but if Nino is supposedly significantly more athletic/plays harder why in 26 fewer minutes does DJamer have: 7 more blocks/2 fewer steals? I mean the lost offense between the two is significant to me. DJamer is an o-reb putback guy and doesn't take bad shots, but comprehensively I think he is better. The one big advantae Nino does seem to have is he seems to know the offense better than the other bigs, but gmafb
Yeah, his shooting percentage shows that he's not some great shooter. But I think his willingness to take that 15 footer the offense generates is something that oscar likes in this offense. DJamer is just going to be an around the basket guy and teams have to respect Nino out to 15. At least in theory.
And coming in at his size I'm not sure how many minutes DJamer can play. We all saw Gip wear down as the season went along last year. Nino is unknown because he's been hurt so much, but it at least it appears he can maintain energy for the minutes he gets, I'm not sold DJamer can do that yet.
I guess I wasn't being clear. I was going to add in my ideal rotation, but I really didn't want to break the 2000 word barrier and really I probably should've cut out the game by game banter and just had the three problems at the end with stats in the body. My ideal lineup would be:
Gip 20-25
JO 20-25
DJamer 10-15
Nino 10-15
Shane 10-15
Diaz scraps
I would prefer if Nino played slightly less, DJamer slightly more, JO significantly more, Diaz significantly less, Shane about the same at the 4 as he has with Nino injured/Diaz's reduced minutes.
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I agree with KK that we should play our best power forward and center the most minutes at power forward and center.
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I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.
Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.
nino can't shoot, so let's get that talking point out of there. I know that isn't your claim but we are about halfway through the year. He has had plenty of opportunities. He can't shoot. DJamer has a higher O-board and D-board % from kenpom, he is also only 1 reb/game short of nino in 3mpg fewer. He is not as quick/athletic. I know it isn't a perfect metric but if Nino is supposedly significantly more athletic/plays harder why in 26 fewer minutes does DJamer have: 7 more blocks/2 fewer steals? I mean the lost offense between the two is significant to me. DJamer is an o-reb putback guy and doesn't take bad shots, but comprehensively I think he is better. The one big advantae Nino does seem to have is he seems to know the offense better than the other bigs, but gmafb
Yeah, his shooting percentage shows that he's not some great shooter. But I think his willingness to take that 15 footer the offense generates is something that oscar likes in this offense. DJamer is just going to be an around the basket guy and teams have to respect Nino out to 15. At least in theory.
And coming in at his size I'm not sure how many minutes DJamer can play. We all saw Gip wear down as the season went along last year. Nino is unknown because he's been hurt so much, but it at least it appears he can maintain energy for the minutes he gets, I'm not sold DJamer can do that yet.
Your first paragraph described Diaz. I dont think throw it at the rim and go get it is effective for the bigs too. Nino gives us nothing unique at all.
Last season Gip's production was down not only because the competition improved but he was overweight and the grind became an issue, I'm not concerned about DJs fitness.
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I agree with KK that we should play our best power forward and center the most minutes at power forward and center.
Yeah this is a pretty simple argument, Nino is getting too many minutes. The end.
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I agree with KK that we should play our best power forward and center the most minutes at power forward and center.
Yeah this is a pretty simple argument, Nino is getting too many minutes. The end.
Yeah, it took me a long rough ridin' time to type that out. I think it was worth it, but maybe not.
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I also think part of Gip's prob was his lack of jump and/or height. Not having one and playing the 5 is doable, not having both is an issue.
I am very worried that soph Gip, although improved physically, still won't manage an adequate presence at the rim as the only low post option(sorry but shane will not be a productive 4 in conf) in conference play and that will only allow teams to exploit our lack of guard play by not having to contend with a more substantial post player.
That said, I really like this year's gip. I am a fan.
Not trying to bait MIR into the JO discussion here, but it really is super important to this team that he get much more PT in a role that allows him to thrive. Otherwise conference could be super disappointing.
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I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.
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I agree with KK that we should play our best power forward and center the most minutes at power forward and center.
Yeah this is a pretty simple argument, Nino is getting too many minutes. The end.
Yeah, it took me a long rough ridin' time to type that out. I think it was worth it, but maybe not.
No it was good work. I freaked out about this for two hours straight last night in chat.
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I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.
LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!
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I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.
LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!
We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.
Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.
To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.
Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.
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We'll really compete if we can start 8 against 5, assuming that doesn't make things too congested for McG.
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I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.
LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!
We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.
Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.
To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.
Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.
Fair enough. I think we all agree the #1 problem is that oscar has refused to budge from his assertion that Nino is one of those 6.
That said, do you put any stock in the distribution of starts? Tabling the minutes discussion. I mean it is weird right.
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Guys, I don't have any statistically reason for this, but I kinda like Nino, or at least the thought of Nino. I think he could be a Jamar type only not as good at it as Jamar. He is so physical he should be getting to the line a bunch more and I think he will figure that out over time. I also think he can be the type of guy to frustrate the crap out of some of the other team's guys.
Also, iirc, he was a decent shooter his sr yr of hs. I have hope that he can find that again.
I definitely haven't given up on him.
Hope, I guess....
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I've got a post-it covering Nino's face on my schedule poster at the office.
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Guys, I don't have any statistically reason for this, but I kinda like Nino, or at least the thought of Nino. I think he could be a Jamar type only not as good at it as Jamar. He is so physical he should be getting to the line a bunch more and I think he will figure that out over time. I also think he can be the type of guy to frustrate the crap out of some of the other team's guys.
Also, iirc, he was a decent shooter his sr yr of hs. I have hope that he can find that again.
I definitely haven't given up on him.
Hope, I guess....
Well I sure would like even a poor man's JamSam that was a decent shooter, frustrates the crap out of the other team's guys and gets to the line. But that isn't Nino. It isn't just statistics that say your hopes are foolish, but the FT rate in particular is just terrible. The only players that are worse? Rod, Shane and Tay.
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Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now. Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset. I know it is foolish.
Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going). I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.
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Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now. Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset. I know it is foolish.
Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going). I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.
All solid points. My counter would be that he kind of sucks at basketball. I hope you are right though.
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Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now. Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset. I know it is foolish.
Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going). I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.
I'm with you. I can't deny KK's point that his FT rate is terrible. I think there is also some merit in his TO rate/Assist rate compared to the other bigs as well. I'm sure part of oscar's attraction to Nino is his ability to pass/cut/screen in the motion offense.
I have to say I'm a bit surprised that Nino and Shane our the best 2 defensive rebounders we have, when you look at Def Reb%. Statistical anomaly? Not sure.
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I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.
LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!
We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.
Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.
To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.
Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.
As JO goes so will our conference season.
That there is an argument over whether Gip, Nino, Diaz, or DJamer should be getting more minutes/starts at the 4/5 is a sad commentary on the team. None should be getting solid minutes much less starting. Gip is a fine match up/back up guy. The others need to be Franked.
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couple more things:
1. re: our earlier discussion about the relative importance of these minutes _FAN KSU Bench Minutes: 39.8% (national rank 24)
2. Our defensive rebounding has not been good and we don't have any good defensive rebounders. Also, I think it is still quite a bit of statistical noise.
But a quick look at 20%+ DR%'rs in the Big 12:
OSU: Jurick 22%, Cobbins 21%
WVU: Murray 22%, Rutledge 21%
TCU: McKinney 24%, Abron 22%
OU: Neal 23%, Osby 20%
KU: Young 23%, Withey 20%
ISU: Ejim 26%
UT: Holmes 20%
Tech: Crockett 25%, Tapsoba 24%
Baylor: Austin 21%, Prince 21%, Jefferson 20%
KSU:
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Not to deviate from the official narrative about oscar sucking when it comes to managing big men, this is usually the time of year when Frank is running a McDonald's AA off the team or suspending JO indefinitely from the team.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7481405/kansas-state-wildcats-suspend-jordan-henriquez-indefinitely (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7481405/kansas-state-wildcats-suspend-jordan-henriquez-indefinitely)
:dunno:
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I don't think we should be completely surprised with a new coach having strange roster rotations. Heck, Frank had strange roster rotations every year.
Shane and Nino both being over 19% in DR% given both play decent minutes should say they are decent defensive rebounders, especially given their size. Granted, its still a small sample size, but that could at least in small part explain their usage. I agree that DJamer has rebounded well also.
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I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.
LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!
We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.
Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.
To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.
Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.
As JO goes so will our conference season.
That there is an argument over whether Gip, Nino, Diaz, or DJamer should be getting more minutes/starts at the 4/5 is a sad commentary on the team. None should be getting solid minutes much less starting. Gip is a fine match up/back up guy. The others need to be Franked.
Well I mean if we take that tact, then I'm much more worried about guard next year than post. For this year, I am not sure you are entirely right. Gip is a Big 12 quality post getting as many minutes as he does for us for every team not KU/Baylor/OU
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I don't think we should be completely surprised with a new coach having strange roster rotations. Heck, Frank had strange roster rotations every year.
Shane and Nino both being over 19% in DR% given both play decent minutes should say they are decent defensive rebounders, especially given their size. Granted, its still a small sample size, but that could at least in small part explain their usage. I agree that DJamer has rebounded well also.
Point: it is bizarre that we are the only team without a single player over the 20% DR% mark.
Counter point: we do have 2 guys at 19 and one at 18.
Point: Our rebounding has been crappy all year.
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Crappy reb and crappy shooting.
Ugh. :ohno:
This year may kill me.
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Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now. Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset. I know it is foolish.
Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going). I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.
What is this rough style stuff all about? Seems code for unskilled and plays like football players at the rec. Jamar was very skilled.
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breakdown of a great game for Jo
1- successful post move 2pts
2- stickbacks after somebody else drives and misses 4pts
1- open 12 footer 2pts
2-4 at the line 2pts
1 dob lob from penetrating Angel 2pts
8 rebounds
2 blocks
25 minutes
Him having games like this would be a product of Angel driving to the basket alot, If oscar doesn't turn Art loose JO really can't be his DOB best.
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Not to deviate from the official narrative about oscar sucking when it comes to managing big men, this is usually the time of year when Frank is running a McDonald's AA off the team or suspending JO indefinitely from the team.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7481405/kansas-state-wildcats-suspend-jordan-henriquez-indefinitely (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7481405/kansas-state-wildcats-suspend-jordan-henriquez-indefinitely)
:dunno:
What is your point? You agree with how the bigs minutes have been handled? What does this have to do with Frank Martin suspending JO last season? How did JO play after that suspension? I don't remember how he finished the season.
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Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now. Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset. I know it is foolish.
Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going). I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.
What is this rough style stuff all about? Seems code for unskilled and plays like football players at the rec. Jamar was very skilled.
Fully agree on skill level. Jamar played strong and roughed others up during his physical play. nino goes pretty strong as well but is obvs not as skilled as jamar. My point though is that he is successful in getting boards and does so in a strong aggressive manner. He needs to put that together with put backs and draw fouls. I am not even too worried about him making said put backs as Jamar struggled like hell with that as well. Just get the foul, frustrate the defender for getting the foul, then do his best to knock a couple FT's down. That was Jamar's game.
Nino is young. I just hope he figures that out.
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I don't think we should be completely surprised with a new coach having strange roster rotations. Heck, Frank had strange roster rotations every year.
Shane and Nino both being over 19% in DR% given both play decent minutes should say they are decent defensive rebounders, especially given their size. Granted, its still a small sample size, but that could at least in small part explain their usage. I agree that DJamer has rebounded well also.
Point: it is bizarre that we are the only team without a single player over the 20% DR% mark.
Counter point: we do have 2 guys at 19 and one at 18.
Point: Our rebounding has been crappy all year.
Defensive rebouding is below average. Offensive rebounding is great.
But (by far) the biggest weakness on this team is shooting/scoring. Defensive boarding would definitely be 2nd though.
