Frank's extension

[mikeycat]

it was posted earlier in this thread.

ku   3M
UT   2M
MU   1.55M
OSU   1.3M
A&M   1.2M
OU   1.05M
CU   800k
NU   800K
KSU   760K
ISU   650k
BU   unkown
TT   unkown (median of big 12 coaching salaries)

the negotiation should have probably started at 1.05m and then moved from there.  That's top half of the league.

From that list, it looks like the median salary is less than $1M.  Jeffrey Martin reported that the Cats initial offer was less than $1M.  I don't think an intial offer in the middle of the conference coach's range is unreasonable or disrespectful.  Of course we don't know how much under $1M the offer was.

No the median isn't under a million.  Four guys make under a millon the coach at CU, the coach at ISU, the coach at NU and Frank.  CU, NU, and ISU have probably been the worst three teams in the league the last few years certainly amongst the bottom 4 teams.  

 KSU has finished in the top 4 the last few years.  Not sure why everyone is having such a hard time grasping why making him an offer to keep in in the bottom 4 was insulting.   I don't think any of the other guys in the bottom 4 will get another contract with the possible excpetion of Bdzellik because CU just doesn't care.  No school that cares about winning should ever give a guy a second contract that low.  Either he proves he's worth more or you can him.  

Actually my calculations above (see link) show that the median was just over 800k until this year when it went to a hair over $1mil.


http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1MjnWshHhQvu6ThgCbKPyQ?feat=directlink

[NYRoyal]

I guess I would have offered $1M to start, intending to end up around $1.25M (if his budget allows it).  But I don't think that an initial offer of $900K is insulting or disrespectful.

That's only $40k more than the figure you said was an "unreasonable low ball" and "non-starter" though  I just think an initial offer of $1M was/is called for.  Both parties know it's going to get there so why risk it. 

Yes, I think there's a fine line between "low" and "too low".  I think an initial offer of $1M makes sense, but I don't think that any and every amount lower than that is necessarily a disrespectful insult.  Both parties certainly do not know what number they'll end up at.  For all we know, Martin wants something over $1.5M or he'll walk when the contract is up.  What we do know is that the higher you start, the higher you'll end up.  And what if Currie's budget ceiling puts him at something like $1.1M.  Then you definitely don't want to start at $1M because you have little room to move.

I would have started at about $1M, but $900K isn't crazy, insulting or foolish.  That represents an 18% raise which is decent for a guy with only 2 1/2 seasons of head coaching on his resume, including one NCAA torney appearance and one NIT appearance.  It's a decent place to start, if a little lower than I would have started.

[steve dave]

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

The hope in that case is similar to Anderson at MU last year; Georgia offered him much more but he was willing to stay b/c of what he was building there, not wanting to start over, and a bit of loyalty.  I think we could ride that for a bit, and I think it will take 3-4 years of success for a sustained bigger program to offer him a lot more.  Until then he'll get bigger budget schools coming after him, but with programs that are probably in bad shape.  But just like no one really knows what is really going on in negotiations, no one knows who wil come after Frank either.

I haven't seen this yet, but people have to realize that X amount of dollars in Manhattan, KS = X amount of dollars somewhere else.

If some East Coast or West Coast school offers Frank X million, we need to figure out what that actually equals in Manhattan, KS.

1.3 million in Manhattan = 1.5 million in Miami. 

1.7 million in Manhattan = 2.0 million in Miami.

It's kind of simplistic thinking, but we need to make sure that fans realize that a perceived "cut" in negotiated salary isn't always a major cut.

I don't think that's a valid argument.  There's a reason why it's more expensive to live in some places vs. others.  It's because people would rather live there.  Any cost of living benefit is offset by quality of living.  Now, that's not to say some people wouldn't rather live in Manhattan, KS v. Miami, FL.  It's just that most wouldn't.

