Author Topic: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)  (Read 11999 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« on: December 30, 2012, 05:28:26 PM »
TL;DR:  Nino plays too much, JO and DJamer not enough.

I have been a bit puzzled about oscar's rotations and starting lineups, so I thought I would take a bit of time to look at them more in-depth.  I went through and took a look at the starters for every game, starting with a season overview, going in-depth on some of the notable non-con games so far.  This thing got long, but if you stick through it I think you will see that there is ample evidence to suggest that our post minutes are being badly mishandled.

Season Starts and Bench Minutes
 position     name      games played-games started
PG-         Angel      (11-11)
G-         Will        (12-12)
G-          Rod       (12-12)
F-          Nino       (11-10)
F-          Gip/JO    (6 starts each)
*G/F-     Shane    (10-3 picking up the missed starts from Nino/Angel)

Comment
A few things here.  The guard slots basically have been unchanged and there is nothing to really report there outside of the fact that Tay has zero starts thus far and Southwell has 3.  Both are slight surprises to me.  The second thing that really stands out (which I will expound upon later) is what is happening with the bigs.  Gipson and JO have 6 starts a piece while Nino has been a fixture at the four.  The strange thing is that minutes wise Gipson is the most played big (20.9mpg), followed by Nino (16mpg) and JO/Diaz/DJamer all close together.  My guess is oscar views Nino as his "energy" guy and wants him on the floor to start the game, then hopes that JO/Diaz/DJamer can come in and provide some size right as the back up bigs are coming in or the starting oppo bigs may be tiring/have picked up a foul.

Bench minutes
*6th man
*Shane 19mpg
Tay  17 mpg
Omari 10 mpg

Bigs
JO   13 mpg
DJamer   13 mpg
Diaz 11 mpg

Comment
When looking at the entire season, it would appear that oscar thinks roughly equally of JO/DJamer/Diaz and likes Gip and Nino the best of the 5.  But looking at the most recent lineups that isn't exactly the case.  The early evidence was mixed, with Nino getting starts, very little of Gip, small but growing minutes for DJamer (who had some really nice games early) and Diaz and JO roughly equal, but with JO getting starts.  I was pretty furious at the time, but I have to admit oscar has shown some progress, although I might wonder why it took him so long to figure some basic facts out (like Diaz is much worse than JO) and I don't think I am going to ever win on this Nino thing.  But I offer the following evidence that at least the Diaz problem it is getting better, while other problems have emerged [ starters in bold, minutes in () ]:

Michigan:
Nino (12)
JO  (16)
DJamer           (18)
Diaz        (13)
Gip         (11)

Terrible minute distribution.

George Washington:
Nino  (16)
Gip  (31)
JO            (16)
DJamer            (12)
Diaz          (5)

Much better and getting close to my ideal distribution of minutes. 

Gonzaga:
Nino (6, got injured)
Gip    (19)
Diaz           (20)
DJamer              (18)
JO              (10)

This was the most indefensible use of resources on the season and a oscar hater's delight.  Olynyk completely destroyed the post players and JO might've been an effective response if he'd been used from the start.  But they all sucked, the whole group combined for 10 points and 12 rebounds so I'm not sure that oscar really could've done much as he was grasping and Rodney's 4 points had more to do with our loss as the bigs.

Texas Southern:
Gip  (26)
Shane (36)
JO             (10)
Diaz           (6)
DJamer              (6)

I went back and forth on whether to include Shane's minutes as part of the bigs here.  oscar clearly values Shane's guard skills over his practically non-existent. He basically played Nino's minutes, then also played his normal minutes at the 3.  This was also the best game of his career so it is an outlier both in opportunity and production.  I mean Shane even rebounded!  I kind of get what Nino brings (Energy/Rebounding) but at the four what does Shane bring?..... mobility away from the basket?  Passing?  Energy?.  This will be the only time you will hear me associate Shane with "energy" evenly indirectly but I am having a hard time making a connection between he and Nino other than "size."  oscar does not like having two non-Nino bigs in to start the game.  I am not sure why that is, and I could be forcing a connection, but the evidence says that he will not start Gip and JO/Diaz/DJamer alongside each other under any circumstance (although Diaz/JO started both the exhibitions).  There is ample evidence for this and it continues with Florida.