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I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.
LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!
We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.
Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.
To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.
Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.
As JO goes so will our conference season.
That there is an argument over whether Gip, Nino, Diaz, or DJamer should be getting more minutes/starts at the 4/5 is a sad commentary on the team. None should be getting solid minutes much less starting. Gip is a fine match up/back up guy. The others need to be Franked.
Well I mean if we take that tact, then I'm much more worried about guard next year than post. For this year, I am not sure you are entirely right. Gip is a Big 12 quality post getting as many minutes as he does for us for every team not KU/Baylor/OU
I am terrified of guard and post next year. Not sure one looks worse than the other.
The difference between how we could use Gip last year and this year is we could share his minutes with JamSam, a completely different, better player. This year he is sharing with his clone. Add his minutes and DJamer's together and you get his total minutes. Too many to be competitive in the Big XII.
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Anything other then Shane and Nino exclusively splitting time at the 4 is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We have to play small and spread the court we are not skilled enough to score efficiently enough to win in a motion offense otherwise. Gip plays more than JO because he know what the eff he is doing and sets decent screens. JO can get lost on offense and has never truly been decent at setting screens.
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Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now. Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset. I know it is foolish.
Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going). I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.
What is this rough style stuff all about? Seems code for unskilled and plays like football players at the rec. Jamar was very skilled.
Fully agree on skill level. Jamar played strong and roughed others up during his physical play. nino goes pretty strong as well but is obvs not as skilled as jamar. My point though is that he is successful in getting boards and does so in a strong aggressive manner. He needs to put that together with put backs and draw fouls. I am not even too worried about him making said put backs as Jamar struggled like hell with that as well. Just get the foul, frustrate the defender for getting the foul, then do his best to knock a couple FT's down. That was Jamar's game.
Nino is young. I just hope he figures that out.
Its his third year as a college basketball player. Also another dagger in the jamar comparo/hope. Nino has the worst OR% of all the scholarship bigs, all of them including Diaz and he has the 2nd worst eFG and true shooting percentage on the entire team. Jamar was great in these metrics. Really its stunning how inefficient he is when you look at the advanced metrics.
http://kstateupdate.com/kansas-state-basketball/stats
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Anything other then Shane and Nino exclusively splitting time at the 4 is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We have to play small and spread the court we are not skilled enough to score efficiently enough to win in a motion offense otherwise. Gip plays more than JO because he know what the eff he is doing and sets decent screens. JO can get lost on offense and has never truly been decent at setting screens.
No one is complaining about Gip getting more minutes than JO, Gip has been great. Nino doesn't deserve time at the 4 or anywhere else. Its odd that you think he should split time with Shane, they don't give you the same thing. If you insist at playing Nino at the 4 I have no idea why you wouldn't just play big, Nino is no more of a scoring threat at the 4 than any other big. I think JO should play the four it allows him to face up a lot more and you can still have Gip or DJamer playing in the low post.
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Anything other then Shane and Nino exclusively splitting time at the 4 is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We have to play small and spread the court we are not skilled enough to score efficiently enough to win in a motion offense otherwise. Gip plays more than JO because he know what the eff he is doing and sets decent screens. JO can get lost on offense and has never truly been decent at setting screens.
No one is complaining about Gip getting more minutes than JO, Gip has been great. Nino doesn't deserve time at the 4 or anywhere else. Its odd that you think he should split time with Shane, they don't give you the same thing. If you insist at playing Nino at the 4 I have no idea why you wouldn't just play big, Nino is no more of a scoring threat at the 4 than any other big. I think JO should play the four it allows him to face up a lot more and you can still have Gip or DJamer playing in the low post.
Believe Shane is the best 4, Gip and Jo both shouldn't play much over 25 mis a game because their endurance. The argument comes down to Diaz, DJamer and Niño. None of them are good but I believe Niño brings energy to the game this team needs.
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Anything other then Shane and Nino exclusively splitting time at the 4 is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We have to play small and spread the court we are not skilled enough to score efficiently enough to win in a motion offense otherwise. Gip plays more than JO because he know what the eff he is doing and sets decent screens. JO can get lost on offense and has never truly been decent at setting screens.
No one is complaining about Gip getting more minutes than JO, Gip has been great. Nino doesn't deserve time at the 4 or anywhere else. Its odd that you think he should split time with Shane, they don't give you the same thing. If you insist at playing Nino at the 4 I have no idea why you wouldn't just play big, Nino is no more of a scoring threat at the 4 than any other big. I think JO should play the four it allows him to face up a lot more and you can still have Gip or DJamer playing in the low post.
Believe Shane is the best 4, Gip and Jo both shouldn't play much over 25 mis a game because their endurance. The argument comes down to Diaz, DJamer and Niño. None of them are good but I believe Niño brings energy to the game this team needs.
Combined?
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Each
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Each
Well Gip is playing around 20 minutes a game and JO is playing 13 so I think we should be ok.
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All (one) of the arguments for Nino pretty much call for him to get about 12mpg. High energy, do nothing else but play hard guy should be providing spark off of the bench; you know like Energy did.
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I really think that if we are going to be successful against good, athletic teams, we are best served by having JO play as much as possible, which is probably 25 minutes for him. Having a defensive presence at the rim is really important, and I believe that it helps to have someone who is taller than 6'6" playing at all times, but that's just me.
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We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.
Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.
To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.
Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.
In our first 2 Big 12 games Nino and Shane take turns making me look dumb.
But to the thread, this was a really good discussion; interesting to see if anyone has adjusted their opinion. I suppose this is also partially where my comment the other day about oscar and small ball came from; it will be interesting to see how these line-ups and rotations evolve for oscar through Big 12 play.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
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Yeah, JO's biggest barrier is JO the last three games, in that he has to get a hold of the fouling. That aside, he is fantastic.