[NYRoyal]

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

The hope in that case is similar to Anderson at MU last year; Georgia offered him much more but he was willing to stay b/c of what he was building there, not wanting to start over, and a bit of loyalty.  I think we could ride that for a bit, and I think it will take 3-4 years of success for a sustained bigger program to offer him a lot more.  Until then he'll get bigger budget schools coming after him, but with programs that are probably in bad shape.  But just like no one really knows what is really going on in negotiations, no one knows who wil come after Frank either.

I haven't seen this yet, but people have to realize that X amount of dollars in Manhattan, KS = X amount of dollars somewhere else.

If some East Coast or West Coast school offers Frank X million, we need to figure out what that actually equals in Manhattan, KS.

1.3 million in Manhattan = 1.5 million in Miami. 

1.7 million in Manhattan = 2.0 million in Miami.

It's kind of simplistic thinking, but we need to make sure that fans realize that a perceived "cut" in negotiated salary isn't always a major cut.

I don't think that's a valid argument.  There's a reason why it's more expensive to live in some places vs. others.  It's because people would rather live there.  Any cost of living benefit is offset by quality of living.  Now, that's not to say some people wouldn't rather live in Manhattan, KS v. Miami, FL.  It's just that most wouldn't.

Definitely.  Any benefit from the lower cost of living is balanced out by the fact that there are certain benefits to living in other places that Manahattan, KS doesn't have.  In short, Manhattan isn't much of a draw for most people (although I loved it).

[Panjandrum]

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

The hope in that case is similar to Anderson at MU last year; Georgia offered him much more but he was willing to stay b/c of what he was building there, not wanting to start over, and a bit of loyalty.  I think we could ride that for a bit, and I think it will take 3-4 years of success for a sustained bigger program to offer him a lot more.  Until then he'll get bigger budget schools coming after him, but with programs that are probably in bad shape.  But just like no one really knows what is really going on in negotiations, no one knows who wil come after Frank either.

I haven't seen this yet, but people have to realize that X amount of dollars in Manhattan, KS = X amount of dollars somewhere else.

If some East Coast or West Coast school offers Frank X million, we need to figure out what that actually equals in Manhattan, KS.

1.3 million in Manhattan = 1.5 million in Miami. 

1.7 million in Manhattan = 2.0 million in Miami.

It's kind of simplistic thinking, but we need to make sure that fans realize that a perceived "cut" in negotiated salary isn't always a major cut.

I don't think that's a valid argument.  There's a reason why it's more expensive to live in some places vs. others.  It's because people would rather live there.  Any cost of living benefit is offset by quality of living.  Now, that's not to say some people wouldn't rather live in Manhattan, KS v. Miami, FL.  It's just that most wouldn't.

Agreed, but if he likes living in Manhattan, then it makes it valid.  Maybe?

 

[steve dave]

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

The hope in that case is similar to Anderson at MU last year; Georgia offered him much more but he was willing to stay b/c of what he was building there, not wanting to start over, and a bit of loyalty.  I think we could ride that for a bit, and I think it will take 3-4 years of success for a sustained bigger program to offer him a lot more.  Until then he'll get bigger budget schools coming after him, but with programs that are probably in bad shape.  But just like no one really knows what is really going on in negotiations, no one knows who wil come after Frank either.

I haven't seen this yet, but people have to realize that X amount of dollars in Manhattan, KS = X amount of dollars somewhere else.

If some East Coast or West Coast school offers Frank X million, we need to figure out what that actually equals in Manhattan, KS.

1.3 million in Manhattan = 1.5 million in Miami. 

1.7 million in Manhattan = 2.0 million in Miami.

It's kind of simplistic thinking, but we need to make sure that fans realize that a perceived "cut" in negotiated salary isn't always a major cut.

I don't think that's a valid argument.  There's a reason why it's more expensive to live in some places vs. others.  It's because people would rather live there.  Any cost of living benefit is offset by quality of living.  Now, that's not to say some people wouldn't rather live in Manhattan, KS v. Miami, FL.  It's just that most wouldn't.

Agreed, but if he likes living in Manhattan, then it makes it valid.  Maybe?

