Frank's extension

[michigancat]

Sticking point:  mid-major sized budget.  We could DOD the Mountan West, people.  Think about it.

i would love to DOD the Mountain West but you need to think before you speak.  BYU?  UNLV?  NM?  

IMO, the only alternative is CUSA, and they have all those sexy urban schools (Houston, Memphis, SMU) and would just kill us in recruiting.  At least MWC has a couple garbage locations that we could actually compete against.  (Ft. Collins, Laramie, etc...)

[ksu_FAN]

Without a significant buyout, we should all expect Frank to leave soon.  He's going to be on the short-list for every D1 school that has or will have a job opening.

The sad part is that when he leaves, I'm sure fans will blame Currie, even though the money he'll get from the next school will be significantly more than K-State could possibly afford.

I agree that no matter what, the money he can probably get elsewhere will be more than here.  And if the school is big enough, I doubt that any buyout will matter either.  I just don't see a significant buyout as a big deal other than at least giving K-State something to start with to look for another coach.  Don't get me wrong, we should make it as big as we can, but I also don't think its a hill Currie can die on in negotiating the contract.

[sonofdaxjones]

Royal, you've got to understand that the extent of negotiation experience for most of the people on this board is either wheeling and dealing for an extra sour cream at Chipotle, or hammering out a "who cooks the Totino's" agreement with a room mate.

[NYRoyal]

Without a significant buyout, we should all expect Frank to leave soon.  He's going to be on the short-list for every D1 school that has or will have a job opening.

The sad part is that when he leaves, I'm sure fans will blame Currie, even though the money he'll get from the next school will be significantly more than K-State could possibly afford.

I agree that no matter what, the money he can probably get elsewhere will be more than here.  And if the school is big enough, I doubt that any buyout will matter either.  I just don't see a significant buyout as a big deal other than at least giving K-State something to start with to look for another coach.  Don't get me wrong, we should make it as big as we can, but I also don't think its a hill Currie can die on in negotiating the contract.

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

[NYRoyal]

Royal, you've got to understand that the extent of negotiation experience for most of the people on this board is either wheeling and dealing for an extra sour cream at Chipotle, or hammering out a "who cooks the Totino's" agreement with a room mate.

Zing!

well said

[steve dave]

 

[Johnny Wichita]

I want to thank Jeffrey Martin for his inside information on the negotiations over Frank Martin's potential contract extension.  This information gave rise to a firestorm of complaints and condemnations from Wildcat fans.  But I want to point out that we don't really know what is going in the negotiations.  I have no doubt that Jeffrey Martin is connected, but he's not in the negotiations.  He's receiving his information second or third-hand.  I'm sure both sides have exchanged numbers (dollar figures and years, perhaps more than that), perhaps several times.  While it is easy to say, "just give Martin a nice raise" or "give the man the money he deserves" it isn't that easy. 

For instance, let's say that John Currie and KSU are willing to give Martin a multi-year deal worth $1.5M per year.  Most Wildcat fans would say that is both fair and appropriate.  But that can't be their first offer.  If Currie faxed a 4-year/$6M offer to Martin's agent, do you think they'd just accept?  Of course not.  They are going to counter with a higher number, undoubtedly something like 4/$8M.  My point is that whatever K-State offers instantly becomes the contract floor and that what is eventually agreed to will be higher than that.  This does not mean that K-State should necessarily start with a ridiculous, insulting lowball offer.  That might have been what they did.  Maybe.  We don't know for sure.  But contract negotiations are about meeting in the middle.  Neither side gets everything they want.

But I don't think this is just about money.  It seemed like the prevailing tone in the comments on Jeffrey Martin's post was that K-State is being cheap and if they'd just offer a nice raise, Martin would sign and stay at K-State for many years.  There are several assumptions and leaps of faith there which might not be warranted.  The sticking point in the negotiation might not be salary or years.  Certainly they are at issue, but I'm sure K-State wants a contract that actually keeps Martin in Manhattan.  Let's take a ride in the Wayback Machine to 1990.  Lon Kruger had just led the Wildcats to their fourth NCAA torney appearance in his four years as head coach (including an Elite Eight appearance).  Kruger then thanked the University for their money and the fans for their support by leaving for the University of Florida.  Does Martin want to stay at K-State?  I'm sure many fans would say, "As long as he gets the right money and respect from the University and support from the fans, I'm sure he would."  First, that's just a guess (or wishcasting).  Second, even if K-State gives Martin a big raise, he can still get more money and more prestige from a school with a bigger name and deeper pockets.

What I'm suggesting is that one of the big sticking points in the negotiation might be some sort of penalty or buyout that Martin would have to pay if he leaves before the contract is up.  If Martin has his sights set on using K-State as a resume-builder so that he can move onward and upward when he gets a good offer elsewhere, then he's going to want little or no such penalty/buyout.  K-State, on the other hand, would want it to be significant.