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Yeah Shane and Nino have risen to the occasion, but I still think JO needs more minutes (also, foul trouble). I think JO/Gip not being on the court at the same time is probably a bad idea since DJamer has disappeared (would still like to see him get some minutes just to see, but so far MIR wins this decisively) as Nino/Shane should be 4s and never 5s. So if I had to choose between small and tiny ball, I'm going Small and loving Shane/Nino at the 4. So far so good there. So wrong I was.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.
Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.
Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.
If JO doesn't start, should we have Shane try to get the jump ball at the start of the game instead of Gip? Should we just defer to the second half automatically? I haven't seen this discussed much around here and I think it bears discussion.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.
Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.
I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench. Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not. I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact. I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself. I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.
Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game. Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.
Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.
I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench. Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not. I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact. I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself. I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.
Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game. Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.
The athletic dept needs to hire a good sport psychologist and get this figured out.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.
Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.
I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench. Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not. I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact. I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself. I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.
Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game. Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.
The athletic dept needs to hire a good sport psychologist and get this figured out.
They just fired the bitb.
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I would start JO or Gip based on who they are matching up against. I think last year against KU, Gip was much more effective against Withey has his big body wouldn't let Withey get in position whereas JO was getting pushed around. Gip should start that game
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.
Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.
I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench. Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not. I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact. I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself. I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.
Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game. Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.
The athletic dept needs to hire a good sport psychologist and get this figured out.
They just fired the bitb.
:chainsaw:
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I'd want more of JO if he could give us what he's capable of. Basically, he needs to stop being a moron and committing stupid fouls. More smart play = more minutes. More minutes for JO is a good thing for this team.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.
Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.
I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench. Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not. I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact. I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself. I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.
Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game. Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.
That's a really good point.
However, during the last game against West Virginia, I think he was more of a victim of some nickel and dime fouls. IIRC, he wasn't being overly agressive when called for the fouls but was just a victim of officiating.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.
Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.
I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench. Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not. I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact. I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself. I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.
Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game. Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.
That's a really good point.
However, during the last game against West Virginia, I think he was more of a victim of some nickel and dime fouls. IIRC, he wasn't being overly agressive when called for the fouls but was just a victim of officiating.
IMO JO has to adjust the way he plays defense. Its clear what other teams are doing against him; when you attack JO make sure you get into his body as you shoot (not after) and he will bump you and draw the foul. I'd guess over half of his fouls are clean blocks, but he is getting body contact as he blocks the shot and a foul call as the shot happens. There are plenty of times where there is contact, but after the block has happened. Officials give big guys the benefit of the doubt in that case, but when contact happens with the body as the block takes place they call fouls on the defender the majority of the time. Go back and watch and you'll see that this is by far JO's biggest issues this year with fouls and getting himself into foul trouble.
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IMO JO has to adjust the way he plays defense. Its clear what other teams are doing against him; when you attack JO make sure you get into his body as you shoot (not after) and he will bump you and draw the foul. I'd guess over half of his fouls are clean blocks, but he is getting body contact as he blocks the shot and a foul call as the shot happens.
Admittedly, I haven't gone back and watched film, but my observation is that he's fouling with his arms much moreso than with his body. His trouble begins by being out of position. He's either too slow rotating to the ball, or he simply guards his man too far from the basket. In either case, he leaves the basket unprotected far too often. He then tries to compensate for his poor position by using his wingspan to reach out (not up) to block shots. But, more often than not, a big man reaching across the body to block a shot will be called for a foul.
I see a lot of this out of JO.
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I'd agree with that too.
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Do you think JO starts against KU to matchup with Withey?
Watching the Baylor game last night it looked like Baylor defended him well with Rico Gathers, a 6'8 260 Freshman. Withey seemed to have trouble getting a decent shot off against him because of his bulk which gives me hope that Gip might be able to matchup with him.
I could see Gip having problems though as he is probably 1-2 inches shorter than Gathers.
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I would start JO or Gip based on who they are matching up against. I think last year against KU, Gip was much more effective against Withey has his big body wouldn't let Withey get in position whereas JO was getting pushed around. Gip should start that game
this is the best descriptor of what will happen. match ups have, and will continue to, decide our line ups. and that's the way it should be.
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Soren Petro's soul judgment of KSU basketball is the number of minutes he sees in the box score for JO.
I catch myself doing the same thing.
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What lineup gets Withey pushed out farthest from the rim? That's the one we want next Tuesday.
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What lineup gets Withey pushed out farthest from the rim? That's the one we want next Tuesday.
what if gip, JO, and DJamer locked hands and formed a large circle under and outward from the basket. just don't let withey break into the ring and he cant get close to the basket, problem solved.
sometimes it just takes a bit of creative thought, but im sure oscar has already thought of this so don't worry i'm sure he will use it against ku.
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who will guard Maric?
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who will guard Maric?
Billy Walker.
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I mentioned it after the Fla game, but i really like us going with Shane and Nino at the 4 spot. At the same time, i do think we need to get the bigs more than the 40 minutes from the bigs (Gip and JO)
When Rod was getting his breaks, he was playing Omari. I would rather see him play Shane at the 3 and go with 2 bigs when we give Rod a breather.
These minutes would work for me =
Rod 36
Will 33
Angel 28
Shane 24
Gip 23
Tay 19
JO 21
Nino 16
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Why so few for Angel? Assuming foul trouble?
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somebody formulate a rotation for me that reduces Will's minutes below 25per.
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somebody formulate a rotation for me that reduces Will's minutes below 25per.
Rod 36
Angel 33
Will 23
Shane 24
JO 24
Tay 24
Gip 20
Nino 16
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somebody formulate a rotation for me that reduces Will's minutes below 25 15per.
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somebody formulate a rotation for me that reduces Will's minutes below 25per.
Rod 36
Angel 33
Will 23
Shane 24
JO 24
Tay 24
Gip 20
Nino 16
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Is everyone okay with Tay playing 20+ minutes? I sure am. Just wanted to make sure.
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The only argument for Will over Irving is his 52/18 A/TO ratio. Irving comes in at 32/12.
