Frank's extension

[NYRoyal]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

That's a good point, but in a contract negotiation, what kind of initial offer shows respect and what kind of offer respresents disrespect?  Is anything less than $1M per year disrespectful?  If so, how and why do we draw the line there?

I think it's pretty easy to do so in this instance.  You have 12 coaches in the conference.  Any offer you make will immediately tell the coach where you think they stand.  The coach's demand will tell you where he thinks he stands.  Any demand above the top 2 is ridiculous.  Any offer below the bottom 4 is ridiculous.  I think those provide respectable starting points for negotiations.

That makes sense.  How much do the bottom 4 coaches make?

  I don't think we ever got a full updated list.  That's got to be out on the interwebs somewhere. 

Yeah, I hope someone can find the list of big 12 men's BB coaches salaries. 

Unfortunately, a lot of people in this thread have basically jumped to the conclusion that Currie has disrespected Martin in the contract negotiations despite 1) not knowing how much Currie has offered, and 2) not knowing where that ranks among Big 12 coaches.

[Jeffrey_Martin]

So far ALL of the speculation seems to be sourced back to JMArt's post here.  A single source.   While typically he has been reliable, he is no longer plugged into KSU as he once was.

You're apparently plugged in enough to know that I'm not plugged in anymore? Or, as I once was? Look, I still stand by what I heard. I also said the second part of my initial post was conjecture. Nothing I said was iron-clad, nor did I represent myself as a current beat writer of K-State athletics. I was passing along some information that, let's see, just happened to fall into my lap because, obviously, I'm not as plugged into KSU as I once was.

[ksu_FAN]

So far ALL of the speculation seems to be sourced back to JMArt's post here.  A single source.   While typically he has been reliable, he is no longer plugged into KSU as he once was.

You're apparently plugged in enough to know that I'm not plugged in anymore? Or, as I once was? Look, I still stand by what I heard. I also said the second part of my initial post was conjecture. Nothing I said was iron-clad, nor did I represent myself as a current beat writer of K-State athletics. I was passing along some information that, let's see, just happened to fall into my lap because, obviously, I'm not as plugged into KSU as I once was.

J-Mart, thanks for sticking around.  And any reasonable fan realizes you've got good information. 

[steve dave]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

That's a good point, but in a contract negotiation, what kind of initial offer shows respect and what kind of offer respresents disrespect?  Is anything less than $1M per year disrespectful?  If so, how and why do we draw the line there?

I think it's pretty easy to do so in this instance.  You have 12 coaches in the conference.  Any offer you make will immediately tell the coach where you think they stand.  The coach's demand will tell you where he thinks he stands.  Any demand above the top 2 is ridiculous.  Any offer below the bottom 4 is ridiculous.  I think those provide respectable starting points for negotiations.

That makes sense.  How much do the bottom 4 coaches make?

  I don't think we ever got a full updated list.  That's got to be out on the interwebs somewhere. 

Yeah, I hope someone can find the list of big 12 men's BB coaches salaries. 

Unfortunately, a lot of people in this thread have basically jumped to the conclusion that Currie has disrespected Martin in the contract negotiations despite 1) not knowing how much Currie has offered, and 2) not knowing where that ranks among Big 12 coaches.

Just curious, what would you offer him initially?  And, assuming the rumors are true that he was offered a $100k raise, what do you think of that (if that's not what you would have offered to open).

[Rick Daris]

at this point in time, all evidence from completely unrelated sources (mike decourcy, jmart, Keitz-lol) points directly to kstate being purposefully cheap and trying to offer unreasonable amounts of money to retain martin and staff. where are the sources saying that the kstate offer wasn't a lowball one? did i miss them? are they in a different thread?

also, lol at dax trying to insinuate every other post that he's smarter and has experience then other people have which somehow qualifies his opinion as a more valid one. l o freaking l. you are so important dax. pffffft.

[catzacker]

it was posted earlier in this thread.

ku   3M
UT   2M
MU   1.55M
OSU   1.3M
A&M   1.2M
OU   1.05M
CU   800k
NU   800K
KSU   760K
ISU   650k
BU   unkown
TT   unkown (median of big 12 coaching salaries)

the negotiation should have probably started at 1.05m and then moved from there.  That's top half of the league.

[NYRoyal]

Just curious, what would you offer him initially?  And, assuming the rumors are true that he was offered a $100k raise, what do you think of that (if that's not what you would have offered to open).