 

Sure, but what if he LOVES Laramie, WY 

[Panjandrum]

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

The hope in that case is similar to Anderson at MU last year; Georgia offered him much more but he was willing to stay b/c of what he was building there, not wanting to start over, and a bit of loyalty.  I think we could ride that for a bit, and I think it will take 3-4 years of success for a sustained bigger program to offer him a lot more.  Until then he'll get bigger budget schools coming after him, but with programs that are probably in bad shape.  But just like no one really knows what is really going on in negotiations, no one knows who wil come after Frank either.

I haven't seen this yet, but people have to realize that X amount of dollars in Manhattan, KS = X amount of dollars somewhere else.

If some East Coast or West Coast school offers Frank X million, we need to figure out what that actually equals in Manhattan, KS.

1.3 million in Manhattan = 1.5 million in Miami. 

1.7 million in Manhattan = 2.0 million in Miami.

It's kind of simplistic thinking, but we need to make sure that fans realize that a perceived "cut" in negotiated salary isn't always a major cut.

I don't think that's a valid argument.  There's a reason why it's more expensive to live in some places vs. others.  It's because people would rather live there.  Any cost of living benefit is offset by quality of living.  Now, that's not to say some people wouldn't rather live in Manhattan, KS v. Miami, FL.  It's just that most wouldn't.

Agreed, but if he likes living in Manhattan, then it makes it valid.  Maybe?

 

Sure, but what if he LOVES Laramie, WY 

And why wouldn't he?  It's gorgeous.

 

[Legore]

The cost of living argument also gets more and more mute when you get into higher incomes.  The cost of living makes a big difference for somebody making 80K in Manhattan vs. making 80K in Miami.  But when you get up in the millions most of your income is disposable meaning you don't really spend it anyway.  

Sure housing is more but you only need one house and even though the house on the East coast costs more it probably ends up being a better investment long term anyway.  Prince paid a lot for his house in Manhattan and now he can't sell it probably wouldn't have that trouble in a bigger city.  A bar of soap may cost more too but how many bars of soap does a guy need to buy?  

[0709CatGrad]

An idea after reading the cost of living talk.  Work into the contract use of the Universitie's jet? say X miles allowance for him and the fam?

[The42Yardstick]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

[Johnny Wichita]

Great idea!  We could also do free milk shakes at Grizzly's!

[Johnny Wichita]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

First guy:  This!

Second guy:  That!

First guy:  Not that!

Second guy:  Not not that!  

First guy:  That but not that like that!

[ksu_FAN]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

First guy:  This!

Second guy:  That!

First guy:  Not that!

Second guy:  Not not that!  

First guy:  That but not that like that!

It is called a "message" board for a reason. 

[KSUFansPoster495028]

can this thread be moved to Wabash Station? THX

[Bookcat]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

your not helping.

dambit...neither am I.

lets just say this is a topic where everyone has an opinion and wants to get this guy signed on ASAP. The natives are restless/angry.

[The42Yardstick]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

your not helping.

dambit...neither am I.

lets just say this is a topic where everyone has an opinion and wants to get this guy signed on ASAP. The natives are restless/angry.

Ahhh. Texas State is having a similar issue with our head coach in football. He just got us to two straight winning seasons since we were D-2 in the 80's, but they're taking forever on the contract stuff. We just lost our best assistant (who is a Texas State grad) to one of our chief rivals in UTSA, but he only took the same position, offensive coordinator. UTSA won't even field a team until September 2011. Now lots of people think we're not bringing back our head coach because of this...it's a mess

Anyway, I sympathize.

[sonofdaxjones]

Just get it done Currie.  You can do it without painting yourself into high dollar guaranteed buyouts.  You can structure a contract that has stair step buyout clauses that increase over time . . . because if Frank keeps his job that means his doing well right??   You can structure a contract that his stair step pay increases that coincide with performance as well as performance bonuses. 

You're just being a chicken$hit about it and I hereby dub thee Timmy Weiser Jr.  (you'll have a chance to redeem yourself) until further notice.