Btw, speaking of A/TO ratios, I'd like a stat geek to explain to me why our two best big men, Gip and JO have a combined A/TO ratio of 5/38? I mean, that's rough ridin' abysmal, no? I get that bigs don't assist, but why are they turning it over so much?
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Is everyone okay with Tay playing 20+ minutes? I sure am. Just wanted to make sure.
Fine by me!
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Do you think JO starts against KU to matchup with Withey?
Watching the Baylor game last night it looked like Baylor defended him well with Rico Gathers, a 6'8 260 Freshman. Withey seemed to have trouble getting a decent shot off against him because of his bulk which gives me hope that Gip might be able to matchup with him.
I could see Gip having problems though as he is probably 1-2 inches shorter than Gathers.
I think what you'll see is JO getting most of the time on Withey for sure. And I think that's a matchup that JO can definitely do well in, if he stays out of foul trouble.
Gipson can try out muscling and push Withey off of the block, but Withey struggles more with length than getting muscled. If a combo of JO and Diaz (?) can use their height to stay in front of Withey and make him shoot over the top then I think we can have success in that matchup.
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The only argument for Will over Irving is his 52/18 A/TO ratio. Irving comes in at 32/12.
Btw, speaking of A/TO ratios, I'd like a stat geek to explain to me why our two best big men, Gip and JO have a combined A/TO ratio of 5/38? I mean, that's rough ridin' abysmal, no? I get that bigs don't assist, but why are they turning it over so much?
LBBIQ here, but I would say it is because they never pass and there is a lot of traffic when they get the ball down low. That and they have stone-hands.
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the book on ku is to double Withey off of Kevin Young.
What I would like to see is a box and 2 with runners on mcclemore and ej/tharpe.
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the book on ku is to double Withey off of Kevin Young.
What I would like to see is a box and 2 with runners on mcclemore and ej/tharpe.
not to be a dick, cause I know what you mean (triangle and 2), but we would kick KUs ass if they let us run a box and 2.
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Rod 35
Angel 30
Will 27
Shane 26
Gip 23
JO 23
Tay 22
Nino 14
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the book on ku is to double Withey off of Kevin Young.
What I would like to see is a box and 2 with runners on mcclemore and ej/tharpe.
not to be a dick, cause I know what you mean (triangle and 2), but we would kick KUs ass if they let us run a box and 2.
yeah started with box and 1 and switched. then i think you got confused?
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the book on ku is to double Withey off of Kevin Young.
What I would like to see is a box and 2 with runners on mcclemore and ej/tharpe.
not to be a dick, cause I know what you mean (triangle and 2), but we would kick KUs ass if they let us run a box and 2.
yeah started with box and 1 and switched. then i think you got confused?
Just saying I think we'd win if we had 6 players to their 5 :dunno:
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I think Gip's playing time over JO has a lot more to do with opening up the rest of our offense. It is clear oscar wants to have a 4 that has some outside range, therefore the lack of playing 2 bigs at one time for the most part. And with Nino/Shane at the 4, we spread inside outside more. Gip also passes out of the post, JO doesn't.
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Yeah i probably had Will for too many minutes. Probably should have Angel at 31 and Will at 30. I just dont see oscar taking Will's minutes to 25 or under.
We need more out of both Angel and Will. Cant have 3 pts in 2 games from Will and Angel needs to step his game up. He is the 2nd best playe on this team but too many silly mistakes here lately and he has only made 9 of his last 36 3pt shots. FWIW... he had 9 3pt makes in the 1st 3 games this year and only has 9 since.
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I still want more JO, and JO starting. Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO
I'd want more of JO if he could give us what he's capable of. Basically, he needs to stop being a moron and committing stupid fouls. More smart play = more minutes. More minutes for JO is a good thing for this team.
I do not agree with your assessment of "stupid fouls." JO is an aggressive shot blocker and a rebounder. We need JO aggressive, if he isn't aggressive he's no good to us. Because JO needs to be aggressive and because he's a good but not great shot blocker he picks up these fouls. He relies on height to block shots instead of timing and footwork and because of this its, as _FAN has pointed out, its much easier for people to get into his body. I was watching Withey earlier this year and, I'm pretty sure it was Doherty, talked about that his volleyball background helps him to keep balls in play because they don't "hit the ball hard." Obviously stupid. His volleyball background helps his footwork and his timing, it's what makes him a great shot blocker. Anyway back to JO, for him to be what we need him to be he's going to get over-the-backs and slapping dudes arms, etc. A stupid foul for him is anything that happens outside of the paint.
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IMO JO has to adjust the way he plays defense. Its clear what other teams are doing against him; when you attack JO make sure you get into his body as you shoot (not after) and he will bump you and draw the foul. I'd guess over half of his fouls are clean blocks, but he is getting body contact as he blocks the shot and a foul call as the shot happens.
Admittedly, I haven't gone back and watched film, but my observation is that he's fouling with his arms much moreso than with his body. His trouble begins by being out of position. He's either too slow rotating to the ball, or he simply guards his man too far from the basket. In either case, he leaves the basket unprotected far too often. He then tries to compensate for his poor position by using his wingspan to reach out (not up) to block shots. But, more often than not, a big man reaching across the body to block a shot will be called for a foul.
I see a lot of this out of JO.
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Great post Belvis, but those aren't dumb fouls, they are fouls that a shot blocker is going to make. I'd bet two of those weren't called.
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JO vs Gip, Shane vs Nino and Will vs Tay playing time should be based on who playing the best in the game they are currently in.
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What lineup gets Withey pushed out farthest from the rim? That's the one we want next Tuesday.
This isn't really all that important for us, our guards don't score from the paint at all.
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The only argument for Will over Irving is his 52/18 A/TO ratio. Irving comes in at 32/12.
Btw, speaking of A/TO ratios, I'd like a stat geek to explain to me why our two best big men, Gip and JO have a combined A/TO ratio of 5/38? I mean, that's rough ridin' abysmal, no? I get that bigs don't assist, but why are they turning it over so much?