I don't think this contract negotiation is a simple good guy (Martin) vs. bad guy (Currie) situation.  Martin may well be looking for the contract which is easiest to get out of, regardless of the salary involved.

Not all negotiations go like this.  Many times when competent people are involved, a fair price is offered and accepted with very little haggling over the details.  Everyone makes it seem like all negotiations are always some form of a grueling chess match

We're talking about a multi-million dollar contract negotiation.  Do you think that is ever done with one offer followed by acceptance?  If so, you are fooling yourself.  There is ALWAYS a lot of back and forth with offers and counteroffers.

I don't think that you can say it ALWAYS happens this way or that way.  

[ksu_FAN]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

[NYRoyal]

I don't think that you can say it ALWAYS happens this way or that way.  

Ok, how about 99+% of the time.

[steve dave]

I don't think that you can say it ALWAYS happens this way or that way.  

Ok, how about 99+% of the time.

Agreed.  But, this isn't like a bodily injury settlement negotiation where outrageous numbers are thrown about by each side.  These people have to work with each other and hopefully have a very good relationship after this contract is signed.  It makes sense to keep demands/offers in the realm of the reasonable.  Maybe they have been.  Maybe not.  

[Pete]

Was it this board, or another, where it was being reported that ku, NU and MU are all going to the Big 10?

In any event, I believe we have what it takes to really succeed in the Valley.

[NYRoyal]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

[NYRoyal]

Was it this board, or another, where it was being reported that ku, NU and MU are all going to the Big 10?

I don't believe that for a second.

[Pete]

Was it this board, or another, where it was being reported that ku, NU and MU are all going to the Big 10?

I don't believe that for a second.

Gun to my head, I say Mizzou will go.  If I were the Big 10, I'd take ku and NU as well.

[ksu_FAN]

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

The hope in that case is similar to Anderson at MU last year; Georgia offered him much more but he was willing to stay b/c of what he was building there, not wanting to start over, and a bit of loyalty.  I think we could ride that for a bit, and I think it will take 3-4 years of success for a sustained bigger program to offer him a lot more.  Until then he'll get bigger budget schools coming after him, but with programs that are probably in bad shape.  But just like no one really knows what is really going on in negotiations, no one knows who wil come after Frank either.

[NYRoyal]

Was it this board, or another, where it was being reported that ku, NU and MU are all going to the Big 10?

I don't believe that for a second.

Gun to my head, I say Mizzou will go.  If I were the Big 10, I'd take ku and NU as well.

Sure, it is possible that one Big 12 team could jump.  And the Big 10 would probably  like to have ku and NU as well.  But ku and NU would have to have an incentive to go.  The only incentive would be a better revenue sharing deal.  And I doubt the Big 10 schools would be willing to offer such a sweet deal just so they can go up to 14 teams.  I think they are motivated to do what it takes to add one school, but not more than that.  If Mizzou goes, the Big 12 will just add someone else.

[Johnny Wichita]

I don't think that you can say it ALWAYS happens this way or that way.  

Ok, how about 99+% of the time.

With a law degree you probably have more experience in this than I do.  I have zero experience with contract negotiations regarding college coaches.  Maybe you do and can make a statement like that with certainty.  I have seen many negotiations in other realms and have seen them play out where someone wants to buy something and they are educated enough to know what something is worth.  They come in and buy it as opposed to haggling and playing the "if I bid this price, they will counter at this, and we can settle at this" game.  My point is that if we wanted to keep him, I think we could make him an offer that he would be more or less happy with as opposed to giving him a low ball offer on the premise that he is going to counter at some unreasonably high number and we would have to split the difference.  

[NYRoyal]

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

The hope in that case is similar to Anderson at MU last year; Georgia offered him much more but he was willing to stay b/c of what he was building there, not wanting to start over, and a bit of loyalty.  I think we could ride that for a bit, and I think it will take 3-4 years of success for a sustained bigger program to offer him a lot more.  Until then he'll get bigger budget schools coming after him, but with programs that are probably in bad shape.  But just like no one really knows what is really going on in negotiations, no one knows who wil come after Frank either.

Good points.  I'll try to stay optimistic.  I was an undergrad when Kruger left.  It left me with a bad taste in my mouth.  From that point on, I expected any good KSU coach to leave for greener pastures.  I expect that of Snyder and he didn't.  So there's that.

[catzacker]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

[steve dave]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

fantastic post imo

[ksu_FAN]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

fantastic post imo

Yeah, excellent post by Zacker. 

[pissclams]

I don't think that you can say it ALWAYS happens this way or that way.  

Ok, how about 99+% of the time.

i would also add that 99% of the people in this thread don't have a clue what they're talking about.  it seems that you and dax fall into the lucky 1%.  i've negotiated contracts worth far more than the one martin will eventually sign with K-State.  never, not once, did I begin with a "fair" offer.  that's just plain stupid. 