Florida:
Gip   (18)
Shane (24)
JO               (18)
Nino            (17)
DJamer               (3)

JO was dominant for large stretches, Gip and Nino played solid if unremarkable minutes against two very good posts in Patric Young and Erick Murphy.  Shane did Shane things and Diaz and DJamer were absent.  Shane was again slotted in the "Nino role" even though Nino was available and played significant minutes.  A combination of Shane's career night against Texas Southern and Nino's injury probably conspired to give Shane the nod.  Compared with where we started at the beginning of the year, (roughly even minutes for Diaz/JO) and where we were in our darkest days against Michigan (roughly even minutes for every big) and Gonzaga (20 minutes for Diaz) I believe the rotations are beginning to take shape and they are encouraging.  But oscar philosophically seems wedded to an undersized tweener getting significant minutes starting in the post and with this lineup this is indefensible.  It is a complete misallocation of resources in service of I'm not really sure.  Given the constraint, I think oscar is doing about as best he can, but why does he feel the need to tie a hand behind his own back?

This leads us to the logical contortions that oscar went through last night:

Starters vs. UMKC

PG- Shane Southwell
G- Will Spradling
G- Rodney McGruder
F-  Thomas Gipson  (24)
F-  Nino Williams    (32)

Bench
JO             (12)
Diaz           (3)
DJamer              (4)

Brucecuses-  Playing Shane a better passer (the worst non-big ballhandler) at the point is better than playing Will, Tay is not suited out, Angel DNP, Michael Orris sucks, I can't play two bigs at the same time.

Perhaps the most lollable lineup of the year was in for a few minutes last night too:

G- Omari
G- Sprads
F- Shane
F- DJamer
C- Diaz

Conclusions:

There are 3 main problems that I want to highlight.  They are obviously interrelated.  The minutes must be filled and it is a zero-sum proposition, someone must take from the pool while someone else must go without.  Minutes are precious things and they should be scarce for the weak and plentiful for the strong.  Basketball is a cruel world.  oscar has spent many of these precious minutes this year poorly in my opinion and while those minutes can not be recovered, they can be spent differently going forward.

The JO Problem
JO showed against Florida what makes him so dangerous, which makes his spotty opportunities this year even more frustrating.  If the premise is that oscar has given Diaz so many minutes because he is trying to develop him (any arguments that he is good enough to be on the court in the proportions that he has been thus far will be immediately dismissed) then JO is as damning a counter as exists.  The problem is two fold though because the development of Diaz has been terrible too.  Diaz is still so lost he cannot set a screen on offense or correctly position himself or protect the rim on defense.

JO is capable of being an enormous asset even if his offense is substandard, but he is playing 2 more mpg than Adrian Diaz and 3 fewer than Nino Williams and 7 fewer than Thomas Gipson.  I don't understand it.  Even if you think starts are irrelevant, the minutes make no sense.  JO has some responsibility for the many times he has played poorly, but oscar has mismanaged the allocation of minutes so as to further limit JO's development.

The Nino Problem
I do not begrudge oscar his Nino love.  Every coach has a weakness.  There are always players that coaches will play with almost no regard to their worth.  But this is love affair is without any sense of proportion or restraint.  It is one thing to have a side piece, it is another to bring your lover to the dinner table.  Nino does not get to the line, he does not shoot well, he cannot protect the rim, he does not handle or pass the ball particularly well.  He is an average rebounder, he hustles, he can set a screen and he plays decent defense.  The fact that he has started every game he has been healthy and played more minutes than JO is completely insane.  I do not get it.  But the worst part is that oscar seems to want to slot in Shane when JO is unavailable.  Shane has gotten better, Shane offers some things, but Shane and Nino are in no way interchangeable.  That much became clear when Shane played some point last night.  oscar seems committed to playing smaller come hell or high water, and even when both show up he will still only throw one post out there.  I don't understand it.