Thats not a lot turnovers for those guys, thats about 1.1 TO a game for each of them. The assist number is alarmingly low, but we both know they are both black holes and poor post passers.
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I'm tempted to say Straw should get more than the 25-27 that _FAN wants to give him, but admittedly that would be pretty reactionary.
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I'm tempted to say Straw should get more than the 25-27 that _FAN wants to give him, but admittedly that would be pretty reactionary.
I was too, I actually was leaning toward 30, then cut back a few. I'm starting to buy in on Shane more and more though.
Yeah i probably had Will for too many minutes. Probably should have Angel at 31 and Will at 30. I just dont see oscar taking Will's minutes to 25 or under.
We need more out of both Angel and Will. Cant have 3 pts in 2 games from Will and Angel needs to step his game up. He is the 2nd best playe on this team but too many silly mistakes here lately and he has only made 9 of his last 36 3pt shots. FWIW... he had 9 3pt makes in the 1st 3 games this year and only has 9 since.
Yeah, I cut back on Will too, but he's going to play 30+ more often than not the rest of the year. And we do need more consistency out of both; Angel staying on the floor and Will being a scoring threat/making shots. I do hope oscar is willing to give Tay more minutes if Will continues to shoot as bad as he is right now.
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Because JO needs to be aggressive and because he's a good but not great shot blocker he picks up these fouls. He relies on height to block shots instead of timing and footwork and because of this its, as _FAN has pointed out, its much easier for people to get into his body.
Right, JO picks up fouls because of his lackluster timing and footwork. That's my point. I'm sure he fouls with his body as much as he does his arms, but the point remains that poor footwork and timing will get any big man in trouble.
JO's aggression should be an attribute, ideally. But, in reality, it appears that his aggression too often results in silly fouls. Get to your spot, hold it, stay straight up. JO and Withey are maybe the only 2 legitimate 7'ers in the League. Use that height and wingspan and protect the rim. stop reaching. JO could be a great shot blocker in this league. After his growth the past 2 seasons, I expected him to be great.
I don't think it's a coincidence that SO Gip has taken SR JO's minutes, playing 20mpg and 14 mpg, respectively. No reason a shot blocker like JO should have regressed back to the minutes he was playing as a SO. My take? He's playing undisciplined defense, reducing his minutes. B/c of his reduced minutes, he tries forcing shots in the offensive. It's a snowball effect.
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Because JO needs to be aggressive and because he's a good but not great shot blocker he picks up these fouls. He relies on height to block shots instead of timing and footwork and because of this its, as _FAN has pointed out, its much easier for people to get into his body.
Right, JO picks up fouls because of his lackluster timing and footwork. That's my point. I'm sure he fouls with his body as much as he does his arms, but the point remains that poor footwork and timing will get any big man in trouble.
JO's aggression should be an attribute, ideally. But, in reality, it appears that his aggression too often results in silly fouls. Get to your spot, hold it, stay straight up. JO and Withey are maybe the only 2 legitimate 7'ers in the League. Use that height and wingspan and protect the rim. stop reaching. JO could be a great shot blocker in this league. After his growth the past 2 seasons, I expected him to be great.
I don't think it's a coincidence that SO Gip has taken SR JO's minutes, playing 20mpg and 14 mpg, respectively. No reason a shot blocker like JO should have regressed back to the minutes he was playing as a SO. My take? He's playing undisciplined defense, reducing his minutes. B/c of his reduced minutes, he tries forcing shots in the offensive. It's a snowball effect.
The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things.
JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards. When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.
Isaiah Austin is a legit 7 footer also.
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The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things.
JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards. When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.
So, apparently this coach values a system where no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket? Also, Gip and JO have 25 TOs and 10 TOs, respectively. So, this coach also seems to value more TOs from his big men.
Sarcasm aside, maybe they like Gip's offense more? He's shown some improvement, especially with that little baby hook. I dunno. I still think JO could be playing +10mpg if he were a bit smarter defensively and wasn't forcing shots.
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In discussing the difference in this year's JO to last year's JO, I would say that the subtraction of Jamar being able to help on D is worth looking at. We play smaller now and makes JO have to be more active to challenge a shot as a big where before, we played with another big more often than not. Small ball side effect?
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The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things.
JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards. When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.
So, apparently this coach values a system where no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket? Also, Gip and JO have 25 TOs and 10 TOs, respectively. So, this coach also seems to value more TOs from his big men.
Sarcasm aside, maybe they like Gip's offense more? He's shown some improvement, especially with that little baby hook. I dunno. I still think JO could be playing +10mpg if he were a bit smarter defensively and wasn't forcing shots.
I really think he values Gip having more traditional post skills on offense over JO's face-up game.
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The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things.
JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards. When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.
So, apparently this coach values a system where no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket? Also, Gip and JO have 25 TOs and 10 TOs, respectively. So, this coach also seems to value more TOs from his big men.
Sarcasm aside, maybe they like Gip's offense more? He's shown some improvement, especially with that little baby hook. I dunno. I still think JO could be playing +10mpg if he were a bit smarter defensively and wasn't forcing shots.
I really think he values Gip having more traditional post skills on offense over JO's face-up game.
There is no reason we shouldn't be able to work both into the offense.
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The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things.
JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards. When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.
So, apparently this coach values a system where no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket? Also, Gip and JO have 25 TOs and 10 TOs, respectively. So, this coach also seems to value more TOs from his big men.
Sarcasm aside, maybe they like Gip's offense more? He's shown some improvement, especially with that little baby hook. I dunno. I still think JO could be playing +10mpg if he were a bit smarter defensively and wasn't forcing shots.
I really think he values Gip having more traditional post skills on offense over JO's face-up game.
i think it's really pretty simple, like most coaches, i think he values players who play well. JO hasn't been playing that well on either end of the floor.
