Date: 17/06/25 - 18:11 PM   48060 Topics and 694399 Posts

Author Topic: Frank's extension  (Read 71028 times)

January 20, 2010, 10:27:01 PM
Reply #360

montywildcat

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Decourcy's podcast on 810 is a must listen for many of you.

http://www.810whb.com/podcasts

The Martin contract discussion starts at 8:19. (Not sure if a re-post, but it belongs in this thread anyway.)


On whether or not there is an issue:

Quote
"It's there. It's legitimate. The people who are talking about it are on the money. They are right. They are in the absolute correct ballpark. I mean it is an issue."

On timing of the extension:

Quote
"Why wait (until the end of the season)? What do you need to see? You know that he's done an effective job. You know that the longer it goes on, the more of a hassle it becomes, so why wait?"

Quote
"If you need to see results in the NCAA tournament to know whether or not Frank Martin is the right coach for your job, then you aren't effective enough at what you do. Now I don't think that of the K-State people....."

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If you need to see the results on the floor, then you don't know how to evaluate."


January 20, 2010, 10:27:37 PM
Reply #361

sys

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Before the season, what would be your cutoff between insulting offer and non-insulting offer as a starting point in negotiations?

i put it in my "you're all &@#%ing retards" rant.  1 million.
"these are no longer “games” in the commonly accepted sense of the term. these are free throw shooting contests leavened by the occasional sprint to the other end of the floor."

January 20, 2010, 10:29:07 PM
Reply #362

michigancat

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Before the season, what would be your cutoff between insulting offer and non-insulting offer as a starting point in negotiations?

i put it in my "you're all fracking retards" rant.  1 million.

$1 million is legitimate, $900k is insulting?

GMAFB

:flush:

January 20, 2010, 10:31:31 PM
Reply #363

sys

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Let's not be crazy here.  We just need to make Frank is in the upper 3rd of the this league.  1.7-2.0 mil is a bit much at this point. 

def. agree.  kstate doesn't have to match his best offer or best potential offer.


and the assts don't need anything.  they only get raises if martin wants them to have more money more than he wants his kids to have more money.
"these are no longer “games” in the commonly accepted sense of the term. these are free throw shooting contests leavened by the occasional sprint to the other end of the floor."

January 20, 2010, 10:34:29 PM
Reply #364

sys

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$1 million is legitimate, $900k is insulting?

GMAFB

:flush:
[/quote

give me a &@#%ing straw man.  you asked for a &@#%ing min. non-insulting offer.  if you accept the starting point, by definition $999999 is an insult. 
"these are no longer “games” in the commonly accepted sense of the term. these are free throw shooting contests leavened by the occasional sprint to the other end of the floor."

January 20, 2010, 10:39:36 PM
Reply #365

michigancat

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It was a pretty good straw man, as it really exposes a flaw in your argument - you should have answered:

"I don't know any of the details, timing, or context an offer was presented, so I can't fairly give you a figure that would not be insulting.  Therefore, my entire argument is sh*t.  I now see the error of my ways and the fact that my hatred of capital letters is ridiculous.  kudos for the enlightenment, michigancat."

hth
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 10:41:22 PM by michigancat »

January 20, 2010, 10:40:48 PM
Reply #366

dobbie4ksu

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This thread should be up there with the recruiting info, full of insight and opinions. Maybe with the title, M.A.F.I.A Boss look'n for a raise
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January 20, 2010, 10:55:50 PM
Reply #367

Panjandrum

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Let's not be crazy here.  We just need to make Frank is in the upper 3rd of the this league.  1.7-2.0 mil is a bit much at this point. 

If I were Currie, assuming the money is there, I'd have started at 1.1 with raises to my staff (with the exception of Dalonte).

Frank gets to seven figures, bumps his staff up a bit, and we say that we're putting the rest towards groundbreaking the facility.  Then promise that after this whole Prince thing gets cleaned up in a few years (assuming that's the case) and we can generate some more revenue, we'll look at extending again.

But my main point is that the initial offer should have probably started at more than one million.  If it was less, we're in much worse financial shape than I thought, or John Currie learned how to negotiate from a really bad book about buying a used car.
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January 20, 2010, 10:59:02 PM
Reply #368

sys

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It was a pretty good straw man, as it really exposes a flaw in your argument - you should have answered:

"I don't know any of the details, timing, or context an offer was presented, so I can't fairly give you a figure that would not be insulting.  Therefore, my entire argument is sh*t.  I now see the error of my ways and the fact that my hatred of capital letters is ridiculous.  kudos for the enlightenment, michigancat."

hth

you cannot be &@#%ing serious.  your argument is seriously: "you pick a number and i can pick a number that is slightly higher or lower and my new number will not be dramatically different than your original number"?

jfc, dude.  jfc.
"these are no longer “games” in the commonly accepted sense of the term. these are free throw shooting contests leavened by the occasional sprint to the other end of the floor."