I'd need more information, including the salaries of other Big 12 coaches.  I'd also need to know how much money I had to spend.  I don't know what Currie's budgetary constraints are.  But a $100K raise sounds like an unreasonable lowball to me.  It's a non-starter.  I hope that isn't what he offered.

[steve dave]

Self   3M
Barnes   2M
Anderson   1.55M
Ford   1.3M
Turgeon   1.2M
Knight 1.2M
Capel   1.05M
Drew   > 1M (can't find anything other than someone confirming it's more than 1M per)
BzDeliackigkcht   800k
Doc   800K
Frank   760K
McNeck   650k

Here's what I've been able to come up with but I don't know if this needs updating with any newer contracts.  I think, based on this, offering him less than $1M is pretty disrespectful and I think him demanding more than 1.5M is pretty ridiculous.  So, if I was either party I would start with a demand of $1.5 and I'd start with an offer of $1M.  Should probably end up between $1.1M-$1.4M (I know, pretty broad)

[ksu_FAN]

Self   3M
Barnes   2M
Anderson   1.55M
Ford   1.3M
Turgeon   1.2M
Knight 1.2M
Capel   1.05M
Drew   > 1M (can't find anything other than someone confirming it's more than 1M per)
BzDeliackigkcht   800k
Doc   800K
Frank   760K
McNeck   650k

Here's what I've been able to come up with but I don't know if this needs updating with any newer contracts.  I think, based on this, offering him less than $1M is pretty disrespectful and I think him demanding more than 1.5M is pretty ridiculous.  So, if I was either party I would start with a demand of $1.5 and I'd start with an offer of $1M.  Should probably end up between $1.1-$1.4.  

Yeah, he should be in the Knight/Turgeon/Ford area. 

Baylor is private, so info on coaching salaries is hard to come by.

[NYRoyal]

it was posted earlier in this thread.

ku   3M
UT   2M
MU   1.55M
OSU   1.3M
A&M   1.2M
OU   1.05M
CU   800k
NU   800K
KSU   760K
ISU   650k
BU   unkown
TT   unkown (median of big 12 coaching salaries)

the negotiation should have probably started at 1.05m and then moved from there.  That's top half of the league.

From that list, it looks like the median salary is less than $1M.  Jeffrey Martin reported that the Cats initial offer was less than $1M.  I don't think an intial offer in the middle of the conference coach's range is unreasonable or disrespectful.  Of course we don't know how much under $1M the offer was.

[sys]

considering that the only coaches in the big 12 not named frank martin that aren't over 1 million are on track to be fired...  it's a good ballpark for where the offer goes from appreciated to insulting.

[steve dave]

it was posted earlier in this thread.

ku   3M
UT   2M
MU   1.55M
OSU   1.3M
A&M   1.2M
OU   1.05M
CU   800k
NU   800K
KSU   760K
ISU   650k
BU   unkown
TT   unkown (median of big 12 coaching salaries)

the negotiation should have probably started at 1.05m and then moved from there.  That's top half of the league.

From that list, it looks like the median salary is less than $1M.  Jeffrey Martin reported that the Cats initial offer was less than $1M.  I don't think an intial offer in the middle of the conference coach's range is unreasonable or disrespectful.  Of course we don't know how much under $1M the offer was.

See updated list in my post.

[steve dave]

Self   3M
Barnes   2M
Anderson   1.55M
Ford   1.3M
Turgeon   1.2M
Knight 1.2M
Capel   1.05M
Drew   > 1M (can't find anything other than someone confirming it's more than 1M per)
McDermott 850K
BzDelik   800k
Doc   800K
Frank   760K

Updated, McDermott actually will make 850K this year.

[chum1]

Get me a list of Mountain West coach salaries.  I have an idea.

[Rick Daris]

Self   3M
Barnes   2M
Anderson   1.55M
Ford   1.3M
Turgeon   1.2M
Knight 1.2M
Capel   1.05M
Drew   > 1M (can't find anything other than someone confirming it's more than 1M per)
BzDeliackigkcht   800k
McDermott 850K
Doc   800K
Frank   760K

Updated, McDermott actually will make 850K this year.

i do think that it's safe to assume drew is more than one million given the fact that the woman's coach at baylor makes a million. no way that they would pay the womans coach more than the mens. that means that anything less than 1.0 million would've still put him in the bottom four. what an insult. why would they insult him like this?  