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In discussing the difference in this year's JO to last year's JO, I would say that the subtraction of Jamar being able to help on D is worth looking at. We play smaller now and makes JO have to be more active to challenge a shot as a big where before, we played with another big more often than not. Small ball side effect?
Good observation and I'd guess that's a part of JO's issues.
There is no reason we shouldn't be able to work both into the offense.
I think we do. Its not like one is used a lot less than the other given their minutes. %Poss and %Shots show this well*.
Gip's %Poss is 23.6% and %Shots is 18.7%. JO is 21.4% and 19.7% respectively. That seems about right for those guys.
*Percentage of possessions used (%Poss): A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.
Percentage of shots taken (%Shots): This is the percentage of a team’s shots taken, while the player is on the court. This is a pretty good proxy for %Poss, and significantly easier to calculate. It is PlayerFGA / (%Min * TeamFGA).
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In discussing the difference in this year's JO to last year's JO, I would say that the subtraction of Jamar being able to help on D is worth looking at. We play smaller now and makes JO have to be more active to challenge a shot as a big where before, we played with another big more often than not. Small ball side effect?
Good observation and I'd guess that's a part of JO's issues.
There is no reason we shouldn't be able to work both into the offense.
I think we do. Its not like one is used a lot less than the other given their minutes. %Poss and %Shots show this well*.
Gip's %Poss is 23.6% and %Shots is 18.7%. JO is 21.4% and 19.7% respectively. That seems about right for those guys.
*Percentage of possessions used (%Poss): A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.
Percentage of shots taken (%Shots): This is the percentage of a team’s shots taken, while the player is on the court. This is a pretty good proxy for %Poss, and significantly easier to calculate. It is PlayerFGA / (%Min * TeamFGA).
I meant that JO wanting to play as a face up as well as gip being more of a traditional big. I was meaning that the two styles should be used in this system, rather than the two players. I think that not only should they get the minutes, but that they should do so while maximizing the situations that each thrive in.
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Again, I haven't seen that one or the other isn't allowed to use their skill set well in oscar's motion.
Also, the numbers show their games are much more similar than different.
Gip gets 36% of his shots at the rim and 64% of his shots on 2PT jumpers. JO gets 40% of his shots at the rim and 60% of his shots on 2PT jumpers. I'm kind of surprised by that actually, I'm not sure how that is tabulated, but it would indicate that Gip plays face up more than JO. FWIW, their numbers last year were 49% at rim/51% 2PT jump shots for Gip and 58% at rim/42% 2PT jump shots for JO.
The weird number to me is that on JO's 2PT jump shots only 33% are assisted (69% are assisted at the rim). Gip's 2PT jump shots are assisted 75% of the time (61% assisted at the rim).
Observation shows it, but Gip creates more of his own shots at the rim and on his 2PT jumpers he's mainly a catch and shoot guy, so that's not a surprise. But I was a bit surprised that it seems a lot of the time JO is creating his own 2PT jump shot.
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jhr seldom catches and shoots. he catches, recatches, surveys, and, if not guarded, shoots. he's not creating his own shot, his shot is always there. he's just deciding whether or not to shoot it.
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Again, I haven't seen that one or the other isn't allowed to use their skill set well in oscar's motion.
Also, the numbers show their games are much more similar than different.
Gip gets 36% of his shots at the rim and 64% of his shots on 2PT jumpers. JO gets 40% of his shots at the rim and 60% of his shots on 2PT jumpers. I'm kind of surprised by that actually, I'm not sure how that is tabulated, but it would indicate that Gip plays face up more than JO. FWIW, their numbers last year were 49% at rim/51% 2PT jump shots for Gip and 58% at rim/42% 2PT jump shots for JO.
Which stat does Gip's hook fall into?
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Again, I haven't seen that one or the other isn't allowed to use their skill set well in oscar's motion.
Also, the numbers show their games are much more similar than different.
Gip gets 36% of his shots at the rim and 64% of his shots on 2PT jumpers. JO gets 40% of his shots at the rim and 60% of his shots on 2PT jumpers. I'm kind of surprised by that actually, I'm not sure how that is tabulated, but it would indicate that Gip plays face up more than JO. FWIW, their numbers last year were 49% at rim/51% 2PT jump shots for Gip and 58% at rim/42% 2PT jump shots for JO.
Which stat does Gip's hook fall into?
Good question. I'm guessing that may be a 2PT jumper in this system based on the following explanation.
The website is http://www.hoop-math.com/KANSAS%20STATE2013.html BTW,
%Shots at Rim described the percentage of a player's field goal attempts that are either classified as layups, dunks, or tip-ins in the play-by-play data.
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Given that, a good back-to-the-basket guy's stats could make him look more like a face up guy if he has a really good hook he uses a lot.
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BTW, the guy that does the hoop-math website is Jeff Haley and he has some really good stuff out there regarding stats for those of you that are ridiculous stat guys like me.
Here are a few from last year.
http://www.teamrankings.com/blog/ncaa-basketball/coaches-love-assists-and-turnovers-stat-geek-idol
http://www.teamrankings.com/blog/ncaa-basketball/coaches-love-blocks-how-statistics-determine-player-minutes-stat-geek-idol
http://www.teamrankings.com/blog/ncaa-basketball/hurry-up-offense-how-pushing-the-pace-affects-shooting-and-rebounding-rates-stat-geek-idol
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LBBIQ, but is the difference in JO's defensive effectiveness due to the different defensive system?
It seemed like last year with the defenders fighting through screens, the defense was designed to funnel guards down towards JO who was always near the lane to clean up.
This year is seems like JO is usually farther out of the lane, so when Will gets beat, it's too late for JO to react effectively. He doesn't have time to get into a good position to block so he winds up slapping or coming across the offensive player and winds up commiting the foul. Or is it that he's lazy about help defense, and not reacting in time?
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when are we going to see some JO pick-n-pop 3 bombs? hopefully sooner rather than later. He has a skill both of his coaches completely ignore for some stupid reason.
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LBBIQ, but is the difference in JO's defensive effectiveness due to the different defensive system?
