oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)

[kso_FAN]

I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.

Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.

nino can't shoot, so let's get that talking point out of there.  I know that isn't your claim but we are about halfway through the year.  He has had plenty of opportunities.  He can't shoot.  DJamer has a higher O-board and D-board % from kenpom, he is also only 1 reb/game short of nino in 3mpg fewer.  He is not as quick/athletic.  I know it isn't a perfect metric but if Nino is supposedly significantly more athletic/plays harder why in 26 fewer minutes does DJamer have: 7 more blocks/2 fewer steals?  I mean the lost offense between the two is significant to me.  DJamer is an o-reb putback guy and doesn't take bad shots, but comprehensively I think he is better.  The one big advantae Nino does seem to have is he seems to know the offense better than the other bigs, but gmafb

Yeah, his shooting percentage shows that he's not some great shooter. But I think his willingness to take that 15 footer the offense generates is something that oscar likes in this offense. DJamer is just going to be an around the basket guy and teams have to respect Nino out to 15. At least in theory.

And coming in at his size I'm not sure how many minutes DJamer can play. We all saw Gip wear down as the season went along last year. Nino is unknown because he's been hurt so much, but it at least it appears he can maintain energy for the minutes he gets, I'm not sold DJamer can do that yet.

[Kat Kid]

I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.

Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.

nino can't shoot, so let's get that talking point out of there.  I know that isn't your claim but we are about halfway through the year.  He has had plenty of opportunities.  He can't shoot.  DJamer has a higher O-board and D-board % from kenpom, he is also only 1 reb/game short of nino in 3mpg fewer.  He is not as quick/athletic.  I know it isn't a perfect metric but if Nino is supposedly significantly more athletic/plays harder why in 26 fewer minutes does DJamer have: 7 more blocks/2 fewer steals?  I mean the lost offense between the two is significant to me.  DJamer is an o-reb putback guy and doesn't take bad shots, but comprehensively I think he is better.  The one big advantae Nino does seem to have is he seems to know the offense better than the other bigs, but gmafb

Yeah, his shooting percentage shows that he's not some great shooter. But I think his willingness to take that 15 footer the offense generates is something that oscar likes in this offense. DJamer is just going to be an around the basket guy and teams have to respect Nino out to 15. At least in theory.

And coming in at his size I'm not sure how many minutes DJamer can play. We all saw Gip wear down as the season went along last year. Nino is unknown because he's been hurt so much, but it at least it appears he can maintain energy for the minutes he gets, I'm not sold DJamer can do that yet.

I guess I wasn't being clear.  I was going to add in my ideal rotation, but I really didn't want to break the 2000 word barrier and really I probably should've cut out the game by game banter and just had the three problems at the end with stats in the body.  My ideal lineup would be:

Gip 20-25
JO  20-25
DJamer  10-15
Nino 10-15
Shane 10-15
Diaz scraps

I would prefer if Nino played slightly less, DJamer slightly more, JO significantly more, Diaz significantly less, Shane about the same at the 4 as he has with Nino injured/Diaz's reduced minutes.

[Trim]

I agree with KK that we should play our best power forward and center the most minutes at power forward and center.

[MakeItRain]

I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.

Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.

nino can't shoot, so let's get that talking point out of there.  I know that isn't your claim but we are about halfway through the year.  He has had plenty of opportunities.  He can't shoot.  DJamer has a higher O-board and D-board % from kenpom, he is also only 1 reb/game short of nino in 3mpg fewer.  He is not as quick/athletic.  I know it isn't a perfect metric but if Nino is supposedly significantly more athletic/plays harder why in 26 fewer minutes does DJamer have: 7 more blocks/2 fewer steals?  I mean the lost offense between the two is significant to me.  DJamer is an o-reb putback guy and doesn't take bad shots, but comprehensively I think he is better.  The one big advantae Nino does seem to have is he seems to know the offense better than the other bigs, but gmafb

Yeah, his shooting percentage shows that he's not some great shooter. But I think his willingness to take that 15 footer the offense generates is something that oscar likes in this offense. DJamer is just going to be an around the basket guy and teams have to respect Nino out to 15. At least in theory.