January 20, 2010, 11:44:21 PM
Reply #369

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initially i overeacted to this news (not on here though) but the more i think about it the more I think that ADJC was just redoing the contract so that it was a contract done under his admin with his stamp on it and his own wording.  I dont think ADJC wanted to mess with the actual $$ at that point (and as many have pointed out, Frank still had a lot to prove after only 2 yrs).  I mean, it would seem to fit with what he did with Snyder (and to a lesser extent Patterson and Hill though I dont really know much about their contracts other than i'm sure Hill deserved somewhat of a raise). 

the lowball offer I dont think was meant as a longterm solution if Frank ended up being really successful.  I fully believe Currie would have or will up Martin's deal if we end up with a super season whether Martin took the lowball offer or not.  I'm starting to think maybe the Martin camp has taken this the wrong way or else there is some serious disconnect in how the 2 sides are communicating. 

only at KSU though could something like this get way overblown.  I'm now in the camp of saving my meltdown for if/when Frank leaves.




January 21, 2010, 12:32:10 AM
Reply #370

BigCat

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Anything under $1.6m is totally insulting and you tards know it. If boring Barnes and criminal Anderson are at $2m, Frank needs to be at or near that amount.
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January 21, 2010, 12:56:38 AM
Reply #371

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January 21, 2010, 05:46:08 AM
Reply #372

michigancat

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It was a pretty good straw man, as it really exposes a flaw in your argument - you should have answered:

"I don't know any of the details, timing, or context an offer was presented, so I can't fairly give you a figure that would not be insulting.  Therefore, my entire argument is sh*t.  I now see the error of my ways and the fact that my hatred of capital letters is ridiculous.  kudos for the enlightenment, michigancat."

hth

you cannot be fracking serious.  your argument is seriously: "you pick a number and i can pick a number that is slightly higher or lower and my new number will not be dramatically different than your original number"?

jfc, dude.  jfc.

No, if you would have thrown out something like $1.4 as an initial offer, I would have called you a retard for starting the negotiations way to high, regardless of any other details.  If you would have picked $1.1 or $1.2, I'm not sure how I would have handled it.  I just don't think $1 million is far enough away from whatever mystical number he was offered to clearly be non-insulting without knowing any other details. 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 05:50:06 AM by michigancat »


January 21, 2010, 06:56:50 AM
Reply #374

doom

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initially i overeacted to this news (not on here though) but the more i think about it the more I think that ADJC was just redoing the contract so that it was a contract done under his admin with his stamp on it and his own wording.  I dont think ADJC wanted to mess with the actual $$ at that point (and as many have pointed out, Frank still had a lot to prove after only 2 yrs).  I mean, it would seem to fit with what he did with Snyder (and to a lesser extent Patterson and Hill though I dont really know much about their contracts other than i'm sure Hill deserved somewhat of a raise). 

the lowball offer I dont think was meant as a longterm solution if Frank ended up being really successful.  I fully believe Currie would have or will up Martin's deal if we end up with a super season whether Martin took the lowball offer or not.  I'm starting to think maybe the Martin camp has taken this the wrong way or else there is some serious disconnect in how the 2 sides are communicating. 

only at KSU though could something like this get way overblown.  I'm now in the camp of saving my meltdown for if/when Frank leaves.





Get it ready then.  Why would Martin agree to a lowball offer and put his faith that 1.5mil is going to come when he'd have to pay a buyout to leave if it did not?


I still want my cooler, bitches!

January 21, 2010, 07:31:30 AM
Reply #375

ksu_FAN

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January 21, 2010, 07:33:25 AM
Reply #376

Bookcat

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http://www.1350kman.com/news/?cat=12

Currie on 1350's The Game

Key points,
1. He thinks Frank is underpaid.
2. He demands fiscal responsibility and transparency.

otherwise, alot of ADspeak if that is what you crave.
"You guys want answers that are conversations between John and I. I ain't worried about it. I'm living the dream.... When I start worrying about a contract, I'd be cheating the kids and not doing my job." - Frank Martin

January 21, 2010, 08:02:56 AM
Reply #377

NYRoyal

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I want to thank Jeffrey Martin for his inside information on the negotiations over Frank Martin's potential contract extension.  This information gave rise to a firestorm of complaints and condemnations from Wildcat fans.  But I want to point out that we don't really know what is going in the negotiations.  I have no doubt that Jeffrey Martin is connected, but he's not in the negotiations.  He's receiving his information second or third-hand.  I'm sure both sides have exchanged numbers (dollar figures and years, perhaps more than that), perhaps several times.  While it is easy to say, "just give Martin a nice raise" or "give the man the money he deserves" it isn't that easy. 

