oscar's starting lineups and rotations (long)

[Kat Kid]

the book on ku is to double Withey off of Kevin Young.

What I would like to see is a box and 2 with runners on mcclemore and ej/tharpe.

[yosh]

the book on ku is to double Withey off of Kevin Young.

What I would like to see is a box and 2 with runners on mcclemore and ej/tharpe.

not to be a dick, cause I know what you mean (triangle and 2), but we would kick KUs ass if they let us run a box and 2.

[kso_FAN]

Rod 35
Angel 30
Will 27
Shane 26
Gip 23

JO 23
Tay 22
Nino 14

[Kat Kid]

the book on ku is to double Withey off of Kevin Young.

What I would like to see is a box and 2 with runners on mcclemore and ej/tharpe.

not to be a dick, cause I know what you mean (triangle and 2), but we would kick KUs ass if they let us run a box and 2.

yeah started with box and 1 and switched.  then i think you got confused?

[yosh]

the book on ku is to double Withey off of Kevin Young.

What I would like to see is a box and 2 with runners on mcclemore and ej/tharpe.

not to be a dick, cause I know what you mean (triangle and 2), but we would kick KUs ass if they let us run a box and 2.

yeah started with box and 1 and switched.  then i think you got confused?

Just saying I think we'd win if we had 6 players to their 5   

[ksufan44]

I think Gip's playing time over JO has a lot more to do with opening up the rest of our offense. It is clear oscar wants to have a 4 that has some outside range, therefore the lack of playing 2 bigs at one time for the most part. And with Nino/Shane at the 4, we spread inside outside more. Gip also passes out of the post, JO doesn't.

[Powercat Posse]

Yeah i probably had Will for too many minutes.   Probably should have Angel at 31 and Will at 30.  I just dont see oscar taking Will's minutes to 25 or under. 

We need more out of both Angel and Will.   Cant have 3 pts in 2 games from Will and Angel needs to step his game up.  He is the 2nd best playe on this team but too many silly mistakes here lately and he has only made 9 of his last 36 3pt shots.   FWIW... he had 9 3pt makes in the 1st 3 games this year and only has 9 since.

[MakeItRain]

I still want more JO, and JO starting.  Part of it revolves around fouls, but a lot of it has to do with Webber believing that JO should back up Gipson, which I will never, ever, ever in my life support. #TeamJO

I'd want more of JO if he could give us what he's capable of.  Basically, he needs to stop being a moron and committing stupid fouls.  More smart play = more minutes.  More minutes for JO is a good thing for this team.

I do not agree with your assessment of "stupid fouls." JO is an aggressive shot blocker and a rebounder.  We need JO aggressive, if he isn't aggressive he's no good to us.  Because JO needs to be aggressive and because he's a good but not great shot blocker he picks up these fouls.  He relies on height to block shots instead of timing and footwork and because of this its, as _FAN has pointed out, its much easier for people to get into his body. I was watching Withey earlier this year and, I'm pretty sure it was Doherty, talked about that his volleyball background helps him to keep balls in play because they don't "hit the ball hard." Obviously stupid.  His volleyball background helps his footwork and his timing, it's what makes him a great shot blocker.  Anyway back to JO, for him to be what we need him to be he's going to get over-the-backs and slapping dudes arms, etc.  A stupid foul for him is anything that happens outside of the paint.

[MakeItRain]

IMO JO has to adjust the way he plays defense. Its clear what other teams are doing against him; when you attack JO make sure you get into his body as you shoot (not after) and he will bump you and draw the foul. I'd guess over half of his fouls are clean blocks, but he is getting body contact as he blocks the shot and a foul call as the shot happens.

Admittedly, I haven't gone back and watched film, but my observation is that he's fouling with his arms much moreso than with his body.  His trouble begins by being out of position.  He's either too slow rotating to the ball, or he simply guards his man too far from the basket.  In either case, he leaves the basket unprotected far too often.  He then tries to compensate for his poor position by using his wingspan to reach out (not up) to block shots.  But, more often than not, a big man reaching across the body to block a shot will be called for a foul.

I see a lot of this out of JO.









   

Great post Belvis, but those aren't dumb fouls, they are fouls that a shot blocker is going to make.  I'd bet two of those weren't called.

[Mixed-Nutz]

JO vs Gip, Shane vs Nino and Will vs Tay playing time should be based on who playing the best in the game they are currently in.

[MakeItRain]

What lineup gets Withey pushed out farthest from the rim?  That's the one we want next Tuesday.

This isn't really all that important for us, our guards don't score from the paint at all.

[MakeItRain]

The only argument for Will over Irving is his 52/18 A/TO ratio.  Irving comes in at 32/12. 

Btw, speaking of A/TO ratios, I'd like a stat geek to explain to me why our two best big men, Gip and JO have a combined A/TO ratio of 5/38?  I mean, that's rough ridin' abysmal, no?  I get that bigs don't assist, but why are they turning it over so much?