The DJamer Problem
I think DJamer is better than Nino.  I have reasons to believe this, both statistical and with my own eyes, but it is really that simple.  He rebounds better.  He can finish better.  He plays better post defense.  He gets to the line more.  He is not as fast, he can not play players away from the hoop as well as Nino and he will not get as many floor burns, but  I don't get what I'm missing.  If you just swapped roles DJamer for Nino, I'd be so much happier.  It would still be a travesty for JO, but at least DJamer would be producing.  Someone needs to stage an intervention with oscar.


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Offline steve dave

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oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 05:30:00 PM »
Great post kk

Offline michigancat

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 05:32:05 PM »
sorry,


Offline ChiComCat

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 05:32:48 PM »
Thats the longest inside joke I've ever read

Offline CNS

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 05:37:11 PM »
There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start.  He isn't playing well?  Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.

oscar needs to start gip and JO.  oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so.  That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes. 

Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr?  Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.

Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO.  We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 05:40:09 PM »
Glad I got that off my chest you guys.

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 05:41:19 PM »
oscar has said repeatedly that playing 2 "true bigs" together makes it too congested inside for Rodney to do Rodney things, hence Shane/Nino at 4. 

Didn't look but seems Shane and others have picked up some DNP-CDs.  If so, did you count those as 0-minute games or just take the game away when figuring average minutes?

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 05:44:08 PM »
There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start.  He isn't playing well?  Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.

oscar needs to start gip and JO.  oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so.  That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes. 

Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr?  Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.

Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO.  We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.

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Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape.  Do you even watch the games?




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Offline CNS

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 05:45:55 PM »
oscar is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on the rod point.  No stats looked up here, but my eyes tell me that rod got plenty, if not more, looks from the paint last season when we had two bigs in at all times.

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 05:47:12 PM »
oscar is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on the rod point.  No stats looked up here, but my eyes tell me that rod got plenty, if not more, looks from the paint last season when we had two bigs in at all times.

I simply report #oscar; I don't support #oscar.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 05:47:40 PM »
oscar has said repeatedly that playing 2 "true bigs" together makes it too congested inside for Rodney to do Rodney things, hence Shane/Nino at 4. 

Didn't look but seems Shane and others have picked up some DNP-CDs.  If so, did you count those as 0-minute games or just take the game away when figuring average minutes?

You bring up a good point re: oscar's reasoning.  I forgot about that, but considering that I'm not sure what the difference between Nino and DJamer is in that scenario.  I'd rather have Shane if this whole no bigs thing is a given.  All that said, Rod managed to get shots last year and he could easily get shots this year if Gip and JO were in the game at the same time.

however kstatesports.com figures that is how the season stats were figured.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 05:49:57 PM »
There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start.  He isn't playing well?  Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.

oscar needs to start gip and JO.  oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so.  That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes. 

Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr?  Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.

Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO.  We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.

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Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape.  Do you even watch the games?

Ok.  But what about the other players that have played?  We can compare them.  I just spent some time doing that.

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 05:50:23 PM »
I am pretty sure that having actual bigs in will draw the larger defenders thus letting rod exploit a smaller 3 guard in the paint.

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 05:51:48 PM »
All that said, Rod managed to get shots last year and he could easily get shots this year if Gip and JO were in the game at the same time.

But can he get rebounds with all that "beef" inside?

Answer me when you've taken a team of Bill Seff's players to the national championship.

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 05:54:17 PM »
There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start.  He isn't playing well?  Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.

oscar needs to start gip and JO.  oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so.  That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes. 

Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr?  Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.

Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO.  We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.

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Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape.  Do you even watch the games?

Ok.  But what about the other players that have played?  We can compare them.  I just spent some time doing that.

They've all been at least marginally better. What do think, play with 4?

DNR you're uninteresting stream of consciousness


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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2012, 05:54:29 PM »
There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start.  He isn't playing well?  Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.

oscar needs to start gip and JO.  oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so.  That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes. 

Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr?  Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.

Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO.  We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2


Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape.  Do you even watch the games?