For instance, let's say that John Currie and KSU are willing to give Martin a multi-year deal worth $1.5M per year.  Most Wildcat fans would say that is both fair and appropriate.  But that can't be their first offer.  If Currie faxed a 4-year/$6M offer to Martin's agent, do you think they'd just accept?  Of course not.  They are going to counter with a higher number, undoubtedly something like 4/$8M.  My point is that whatever K-State offers instantly becomes the contract floor and that what is eventually agreed to will be higher than that.  This does not mean that K-State should necessarily start with a ridiculous, insulting lowball offer.  That might have been what they did.  Maybe.  We don't know for sure.  But contract negotiations are about meeting in the middle.  Neither side gets everything they want.

But I don't think this is just about money.  It seemed like the prevailing tone in the comments on Jeffrey Martin's post was that K-State is being cheap and if they'd just offer a nice raise, Martin would sign and stay at K-State for many years.  There are several assumptions and leaps of faith there which might not be warranted.  The sticking point in the negotiation might not be salary or years.  Certainly they are at issue, but I'm sure K-State wants a contract that actually keeps Martin in Manhattan.  Let's take a ride in the Wayback Machine to 1990.  Lon Kruger had just led the Wildcats to their fourth NCAA torney appearance in his four years as head coach (including an Elite Eight appearance).  Kruger then thanked the University for their money and the fans for their support by leaving for the University of Florida.  Does Martin want to stay at K-State?  I'm sure many fans would say, "As long as he gets the right money and respect from the University and support from the fans, I'm sure he would."  First, that's just a guess (or wishcasting).  Second, even if K-State gives Martin a big raise, he can still get more money and more prestige from a school with a bigger name and deeper pockets.

What I'm suggesting is that one of the big sticking points in the negotiation might be some sort of penalty or buyout that Martin would have to pay if he leaves before the contract is up.  If Martin has his sights set on using K-State as a resume-builder so that he can move onward and upward when he gets a good offer elsewhere, then he's going to want little or no such penalty/buyout.  K-State, on the other hand, would want it to be significant.

I don't think this contract negotiation is a simple good guy (Martin) vs. bad guy (Currie) situation.  Martin may well be looking for the contract which is easiest to get out of, regardless of the salary involved.

January 21, 2010, 08:05:56 AM
Reply #378

berford

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At about the 3:00 mark... Frank's not going anywhere. Chill out until the season plays out.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4843449

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The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. -- C. S. Lewis (quoted in the movie, The Usual Suspects)

January 21, 2010, 08:10:48 AM
Reply #379

catINdallas

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I want to thank Jeffrey Martin for his inside information on the negotiations over Frank Martin's potential contract extension.  This information gave rise to a firestorm of complaints and condemnations from Wildcat fans.  But I want to point out that we don't really know what is going in the negotiations.  I have no doubt that Jeffrey Martin is connected, but he's not in the negotiations.  He's receiving his information second or third-hand.  I'm sure both sides have exchanged numbers (dollar figures and years, perhaps more than that), perhaps several times.  While it is easy to say, "just give Martin a nice raise" or "give the man the money he deserves" it isn't that easy. 

For instance, let's say that John Currie and KSU are willing to give Martin a multi-year deal worth $1.5M per year.  Most Wildcat fans would say that is both fair and appropriate.  But that can't be their first offer.  If Currie faxed a 4-year/$6M offer to Martin's agent, do you think they'd just accept?  Of course not.  They are going to counter with a higher number, undoubtedly something like 4/$8M.  My point is that whatever K-State offers instantly becomes the contract floor and that what is eventually agreed to will be higher than that.  This does not mean that K-State should necessarily start with a ridiculous, insulting lowball offer.  That might have been what they did.  Maybe.  We don't know for sure.  But contract negotiations are about meeting in the middle.  Neither side gets everything they want.

