oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)

[CNS]

Crappy reb and crappy shooting.

Ugh.   

This year may kill me.

[MakeItRain]

Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now.  Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset.  I know it is foolish.

Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going).  I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.

What is this rough style stuff all about?  Seems code for unskilled and plays like football players at the rec.  Jamar was very skilled.

[gatoveintisiete]

breakdown of a great game for Jo

1- successful post move  2pts
2- stickbacks after somebody else drives and misses 4pts
1- open 12 footer 2pts
2-4 at the line 2pts
1 dob lob from penetrating Angel 2pts

8 rebounds
2 blocks

25 minutes

Him having games like this would be a product of Angel driving to the basket alot, If oscar doesn't turn Art loose JO really can't  be his DOB best.

[MakeItRain]

Not to deviate from the official narrative about oscar sucking when it comes to managing big men, this is usually the time of year when Frank is running a McDonald's AA off the team or suspending JO indefinitely from the team.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7481405/kansas-state-wildcats-suspend-jordan-henriquez-indefinitely

 

What is your point?  You agree with how the bigs minutes have been handled?  What does this have to do with Frank Martin suspending JO last season?  How did JO play after that suspension? I don't remember how he finished the season.

[CNS]

Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now.  Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset.  I know it is foolish.

Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going).  I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.

What is this rough style stuff all about?  Seems code for unskilled and plays like football players at the rec.  Jamar was very skilled.

Fully agree on skill level.  Jamar played strong and roughed others up during his physical play.  nino goes pretty strong as well but is obvs not as skilled as jamar.  My point though is that he is successful in getting boards and does so in a strong aggressive manner.  He needs to put that together with put backs and draw fouls.  I am not even too worried about him making said put backs as Jamar struggled like hell with that as well.  Just get the foul, frustrate the defender for getting the foul, then do his best to knock a couple FT's down.  That was Jamar's game.

Nino is young.  I just hope he figures that out.

[kso_FAN]

I don't think we should be completely surprised with a new coach having strange roster rotations. Heck, Frank had strange roster rotations every year.

Shane and Nino both being over 19% in DR% given both play decent minutes should say they are decent defensive rebounders, especially given their size. Granted, its still a small sample size, but that could at least in small part explain their usage. I agree that DJamer has rebounded well also.

Point: it is bizarre that we are the only team without a single player over the 20% DR% mark. 

Counter point: we do have 2 guys at 19 and one at 18.

Point: Our rebounding has been crappy all year.

Defensive rebouding is below average. Offensive rebounding is great.

But (by far) the biggest weakness on this team is shooting/scoring. Defensive boarding would definitely be 2nd though.

[steaksdime]

I think we all agree that JO and Gip our the best 2 to throw out there as bigs. I suppose we can debate Nino vs DJamer for the rest, I'm not sure its a big difference in results either way, both have plenty of limitations as players. I don't see Diaz as being a viable option right now. And of course Shane at the 4 minutes as well, but that's a different discussion.

LET'S HAVE THOSE DISCUSSIONS!

We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.

Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.

To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.

Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.

As JO goes so will our conference season.

That there is an argument over whether Gip, Nino, Diaz, or DJamer should be getting more minutes/starts at the 4/5 is a sad commentary on the team. None should be getting solid minutes much less starting. Gip is a fine match up/back up guy. The others need to be Franked.

Well I mean if we take that tact, then I'm much more worried about guard next year than post.  For this year, I am not sure you are entirely right.  Gip is a Big 12 quality post getting as many minutes as he does for us for every team not KU/Baylor/OU

I am terrified of guard and post next year. Not sure one looks worse than the other.
The difference between how we could use Gip last year and this year is we could share his minutes with JamSam, a completely different, better player. This year he is sharing with his clone. Add his minutes and DJamer's together and you get his total minutes. Too many to be competitive in the Big XII.

[Mixed-Nutz]

Anything other then Shane and Nino exclusively splitting time at the 4 is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We have to play small and spread the court we are not skilled enough to score efficiently enough to win in a motion offense otherwise. Gip plays more than JO because he know what the eff he is doing and sets decent screens. JO can get lost on offense and has never truly been decent at setting screens.