[WildcatNkilt]

Lets leave it alone.  I know this is going to be hard for us today given that it is a hot topic and we all want to talk about it.  What can we really do at this point besides bitch and complain?  Donate money? (Yes, we should all do this by the way) Threaten JC? 

Since we are not Frank, John, or Frank's agent we really have no &@#%ing clue what has been said.  Everything up to this point is speculation, and it's starting to make us look bad.  All 610 and 810 were talking about yesterday is how &@#%ing retarded we are.  Both stations referenced the "websites," and thats where they took most of their talking material from. 

Lurking in the forums and beating a dead horse is not going to give Fank an extension any faster.  It will however give the opposing fanbase entertainment. 

I know this thread is  and all but our bitching is giving us bad press and not helping the situation at all.  Having more of a snowball affect that probably won't stop til' the end of the season. 

Frank will get his extension, and if not he will leave.  If he leaves because our AD is a cheapass, then JC most likely won't be our AD for long.  Only thing we can do is wait it out, enjoy FM and the boys kicking ass, and hope our AD makes good decisions (once again, donating to the athletic department will help).

Once again,  so flame away.

[NYRoyal]

I guess I would have offered $1M to start, intending to end up around $1.25M (if his budget allows it).  But I don't think that an initial offer of $900K is insulting or disrespectful.

[mikeycat]

Best post on the issue.

[Belvis Noland]

Royal, you've got to understand that the extent of negotiation experience for most of the people on this board is either wheeling and dealing for an extra sour cream at Chipotle, or hammering out a "who cooks the Totino's" agreement with a room mate.

This is very true.  And very telling. 

[mikeycat]

Here is a spreadsheet I just prepared showing the coaching salaries of the Big 12 for the last 3 years.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/1MjnWshHhQvu6ThgCbKPyQ?feat=directlink

[BeaumontCat1%]

Self   3M
Barnes   2M
Anderson   1.55M
Ford   1.3M
Turgeon   1.2M
Knight 1.2M
Capel   1.05M
Drew   > 1M (can't find anything other than someone confirming it's more than 1M per)
McDermott 850K
BzDelik   800k
Doc   800K
Frank   760K

Updated, McDermott actually will make 850K this year.

JFC, we're lucky Frank is still at KSU as it is.

[NYRoyal]

Self   3M
Barnes   2M
Anderson   1.55M
Ford   1.3M
Turgeon   1.2M
Knight 1.2M
Capel   1.05M
Drew   > 1M (can't find anything other than someone confirming it's more than 1M per)
McDermott 850K
BzDelik   800k
Doc   800K
Frank   760K

Updated, McDermott actually will make 850K this year.

JFC, we're lucky Frank is still at KSU as it is.

What kind of raise did you think he deserved after last year's NIT season? 

[BeaumontCat1%]

Self   3M
Barnes   2M
Anderson   1.55M
Ford   1.3M
Turgeon   1.2M
Knight 1.2M
Capel   1.05M
Drew   > 1M (can't find anything other than someone confirming it's more than 1M per)
McDermott 850K
BzDelik   800k
Doc   800K
Frank   760K

Updated, McDermott actually will make 850K this year.

JFC, we're lucky Frank is still at KSU as it is.

What kind of raise did you think he deserved after last year's NIT season? 

At least enough to pay him more than those 3 turds just above him.

[steve dave]

I guess I would have offered $1M to start, intending to end up around $1.25M (if his budget allows it).  But I don't think that an initial offer of $900K is insulting or disrespectful.

That's only $40k more than the figure you said was an "unreasonable low ball" and "non-starter" though  I just think an initial offer of $1M was/is called for.  Both parties know it's going to get there so why risk it. 

[Legore]

it was posted earlier in this thread.

ku   3M
UT   2M
MU   1.55M
OSU   1.3M
A&M   1.2M
OU   1.05M
CU   800k
NU   800K
KSU   760K
ISU   650k
BU   unkown
TT   unkown (median of big 12 coaching salaries)

the negotiation should have probably started at 1.05m and then moved from there.  That's top half of the league.

From that list, it looks like the median salary is less than $1M.  Jeffrey Martin reported that the Cats initial offer was less than $1M.  I don't think an intial offer in the middle of the conference coach's range is unreasonable or disrespectful.  Of course we don't know how much under $1M the offer was.