Thats not a lot turnovers for those guys, thats about 1.1 TO a game for each of them.  The assist number is alarmingly low, but we both know they are both black holes and poor post passers.

[MakeItRain]

I'm tempted to say Straw should get more than the 25-27 that _FAN wants to give him, but admittedly that would be pretty reactionary.

[kso_FAN]

I'm tempted to say Straw should get more than the 25-27 that _FAN wants to give him, but admittedly that would be pretty reactionary.

I was too, I actually was leaning toward 30, then cut back a few. I'm starting to buy in on Shane more and more though.

Yeah i probably had Will for too many minutes.   Probably should have Angel at 31 and Will at 30.  I just dont see oscar taking Will's minutes to 25 or under. 

We need more out of both Angel and Will.   Cant have 3 pts in 2 games from Will and Angel needs to step his game up.  He is the 2nd best playe on this team but too many silly mistakes here lately and he has only made 9 of his last 36 3pt shots.   FWIW... he had 9 3pt makes in the 1st 3 games this year and only has 9 since.

Yeah, I cut back on Will too, but he's going to play 30+ more often than not the rest of the year. And we do need more consistency out of both; Angel staying on the floor and Will being a scoring threat/making shots. I do hope oscar is willing to give Tay more minutes if Will continues to shoot as bad as he is right now.

[Belvis Noland]

Because JO needs to be aggressive and because he's a good but not great shot blocker he picks up these fouls.  He relies on height to block shots instead of timing and footwork and because of this its, as _FAN has pointed out, its much easier for people to get into his body.

Right, JO picks up fouls because of his lackluster timing and footwork.  That's my point.  I'm sure he fouls with his body as much as he does his arms, but the point remains that poor footwork and timing will get any big man in trouble. 

JO's aggression should be an attribute, ideally.  But, in reality, it appears that his aggression too often results in silly fouls.  Get to your spot, hold it, stay straight up.  JO and Withey are maybe the only 2 legitimate 7'ers in the League.  Use that height and wingspan and protect the rim.  stop reaching.  JO could be a great shot blocker in this league.  After his growth the past 2 seasons, I expected him to be great.     

I don't think it's a coincidence that SO Gip has taken SR JO's minutes, playing 20mpg and 14 mpg, respectively.  No reason a shot blocker like JO should have regressed back to the minutes he was playing as a SO.  My take?  He's playing undisciplined defense, reducing his minutes.  B/c of his reduced minutes, he tries forcing shots in the offensive.  It's a snowball effect.     

[8manpick]

Because JO needs to be aggressive and because he's a good but not great shot blocker he picks up these fouls.  He relies on height to block shots instead of timing and footwork and because of this its, as _FAN has pointed out, its much easier for people to get into his body.

Right, JO picks up fouls because of his lackluster timing and footwork.  That's my point.  I'm sure he fouls with his body as much as he does his arms, but the point remains that poor footwork and timing will get any big man in trouble. 

JO's aggression should be an attribute, ideally.  But, in reality, it appears that his aggression too often results in silly fouls.  Get to your spot, hold it, stay straight up.  JO and Withey are maybe the only 2 legitimate 7'ers in the League.  Use that height and wingspan and protect the rim.  stop reaching.  JO could be a great shot blocker in this league.  After his growth the past 2 seasons, I expected him to be great.     

I don't think it's a coincidence that SO Gip has taken SR JO's minutes, playing 20mpg and 14 mpg, respectively.  No reason a shot blocker like JO should have regressed back to the minutes he was playing as a SO.  My take?  He's playing undisciplined defense, reducing his minutes.  B/c of his reduced minutes, he tries forcing shots in the offensive.  It's a snowball effect.   

The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things. 

JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards.  When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.

Isaiah Austin is a legit 7 footer also.

[Belvis Noland]

The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things. 

JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards.  When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.

So, apparently this coach values a system where no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket?  Also, Gip and JO have 25 TOs and 10 TOs, respectively.  So, this coach also seems to value more TOs from his big men.

Sarcasm aside, maybe they like Gip's offense more?  He's shown some improvement, especially with that little baby hook.  I dunno.  I still think JO could be playing +10mpg if he were a bit smarter defensively and wasn't forcing shots.     

[CNS]

In discussing the difference in this year's JO to last year's JO, I would say that the subtraction of Jamar being able to help on D is worth looking at.  We play smaller now and makes JO have to be more active to challenge a shot as a big where before, we played with another big more often than not.  Small ball side effect?

[8manpick]

The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things. 

JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards.  When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.

So, apparently this coach values a system where no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket?  Also, Gip and JO have 25 TOs and 10 TOs, respectively.  So, this coach also seems to value more TOs from his big men.