And coming in at his size I'm not sure how many minutes DJamer can play. We all saw Gip wear down as the season went along last year. Nino is unknown because he's been hurt so much, but it at least it appears he can maintain energy for the minutes he gets, I'm not sold DJamer can do that yet.

Your first paragraph described Diaz.  I dont think throw it at the rim and go get it is effective for the bigs too.  Nino gives us nothing unique at all.

Last season Gip's production was down not only because the competition improved but he was overweight and the grind became an issue, I'm not concerned about DJs fitness.

[MakeItRain]

I agree with KK that we should play our best power forward and center the most minutes at power forward and center.

Yeah this is a pretty simple argument, Nino is getting too many minutes.  The end.

[Kat Kid]

I agree with KK that we should play our best power forward and center the most minutes at power forward and center.

Yeah this is a pretty simple argument, Nino is getting too many minutes.  The end.

Yeah, it took me a long rough ridin' time to type that out.  I think it was worth it, but maybe not.

[CNS]

I also think part of Gip's prob was his lack of jump and/or height.  Not having one and playing the 5 is doable, not having both is an issue. 

I am very worried that soph Gip, although improved physically, still won't manage an adequate presence at the rim as the only low post option(sorry but shane will not be a productive 4 in conf) in conference play and that will only allow teams to exploit our lack of guard play by not having to contend with a more substantial post player. 

That said, I really like this year's gip.  I am a fan. 

Not trying to bait MIR into the JO discussion here, but it really is super important to this team that he get much more PT in a role that allows him to thrive.  Otherwise conference could be super disappointing.

[kso_FAN]

I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.

[MakeItRain]

I agree with KK that we should play our best power forward and center the most minutes at power forward and center.

Yeah this is a pretty simple argument, Nino is getting too many minutes.  The end.

Yeah, it took me a long rough ridin' time to type that out.  I think it was worth it, but maybe not.

No it was good work.  I freaked out about this for two hours straight last night in chat.

[Kat Kid]

I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.

LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!

[kso_FAN]

I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.

LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!

We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.

Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.

To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.

Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.

[Trim]

We'll really compete if we can start 8 against 5, assuming that doesn't make things too congested for McG.

[Kat Kid]

I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.

LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!

We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.

Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.

To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.

Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.

Fair enough.  I think we all agree the #1 problem is that oscar has refused to budge from his assertion that Nino is one of those 6.

That said, do you put any stock in the distribution of starts?  Tabling the minutes discussion.  I mean it is weird right.

[CNS]

Guys, I don't have any statistically reason for this, but I kinda like Nino, or at least the thought of Nino.  I think he could be a Jamar type only not as good at it as Jamar.  He is so physical he should be getting to the line a bunch more and I think he will figure that out over time.  I also think he can be the type of guy to frustrate the crap out of some of the other team's guys.

Also, iirc, he was a decent shooter his sr yr of hs.  I have hope that he can find that again.

I definitely haven't given up on him.

Hope, I guess....

[Trim]

I've got a post-it covering Nino's face on my schedule poster at the office. 

[Kat Kid]

Guys, I don't have any statistically reason for this, but I kinda like Nino, or at least the thought of Nino.  I think he could be a Jamar type only not as good at it as Jamar.  He is so physical he should be getting to the line a bunch more and I think he will figure that out over time.  I also think he can be the type of guy to frustrate the crap out of some of the other team's guys.

Also, iirc, he was a decent shooter his sr yr of hs.  I have hope that he can find that again.

I definitely haven't given up on him.

Hope, I guess....