LOL @ offending someone during a multiyear, multimillion dollar contract negotiation

[mikeycat]

Was it this board, or another, where it was being reported that ku, NU and MU are all going to the Big 10?

I don't believe that for a second.

Gun to my head, I say Mizzou will go.  If I were the Big 10, I'd take ku and NU as well.

Mizzou has said they are not going.   And the Big 10 wouldn't touch NU or ku.   They didn't really want MU, they were just a fallback plan based on geography.

[NYRoyal]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

That's a good point, but in a contract negotiation, what kind of initial offer shows respect and what kind of offer respresents disrespect?  Is anything less than $1M per year disrespectful?  If so, how and why do we draw the line there?

[steve dave]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

That's a good point, but in a contract negotiation, what kind of initial offer shows respect and what kind of offer respresents disrespect?  Is anything less than $1M per year disrespectful?  If so, how and why do we draw the line there?

I think it's pretty easy to do so in this instance.  You have 12 coaches in the conference.  Any offer you make will immediately tell the coach where you think they stand.  The coach's demand will tell you where he thinks he stands.  Any demand above the top 2 is ridiculous.  Any offer below the bottom 4 is ridiculous.  I think those provide respectable starting points for negotiations.

[Rick Daris]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

fantastic post imo

Yeah, excellent post by Zacker. 

f^ck each and every one of you guys. i've more/less been saying this exact same thing for the past 13 pages.

[steve dave]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

fantastic post imo

Yeah, excellent post by Zacker. 

f^ck each and every one of you guys. i've more/less been saying this exact same thing for the past 13 pages.

zacker says it prettier 

[Rick Daris]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

fantastic post imo

Yeah, excellent post by Zacker. 

f^ck each and every one of you guys. i've more/less been saying this exact same thing for the past 13 pages.

zacker says it prettier 

you are only saying that because you've actually seen both zacker and i in person.   

[NYRoyal]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

That's a good point, but in a contract negotiation, what kind of initial offer shows respect and what kind of offer respresents disrespect?  Is anything less than $1M per year disrespectful?  If so, how and why do we draw the line there?

I think it's pretty easy to do so in this instance.  You have 12 coaches in the conference.  Any offer you make will immediately tell the coach where you think they stand.  The coach's demand will tell you where he thinks he stands.  Any demand above the top 2 is ridiculous.  Any offer below the bottom 4 is ridiculous.  I think those provide respectable starting points for negotiations.

That makes sense.  How much do the bottom 4 coaches make?

[steve dave]

Agreed.  And I think if more people understood this element of the contract, they'd be less likely to describe the negotations as good guy vs. bad guy.  Currie wants to keep Martin, but knows he is likely just paying for a rental.  Do most Cat fans understand this?

No idea.  I'd say many do, I'm certainly not expecting Frank to be a lifer.  I'm hopeful that we can get something done that will allow us to at least keep Frank around another 3-4 years at Top 20 type program success.  I think this is possible.  After that, who knows, its likely we won't be able to keep him.

It seems to me like an additional 3-4 years might be unrealistic, as long as he continues to have decent success.  Let's say that the two sides agreed to a 4/$6M deal.  If Martin got an offer a year later for more money at a more prestigous school (and I think that is likely), wouldn't he probably take it?  It would be easy for many schools to pay him $2+M per year.  But it certainly wouldn't be easy for K-State.  I don't see how we keep him for long, regardless of the contract extension we sign him to (unless it has a really big buyout, which, as you pointed out, is unlikely).

all the stuff you say is all well and good, but if you're ksu and you understand that your controlable situation is, inherently, inferior to other places, then you work on the things you can control.   you highlight your strengths as much as possible because you know if you do you have more of a chance at keeping him (and it really doesn't "cost" you any more than you would have normally paid).  to me, it's pretty simple when dealing with frank....don't disrespect him.  doesn't mean "kiss his ass".  just be fair with him.  And then if you do that, you put yourself in a position that when those schools come calling with more money, maybe he stays because of the relationship you have with him (which doesn't "cost" anything).  he might still bolt, but it won't be because your "new" offer still put paid him as a bottom 4 coach.

That's a good point, but in a contract negotiation, what kind of initial offer shows respect and what kind of offer respresents disrespect?  Is anything less than $1M per year disrespectful?  If so, how and why do we draw the line there?

I think it's pretty easy to do so in this instance.  You have 12 coaches in the conference.  Any offer you make will immediately tell the coach where you think they stand.  The coach's demand will tell you where he thinks he stands.  Any demand above the top 2 is ridiculous.  Any offer below the bottom 4 is ridiculous.  I think those provide respectable starting points for negotiations.

That makes sense.  How much do the bottom 4 coaches make?

  I don't think we ever got a full updated list.  That's got to be out on the interwebs somewhere.