[MakeItRain]

Oh, I understand that he isn't getting to the line now.  Just saying his rough style usually lands guys there and hoping that he could put two and two together to add that skillset.  I know it is foolish.

Maybe I am caught up in the fact that he plays rough, plays low often, and rebounds well(which puts him in prime position to get the andone putback action going).  I mean, he should be able to make this happen and I find myself hoping.

What is this rough style stuff all about?  Seems code for unskilled and plays like football players at the rec.  Jamar was very skilled.

Fully agree on skill level.  Jamar played strong and roughed others up during his physical play.  nino goes pretty strong as well but is obvs not as skilled as jamar.  My point though is that he is successful in getting boards and does so in a strong aggressive manner.  He needs to put that together with put backs and draw fouls.  I am not even too worried about him making said put backs as Jamar struggled like hell with that as well.  Just get the foul, frustrate the defender for getting the foul, then do his best to knock a couple FT's down.  That was Jamar's game.

Nino is young.  I just hope he figures that out.

Its his third year as a college basketball player.  Also another dagger in the jamar comparo/hope.  Nino has the worst OR% of all the scholarship bigs, all of them including Diaz and he has the 2nd worst eFG and true shooting percentage on the entire team.  Jamar was great in these metrics.  Really its stunning how inefficient he is when you look at the advanced metrics.

http://kstateupdate.com/kansas-state-basketball/stats

[MakeItRain]

Anything other then Shane and Nino exclusively splitting time at the 4 is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We have to play small and spread the court we are not skilled enough to score efficiently enough to win in a motion offense otherwise. Gip plays more than JO because he know what the eff he is doing and sets decent screens. JO can get lost on offense and has never truly been decent at setting screens.

No one is complaining about Gip getting more minutes than JO, Gip has been great.  Nino doesn't deserve time at the 4 or anywhere else.  Its odd that you think he should split time with Shane, they don't give you the same thing.  If you insist at playing Nino at the 4 I have no idea why you wouldn't just play big, Nino is no more of a scoring threat at the 4 than any other big.  I think JO should play the four it allows him to face up a lot more and you can still have Gip or DJamer playing in the low post.

[Mixed-Nutz]

Anything other then Shane and Nino exclusively splitting time at the 4 is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We have to play small and spread the court we are not skilled enough to score efficiently enough to win in a motion offense otherwise. Gip plays more than JO because he know what the eff he is doing and sets decent screens. JO can get lost on offense and has never truly been decent at setting screens.

No one is complaining about Gip getting more minutes than JO, Gip has been great.  Nino doesn't deserve time at the 4 or anywhere else.  Its odd that you think he should split time with Shane, they don't give you the same thing.  If you insist at playing Nino at the 4 I have no idea why you wouldn't just play big, Nino is no more of a scoring threat at the 4 than any other big.  I think JO should play the four it allows him to face up a lot more and you can still have Gip or DJamer playing in the low post.

Believe Shane is the best 4, Gip and Jo both shouldn't play much over 25 mis a game because their endurance. The argument comes down to Diaz, DJamer and Niño. None of them are good but I believe Niño brings energy to the game this team needs.

[Kat Kid]

Anything other then Shane and Nino exclusively splitting time at the 4 is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). We have to play small and spread the court we are not skilled enough to score efficiently enough to win in a motion offense otherwise. Gip plays more than JO because he know what the eff he is doing and sets decent screens. JO can get lost on offense and has never truly been decent at setting screens.

No one is complaining about Gip getting more minutes than JO, Gip has been great.  Nino doesn't deserve time at the 4 or anywhere else.  Its odd that you think he should split time with Shane, they don't give you the same thing.  If you insist at playing Nino at the 4 I have no idea why you wouldn't just play big, Nino is no more of a scoring threat at the 4 than any other big.  I think JO should play the four it allows him to face up a lot more and you can still have Gip or DJamer playing in the low post.

Believe Shane is the best 4, Gip and Jo both shouldn't play much over 25 mis a game because their endurance. The argument comes down to Diaz, DJamer and Niño. None of them are good but I believe Niño brings energy to the game this team needs.