Well I sure would like even a poor man's JamSam that was a decent shooter, frustrates the crap out of the other team's guys and gets to the line.  But that isn't Nino.  It isn't just statistics that say your hopes are foolish, but the FT rate in particular is just terrible.  The only players that are worse?  Rod, Shane and Tay.

[CNS]

Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now.  Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset.  I know it is foolish.

Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going).  I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.

[Kat Kid]

Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now.  Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset.  I know it is foolish.

Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going).  I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.

All solid points.  My counter would be that he kind of sucks at basketball.  I hope you are right though.

[kso_FAN]

Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now.  Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset.  I know it is foolish.

Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going).  I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.

I'm with you. I can't deny KK's point that his FT rate is terrible. I think there is also some merit in his TO rate/Assist rate compared to the other bigs as well. I'm sure part of oscar's attraction to Nino is his ability to pass/cut/screen in the motion offense.

I have to say I'm a bit surprised that Nino and Shane our the best 2 defensive rebounders we have, when you look at Def Reb%. Statistical anomaly? Not sure.

[steaksdime]

I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.

LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!

We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.

Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.

To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.

Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.

As JO goes so will our conference season.

That there is an argument over whether Gip, Nino, Diaz, or DJamer should be getting more minutes/starts at the 4/5 is a sad commentary on the team. None should be getting solid minutes much less starting. Gip is a fine match up/back up guy. The others need to be Franked.

[Kat Kid]

couple more things:

1. re: our earlier discussion about the relative importance of these minutes _FAN       KSU Bench Minutes:   39.8% (national rank 24)
2. Our defensive rebounding has not been good and we don't have any good defensive rebounders.  Also, I think it is still quite a bit of statistical noise.

But a quick look at 20%+ DR%'rs in the Big 12:

OSU: Jurick 22%, Cobbins 21%
WVU:  Murray 22%, Rutledge 21%
TCU:  McKinney 24%, Abron 22%
OU:  Neal 23%, Osby 20%
KU:  Young 23%, Withey 20%
ISU: Ejim 26%
UT:  Holmes 20%
Tech: Crockett 25%, Tapsoba 24%
Baylor: Austin 21%, Prince 21%, Jefferson 20%
KSU:

[Sandstone Outcropping]

Not to deviate from the official narrative about oscar sucking when it comes to managing big men, this is usually the time of year when Frank is running a McDonald's AA off the team or suspending JO indefinitely from the team.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7481405/kansas-state-wildcats-suspend-jordan-henriquez-indefinitely

 

[kso_FAN]

I don't think we should be completely surprised with a new coach having strange roster rotations. Heck, Frank had strange roster rotations every year.

Shane and Nino both being over 19% in DR% given both play decent minutes should say they are decent defensive rebounders, especially given their size. Granted, its still a small sample size, but that could at least in small part explain their usage. I agree that DJamer has rebounded well also.

[Kat Kid]

I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.

LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!

We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.

Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.

To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.

Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.

As JO goes so will our conference season.

That there is an argument over whether Gip, Nino, Diaz, or DJamer should be getting more minutes/starts at the 4/5 is a sad commentary on the team. None should be getting solid minutes much less starting. Gip is a fine match up/back up guy. The others need to be Franked.

Well I mean if we take that tact, then I'm much more worried about guard next year than post.  For this year, I am not sure you are entirely right.  Gip is a Big 12 quality post getting as many minutes as he does for us for every team not KU/Baylor/OU

[Kat Kid]

I don't think we should be completely surprised with a new coach having strange roster rotations. Heck, Frank had strange roster rotations every year.

Shane and Nino both being over 19% in DR% given both play decent minutes should say they are decent defensive rebounders, especially given their size. Granted, its still a small sample size, but that could at least in small part explain their usage. I agree that DJamer has rebounded well also.

Point: it is bizarre that we are the only team without a single player over the 20% DR% mark. 

Counter point: we do have 2 guys at 19 and one at 18.

Point: Our rebounding has been crappy all year.