[JTKSU]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

your not helping.

dambit...neither am I.

lets just say this is a topic where everyone has an opinion and wants to get this guy signed on ASAP. The natives are restless/angry.

Ahhh. Texas State is having a similar issue with our head coach in football. He just got us to two straight winning seasons since we were D-2 in the 80's, but they're taking forever on the contract stuff. We just lost our best assistant (who is a Texas State grad) to one of our chief rivals in UTSA, but he only took the same position, offensive coordinator. UTSA won't even field a team until September 2011. Now lots of people think we're not bringing back our head coach because of this...it's a mess

Anyway, I sympathize.

[Winters]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

your not helping.

dambit...neither am I.




lets just say this is a topic where everyone has an opinion and wants to get this guy signed on ASAP. The natives are restless/angry.

Ahhh. Texas State is having a similar issue with our head coach in football. He just got us to two straight winning seasons since we were D-2 in the 80's, but they're taking forever on the contract stuff. We just lost our best assistant (who is a Texas State grad) to one of our chief rivals in UTSA, but he only took the same position, offensive coordinator. UTSA won't even field a team until September 2011. Now lots of people think we're not bringing back our head coach because of this...it's a mess

Anyway, I sympathize.

Sorry to hear this man

[The42Yardstick]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

your not helping.

dambit...neither am I.

lets just say this is a topic where everyone has an opinion and wants to get this guy signed on ASAP. The natives are restless/angry.

Ahhh. Texas State is having a similar issue with our head coach in football. He just got us to two straight winning seasons since we were D-2 in the 80's, but they're taking forever on the contract stuff. We just lost our best assistant (who is a Texas State grad) to one of our chief rivals in UTSA, but he only took the same position, offensive coordinator. UTSA won't even field a team until September 2011. Now lots of people think we're not bringing back our head coach because of this...it's a mess

Anyway, I sympathize.

We're 1-aa. What the fack are ya gonna do

You do know that Kansas State is our main rival tho right

[JTKSU]

After not reading all 16 pages, someone plz tell me how this got to 16 pages. Thx


/message board asshole

your not helping.

dambit...neither am I.

lets just say this is a topic where everyone has an opinion and wants to get this guy signed on ASAP. The natives are restless/angry.

Ahhh. Texas State is having a similar issue with our head coach in football. He just got us to two straight winning seasons since we were D-2 in the 80's, but they're taking forever on the contract stuff. We just lost our best assistant (who is a Texas State grad) to one of our chief rivals in UTSA, but he only took the same position, offensive coordinator. UTSA won't even field a team until September 2011. Now lots of people think we're not bringing back our head coach because of this...it's a mess

Anyway, I sympathize.

We're 1-aa. What the fack are ya gonna do

You do know that Kansas State is our main rival tho right

You're going to have to get in line with all the other teams vying for a possible future rivals status.  It's growing by the day, but you may be able to lock up an (honorary) D1-AA spot if you really bring it.

[BigCat]

jfc people are talking about cost of living now, we've hit rock bottom. why doesn't Currie offer Frank $500/mo in petty cash because that's about the only new contract people act like we can afford. Maybe get him a new pair of boots and some gift certs to Applebees. &@#%

[5601js]

I've tried to stay up to date with this thread since it's started, but I haven't seen any info regarding when this offer was made to Frank.

I've seen speculation that it may have happened before the season, but I don't believe I saw JMart allude one way or another when it happened. JMart, do you have an idea when this $40K raise was offered to him?

My point is that if it was offered to him before the season, then I'm much less concerned than if has been within the last month or two. However, if Frank really was offended, then I'm more inclined to think it was more recent than former.

[Bookcat]

Just love how the Ron Prince debacle is making John Currie timid about awarding Frank Martin an extension.



Just epically hilarious fail.

[KSUFansPoster495028]

you Wabash Station South losers.

  = 

[KSUFansPoster495028]

thanks for merging my thread FITZ and d__scott. say hi to Kellis for me!