Combined?

[Mixed-Nutz]

Each

[Kat Kid]

Each

Well Gip is playing around 20 minutes a game and JO is playing 13 so I think we should be ok.

[MakeItRain]

All (one) of the arguments for Nino pretty much call for him to get about 12mpg.  High energy, do nothing else but play hard guy should be providing spark off of the bench; you know like Energy did.

[8manpick]

I really think that if we are going to be successful against good, athletic teams, we are best served by having JO play as much as possible, which is probably 25 minutes for him.  Having a defensive presence at the rim is really important, and I believe that it helps to have someone who is taller than 6'6" playing at all times, but that's just me.

[kso_FAN]

We don't agree on Nino/DJamer, but I don't think the "answer" is definitive right now. I'm good with either guy playing really.

Given those limitations, I'm fine with Shane getting some of those 4 minutes and playing 4 guards.

To me those are secondary things. Yeah, they may help, but the success of this team this season really comes from the Top 6 guys.

Rodney, Angel, Will, Tay on the perimeter (in that order) and JO and Gip inside are the keys to this season. We need solid bench play, but it won't matter if our Top 6 don't play well.

In our first 2 Big 12 games Nino and Shane take turns making me look dumb.

But to the thread, this was a really good discussion; interesting to see if anyone has adjusted their opinion. I suppose this is also partially where my comment the other day about oscar and small ball came from; it will be interesting to see how these line-ups and rotations evolve for oscar through Big 12 play.

[8manpick]

I still want more JO, and JO starting.  Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO

[CNS]

Yeah, JO's biggest barrier is JO the last three games, in that he has to get a hold of the fouling.  That aside, he is fantastic.

[Kat Kid]

Yeah Shane and Nino have risen to the occasion, but I still think JO needs more minutes (also, foul trouble).  I think JO/Gip not being on the court at the same time is probably a bad idea since DJamer has disappeared (would still like to see him get some minutes just to see, but so far MIR wins this decisively) as Nino/Shane should be 4s and never 5s.  So if I had to choose between small and tiny ball, I'm going Small and loving Shane/Nino at the 4.  So far so good there.  So wrong I was.

[kso_FAN]

I still want more JO, and JO starting.  Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO

I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.

Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.

[Sandstone Outcropping]

I still want more JO, and JO starting.  Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO

I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.

Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.

If JO doesn't start, should we have Shane try to get the jump ball at the start of the game instead of Gip? Should we just defer to the second half automatically? I haven't seen this discussed much around here and I think it bears discussion.

[8manpick]

I still want more JO, and JO starting.  Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO

I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.

Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.

I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench.  Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not.  I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact.  I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself.  I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.

Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game.  Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.

[Sandstone Outcropping]

I still want more JO, and JO starting.  Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO

I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.

Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.

I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench.  Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not.  I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact.  I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself.  I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.

Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game.  Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.

The athletic dept needs to hire a good sport psychologist and get this figured out.

[CNS]

I still want more JO, and JO starting.  Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO

I want JO getting minutes as well, but it doesn't matter to me if he starts. Frankly, Gip has been more consistent so I don't have a problem with him starting. Lately oscar has been trying to play JO more, but JO has been limiting himself with foul problems. In some ways it may benefit him to come off the bench to help him avoid an early cheap foul, plus give us a defensive spark and rim presence.

Ideally JO and Gip get 20-25 with Nino and Shane getting 15-20 each. Shane is going to get a few on the perimeter as well when needed. I can live with that rotation.

I think part of JO's struggles are related to him coming off the bench.  Some players deal with this well (Jamar) and others do not.  I think that when JO knows he is a backup, he comes off the bench more anxious to do something with an immediate impact.  I think that makes him overly aggressive instead of playing within himself.  I think if he knew he was a starter he wouldn't play quite as aggressively and might avoid foul trouble more.

Last year he was able to play 20 minutes a game with 2.4 fouls per game.  Did you guys know he fouled out 0 times last year? 6 times he had 4.

The athletic dept needs to hire a good sport psychologist and get this figured out.

They just fired the bitb.