We have played no one so far with the exception of Zaga and Florida.  Exactly who have we played that JO would have lost the game for us?  This time of the year is for getting the team to flow and getting the individual funks worked out.  Huge oscar fail that we still are full of JO funk and are one week from starting conf play.  HUGE.  Probably his biggest failure to date as a cat.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2012, 06:24:42 PM »
KK, this post was worthy of being on the blog. Called it Kid Talk or Kat Nip or something. :dunno:

oscar is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) on the rod point.  No stats looked up here, but my eyes tell me that rod got plenty, if not more, looks from the paint last season when we had two bigs in at all times.

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This year for Rod: (percentages of shot attempts)
Shots at the rim: 23%. 2 PT Jump shots: 54%. 3 PT Jump shots: 23%.
Last year for Rod:
Shots at the rim: 24%. 2 PT Jump shots: 44%. 3 PT Jump shots: 32%.

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2012, 06:34:50 PM »
KK, this post was worthy of being on the blog. Called it Kid Talk or Kat Nip or something. :dunno:

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2012, 06:38:52 PM »
Wrinkle?

Quote
"I would like a starting seven, a starting eight," Weber said. "If we get to where we have a starting eight, then we really have a chance to compete in the Big 12."

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2012, 06:43:24 PM »
I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.

Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2012, 06:51:17 PM »
There is zero reason that JO shouldn't start.  He isn't playing well?  Sounds like a coach issue considering what he did last yr.

oscar needs to start gip and JO.  oscar lets Nino play out a bit and range around a little. Well let jo do that up to 12' or so.  That way be can play the face up short drive dob game he likes. 

Also, what happens when/if gip hits the conf the same as last yr?  Under the current scheme we would be completely mumped.

Bottom line: we are a much better team with an engaged JO.  We have to find a way to make that work. Have to.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2


Other than the UF game, JO has been an enormous liability on both ends of the court. He also appears to have lost weight and be out of shape.  Do you even watch the games?

We have played no one so far with the exception of Zaga and Florida.  Exactly who have we played that JO would have lost the game for us?  This time of the year is for getting the team to flow and getting the individual funks worked out.  Huge oscar fail that we still are full of JO funk and are one week from starting conf play.  HUGE.  Probably his biggest failure to date as a cat.

Huge coaching fail would be to allow the guy not trying and playing like crap to play over others. This one is on JO dood.
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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2012, 07:11:58 PM »
DJamer is not ready for significant minutes, that being said he's better than Nino.  I'm not going to talk about the JO minutes thing again until January 7, I'm not in the mood to get pissed again.  Literally everyone knows oscar is being moronic for how he is handling JO.  It was interesting to hear him called out for it last week by a couple of media members.  This guy makes it difficult to sustain any goodwill for his program.

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 07:21:04 PM »
I'm not as sold as you on DJamer. I think the value of Nino is his athleticism, perceived ability to hit 15 foot jump shots, and that he plays really hard. Nino's oboarding is solid and he actually has the best defensive rebounding of all the bigs. I like the future of DJamer, but he's limited because of his size and lack of athleticism. To me DJamer is another Gip and I don't think we want both of those guys on the floor at the same time.

Gip is probably going to be a 25 MPG guy. Ideally get JO to 25 MPG. Nino around 20. Then Diaz/DJamer/Shane the rest.

nino can't shoot, so let's get that talking point out of there.  I know that isn't your claim but we are about halfway through the year.  He has had plenty of opportunities.  He can't shoot.  DJamer has a higher O-board and D-board % from kenpom, he is also only 1 reb/game short of nino in 3mpg fewer.  He is not as quick/athletic.  I know it isn't a perfect metric but if Nino is supposedly significantly more athletic/plays harder why in 26 fewer minutes does DJamer have: 7 more blocks/2 fewer steals?  I mean the lost offense between the two is significant to me.  DJamer is an o-reb putback guy and doesn't take bad shots, but comprehensively I think he is better.  The one big advantae Nino does seem to have is he seems to know the offense better than the other bigs, but gmafb

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Re: oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 07:21:51 PM »
I think oscar should start the players with the largest honkers.  I would measure by length and not by girth.  And they would have to be semi flacid.  Not completely hard because that would be gay, but enough in their hose to get the wrinkles out.  Fair is fair and that to me sounds like the best way to get our starting 5 more consistant playing time.
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