Sarcasm aside, maybe they like Gip's offense more?  He's shown some improvement, especially with that little baby hook.  I dunno.  I still think JO could be playing +10mpg if he were a bit smarter defensively and wasn't forcing shots.     

I really think he values Gip having more traditional post skills on offense over JO's face-up game.

[CNS]

The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things. 

JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards.  When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.

So, apparently this coach values a system where no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket?  Also, Gip and JO have 25 TOs and 10 TOs, respectively.  So, this coach also seems to value more TOs from his big men.

Sarcasm aside, maybe they like Gip's offense more?  He's shown some improvement, especially with that little baby hook.  I dunno.  I still think JO could be playing +10mpg if he were a bit smarter defensively and wasn't forcing shots.     

I really think he values Gip having more traditional post skills on offense over JO's face-up game.

There is no reason we shouldn't be able to work both into the offense. 

[pissclams]

The reason JO's minutes have gone down is it is a different coach that values different things. 

JO's aggression and height changes lots of shots when he is in the game and changes general offensive strategies by opponents, especially guards.  When Gipson is our center, no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket, and that changes when JO is in the game.

So, apparently this coach values a system where no one hesitates to take the ball to the basket?  Also, Gip and JO have 25 TOs and 10 TOs, respectively.  So, this coach also seems to value more TOs from his big men.

Sarcasm aside, maybe they like Gip's offense more?  He's shown some improvement, especially with that little baby hook.  I dunno.  I still think JO could be playing +10mpg if he were a bit smarter defensively and wasn't forcing shots.     

I really think he values Gip having more traditional post skills on offense over JO's face-up game.

i think it's really pretty simple, like most coaches, i think he values players who play well.  JO hasn't been playing that well on either end of the floor. 

[kso_FAN]

In discussing the difference in this year's JO to last year's JO, I would say that the subtraction of Jamar being able to help on D is worth looking at.  We play smaller now and makes JO have to be more active to challenge a shot as a big where before, we played with another big more often than not.  Small ball side effect?

Good observation and I'd guess that's a part of JO's issues.

There is no reason we shouldn't be able to work both into the offense. 

I think we do. Its not like one is used a lot less than the other given their minutes. %Poss and %Shots show this well*.

Gip's %Poss is 23.6% and %Shots is 18.7%. JO is 21.4% and 19.7% respectively. That seems about right for those guys.

*Percentage of possessions used (%Poss): A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.
Percentage of shots taken (%Shots): This is the percentage of a team’s shots taken, while the player is on the court. This is a pretty good proxy for %Poss, and significantly easier to calculate. It is PlayerFGA / (%Min * TeamFGA).

[CNS]

In discussing the difference in this year's JO to last year's JO, I would say that the subtraction of Jamar being able to help on D is worth looking at.  We play smaller now and makes JO have to be more active to challenge a shot as a big where before, we played with another big more often than not.  Small ball side effect?

Good observation and I'd guess that's a part of JO's issues.

There is no reason we shouldn't be able to work both into the offense. 

I think we do. Its not like one is used a lot less than the other given their minutes. %Poss and %Shots show this well*.

Gip's %Poss is 23.6% and %Shots is 18.7%. JO is 21.4% and 19.7% respectively. That seems about right for those guys.

*Percentage of possessions used (%Poss): A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.
Percentage of shots taken (%Shots): This is the percentage of a team’s shots taken, while the player is on the court. This is a pretty good proxy for %Poss, and significantly easier to calculate. It is PlayerFGA / (%Min * TeamFGA).

I meant that JO wanting to play as a face up as well as gip being more of a traditional big.  I was meaning that the two styles should be used in this system, rather than the two players.  I think that not only should they get the minutes, but that they should do so while maximizing the situations that each thrive in. 

[kso_FAN]

Again, I haven't seen that one or the other isn't allowed to use their skill set well in oscar's motion.

Also, the numbers show their games are much more similar than different.

Gip gets 36% of his shots at the rim and 64% of his shots on 2PT jumpers. JO gets 40% of his shots at the rim and 60% of his shots on 2PT jumpers. I'm kind of surprised by that actually, I'm not sure how that is tabulated, but it would indicate that Gip plays face up more than JO. FWIW, their numbers last year were 49% at rim/51% 2PT jump shots for Gip and 58% at rim/42% 2PT jump shots for JO.

The weird number to me is that on JO's 2PT jump shots only 33% are assisted (69% are assisted at the rim). Gip's 2PT jump shots are assisted 75% of the time (61% assisted at the rim).

Observation shows it, but Gip creates more of his own shots at the rim and on his 2PT jumpers he's mainly a catch and shoot guy, so that's not a surprise. But I was a bit surprised that it seems a lot of the time JO is creating his own 2PT jump shot.

[sys]

jhr seldom catches and shoots.  he catches, recatches, surveys, and, if not guarded, shoots.  he's not creating his own shot, his shot is always there.  he's just deciding whether or not to shoot it.