No the median isn't under a million.  Four guys make under a millon the coach at CU, the coach at ISU, the coach at NU and Frank.  CU, NU, and ISU have probably been the worst three teams in the league the last few years certainly amongst the bottom 4 teams.  

 KSU has finished in the top 4 the last few years.  Not sure why everyone is having such a hard time grasping why making him an offer to keep in in the bottom 4 was insulting.   I don't think any of the other guys in the bottom 4 will get another contract with the possible excpetion of Bdzellik because CU just doesn't care.  No school that cares about winning should ever give a guy a second contract that low.  Either he proves he's worth more or you can him.  

[Belvis Noland]

at this point in time, all evidence from completely unrelated sources (mike decourcy, jmart, Keitz-lol) points directly to kstate being purposefully cheap and trying to offer unreasonable amounts of money to retain martin and staff. where are the sources saying that the kstate offer wasn't a lowball one? did i miss them? are they in a different thread?

There isn't any evidence to the contary.  And, I think that is precisely the point.  

The only people with any "real" knowledge on the point have been completely silent:  Curry, Martin, McGuffin, Sigmon, Martin's Agent, Martin's Lawyer, the University's Lawyers, and Tank's Bulldog.  

I don't disbelieve J-Mart, but I've heard enough rumors over the past 10 years regarding KSU athletics that I take most "insider knoweldge" commentary with a grain of salt.  "It's Patterson" comes to mind.  And Fitz is about as "connected" as they come.  No?  

[Andy]

initially i overeacted to this news (not on here though) but the more i think about it the more I think that ADJC was just redoing the contract so that it was a contract done under his admin with his stamp on it and his own wording.  I dont think ADJC wanted to mess with the actual $$ at that point (and as many have pointed out, Frank still had a lot to prove after only 2 yrs).  I mean, it would seem to fit with what he did with Snyder (and to a lesser extent Patterson and Hill though I dont really know much about their contracts other than i'm sure Hill deserved somewhat of a raise). 

the lowball offer I dont think was meant as a longterm solution if Frank ended up being really successful.  I fully believe Currie would have or will up Martin's deal if we end up with a super season whether Martin took the lowball offer or not.  I'm starting to think maybe the Martin camp has taken this the wrong way or else there is some serious disconnect in how the 2 sides are communicating. 

only at KSU though could something like this get way overblown.  I'm now in the camp of saving my meltdown for if/when Frank leaves.

Get it ready then.  Why would Martin agree to a lowball offer and put his faith that 1.5mil is going to come when he'd have to pay a buyout to leave if it did not?

well none of us know how many years the offer was for or what a buyout would be.  like i was suggesting it could have just been a re-write of the current contract.  but seriously, if Frank goes on to win the big 12 and make a deep tournament run, you're kidding yourself if you don't think we step up to the plate and give him the money he deserves, big buyout or no big buy out and even after just re-signing a deal prior to this season.  JMO.

[Belvis Noland]

offering him less than $1M is pretty disrespectful and I think him demanding more than 1.5M is pretty ridiculous.  So, if I was either party I would start with a demand of $1.5 and I'd start with an offer of $1M.  Should probably end up between $1.1M-$1.4M (I know, pretty broad)

+1

[WildcatNkilt]

http://www.ksufans.com/forums/index.php?topic=49667.0

I agree with this guy.

[Panjandrum]

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

The hope in that case is similar to Anderson at MU last year; Georgia offered him much more but he was willing to stay b/c of what he was building there, not wanting to start over, and a bit of loyalty.  I think we could ride that for a bit, and I think it will take 3-4 years of success for a sustained bigger program to offer him a lot more.  Until then he'll get bigger budget schools coming after him, but with programs that are probably in bad shape.  But just like no one really knows what is really going on in negotiations, no one knows who wil come after Frank either.

I haven't seen this yet, but people have to realize that X amount of dollars in Manhattan, KS = X amount of dollars somewhere else.

If some East Coast or West Coast school offers Frank X million, we need to figure out what that actually equals in Manhattan, KS.

1.3 million in Manhattan = 1.5 million in Miami. 

1.7 million in Manhattan = 2.0 million in Miami.

It's kind of simplistic thinking, but we need to make sure that fans realize that a perceived "cut" in negotiated salary isn't always a major cut.