It seemed like last year with the defenders fighting through screens, the defense was designed to funnel guards down towards JO who was always near the lane to clean up.
This year is seems like JO is usually farther out of the lane, so when Will gets beat, it's too late for JO to react effectively. He doesn't have time to get into a good position to block so he winds up slapping or coming across the offensive player and winds up commiting the foul. Or is it that he's lazy about help defense, and not reacting in time?
Maybe it's the system. who knows. But, the defense has been pretty darn good from everybody else. So, whether JO is slow to learn the new system or just plain slow with his footwork, my conclusion is that he needs to pick it up.
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JO's block% is actually the highest it's been in his career, 14.5%. It's just that he's fouling more like he did as a SO than as a JR.
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Because JO needs to be aggressive and because he's a good but not great shot blocker he picks up these fouls. He relies on height to block shots instead of timing and footwork and because of this its, as _FAN has pointed out, its much easier for people to get into his body.
Right, JO picks up fouls because of his lackluster timing and footwork. That's my point. I'm sure he fouls with his body as much as he does his arms, but the point remains that poor footwork and timing will get any big man in trouble.
JO's aggression should be an attribute, ideally. But, in reality, it appears that his aggression too often results in silly fouls. Get to your spot, hold it, stay straight up. JO and Withey are maybe the only 2 legitimate 7'ers in the League. Use that height and wingspan and protect the rim. stop reaching. JO could be a great shot blocker in this league. After his growth the past 2 seasons, I expected him to be great.
I don't think it's a coincidence that SO Gip has taken SR JO's minutes, playing 20mpg and 14 mpg, respectively. No reason a shot blocker like JO should have regressed back to the minutes he was playing as a SO. My take? He's playing undisciplined defense, reducing his minutes. B/c of his reduced minutes, he tries forcing shots in the offensive. It's a snowball effect.
Don't put words into my mouth I didn't say anything about lackluster, I thought I made it clear that this is an issue of skill and not effort. Also the stand there with your arms up point is poor. I'm 6'3" and I guarantee I can get my shot off on a 7 footer just standing there with his arms up. That's something taught in middle school and low level high school.
As for his minutes I'll repeat what I said to Wabash last week or so. Before I get into that it is factually inaccurate to say Gip is getting JOs minutes. First of all there is one less big in the rotation so there are more minutes for everyone. Also at this point last season Gip was then getting more minutes than JO, it was only after Gip wore down and JO played well after his suspension that he started to get big minutes. This Gip/JO minute talking point is revisionist.
Back to the point. Gip is the featured big because he is our best back to the basket big. JO is not and will not be a good back to the basket player, just like Gip wasn't as effective in the pinch post because he can't face up. Even bad defensive JO is better than good defensive Gip, because of his height and lack of vertical he is stand with arms up guy and he can't stop anyone from getting a shot. All this is not to say that if JO can't get minutes by playing better, he needs to be better. But to chalk up JOs and Gip's minutes to JO being lazy and dumb is well lazy and dumb.
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Why is Frank okay with playing Diaz and Gipson together or JO and Diaz together, but never JO and Gipson together? There is no way that Diaz is a better 4 than JO is. JO seems far more comfortable facing up and seems like that would be a good argument for playing him at the 4 sometimes. I really think we could get away with a rotation of mostly JO / Gipson / Southwell at the 4/5 slots with Nino picking up a few minutes here and there.
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Why is Frank okay with playing Diaz and Gipson together or JO and Diaz together, but never JO and Gipson together? There is no way that Diaz is a better 4 than JO is. JO seems far more comfortable facing up and seems like that would be a good argument for playing him at the 4 sometimes. I really think we could get away with a rotation of mostly JO / Gipson / Southwell at the 4/5 slots with Nino picking up a few minutes here and there.
Fair question on JO and Gip playing together, but it seems to me what you said there is pretty much what we do. Or am I reading that wrong?
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Why is Frank okay with playing Diaz and Gipson together or JO and Diaz together, but never JO and Gipson together? There is no way that Diaz is a better 4 than JO is. JO seems far more comfortable facing up and seems like that would be a good argument for playing him at the 4 sometimes. I really think we could get away with a rotation of mostly JO / Gipson / Southwell at the 4/5 slots with Nino picking up a few minutes here and there.
well JO is the first off so he's going to sub for Gip also their replacing each other usually has to do with one or both of them in foul trouble
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Why is Frank okay with playing Diaz and Gipson together or JO and Diaz together, but never JO and Gipson together? There is no way that Diaz is a better 4 than JO is. JO seems far more comfortable facing up and seems like that would be a good argument for playing him at the 4 sometimes. I really think we could get away with a rotation of mostly JO / Gipson / Southwell at the 4/5 slots with Nino picking up a few minutes here and there.
Fair question on JO and Gip playing together, but it seems to me what you said there is pretty much what we do. Or am I reading that wrong?
It is pretty much what we do, except that it is always Gip + Shane / JO + Shane / Gip + Nino / JO + Nino / JO + Diaz / Gip + Diaz. It is never Gip + JO, which is maddening to me. I guess I don't understand why oscar plays Gipson and JO exclusively at the 5, while Diaz plays the 4 most of the time since I think Diaz is our 5th best player at the 4.
I'm not sure there is a site that does splits like this, but I would expect that while JO is on the court, our defensive PPP is better than when he is off, which is my main argument in favor of JO.
well JO is the first off so he's going to sub for Gip also their replacing each other usually has to do with one or both of them in foul trouble
Yeah. Maybe we just haven't seen it where neither of them are in foul trouble? I dunno.
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MIR makes a good point, playing them together is nearly impossible because one or the other usually has foul trouble. Those 2 combine for an impressive 10.2 fouls drawn per 40 minutes.
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MIR makes a good point, playing them together is nearly impossible because one or the other usually has foul trouble. Those 2 combine for an impressive 10.2 fouls drawn per 40 minutes.
:lol: that is an impressive number.