But I don't think this is just about money.  It seemed like the prevailing tone in the comments on Jeffrey Martin's post was that K-State is being cheap and if they'd just offer a nice raise, Martin would sign and stay at K-State for many years.  There are several assumptions and leaps of faith there which might not be warranted.  The sticking point in the negotiation might not be salary or years.  Certainly they are at issue, but I'm sure K-State wants a contract that actually keeps Martin in Manhattan.  Let's take a ride in the Wayback Machine to 1990.  Lon Kruger had just led the Wildcats to their fourth NCAA torney appearance in his four years as head coach (including an Elite Eight appearance).  Kruger then thanked the University for their money and the fans for their support by leaving for the University of Florida.  Does Martin want to stay at K-State?  I'm sure many fans would say, "As long as he gets the right money and respect from the University and support from the fans, I'm sure he would."  First, that's just a guess (or wishcasting).  Second, even if K-State gives Martin a big raise, he can still get more money and more prestige from a school with a bigger name and deeper pockets.

What I'm suggesting is that one of the big sticking points in the negotiation might be some sort of penalty or buyout that Martin would have to pay if he leaves before the contract is up.  If Martin has his sights set on using K-State as a resume-builder so that he can move onward and upward when he gets a good offer elsewhere, then he's going to want little or no such penalty/buyout.  K-State, on the other hand, would want it to be significant.

I don't think this contract negotiation is a simple good guy (Martin) vs. bad guy (Currie) situation.  Martin may well be looking for the contract which is easiest to get out of, regardless of the salary involved.

jfc, this is a message board not a fracking book club....

January 21, 2010, 08:14:10 AM
Reply #380

NYRoyal

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catINdallas, did you have trouble reading that many words?  And are you suggesting that posts here should include less insight, analysis and information?  That makes posts better?

January 21, 2010, 08:17:33 AM
Reply #381

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jfc, this is a message board not a fracking book club....

Don't be an ass. It's rational well thought out thinking, unlike a lot of the knee-jerk responses on this board. How free everybody seems to be with K-State's money... It'll all play out and be just fine. Starting at about the 3;00 mark -

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4843449
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. -- C. S. Lewis (quoted in the movie, The Usual Suspects)

January 21, 2010, 08:18:22 AM
Reply #382

chum1

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Sticking point:  mid-major sized budget.  We could DOD the Mountan West, people.  Think about it.

January 21, 2010, 08:22:49 AM
Reply #383

ksu_FAN

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There are good points there.  I agree that the information we have is very limited and skewed by one side or the other or both.

On buy-outs, I think its important, but I think recent history has shown that buy-outs rarely are good things to fall back on to keep coaches.  We'll need to have one, and it would be nice to have a decent one to help "seed" the next coach should Frank leave, but IMO it can't be a major sticking poing in getting the contract done.  Plus, I think Frank has enough leverage that we'll probably have to concede this one a bit.

January 21, 2010, 08:23:09 AM
Reply #384

pissclams

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Sticking point:  mid-major sized budget.  We could DOD the Mountan West, people.  Think about it.
i would love to DOD the Mountain West but you need to think before you speak.  BYU?  UNLV?  NM?  



Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

January 21, 2010, 08:25:41 AM
Reply #385

Johnny Wichita

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I want to thank Jeffrey Martin for his inside information on the negotiations over Frank Martin's potential contract extension.  This information gave rise to a firestorm of complaints and condemnations from Wildcat fans.  But I want to point out that we don't really know what is going in the negotiations.  I have no doubt that Jeffrey Martin is connected, but he's not in the negotiations.  He's receiving his information second or third-hand.  I'm sure both sides have exchanged numbers (dollar figures and years, perhaps more than that), perhaps several times.  While it is easy to say, "just give Martin a nice raise" or "give the man the money he deserves" it isn't that easy. 

For instance, let's say that John Currie and KSU are willing to give Martin a multi-year deal worth $1.5M per year.  Most Wildcat fans would say that is both fair and appropriate.  But that can't be their first offer.  If Currie faxed a 4-year/$6M offer to Martin's agent, do you think they'd just accept?  Of course not.  They are going to counter with a higher number, undoubtedly something like 4/$8M.  My point is that whatever K-State offers instantly becomes the contract floor and that what is eventually agreed to will be higher than that.  This does not mean that K-State should necessarily start with a ridiculous, insulting lowball offer.  That might have been what they did.  Maybe.  We don't know for sure.  But contract negotiations are about meeting in the middle.  Neither side gets everything they want.

But I don't think this is just about money.  It seemed like the prevailing tone in the comments on Jeffrey Martin's post was that K-State is being cheap and if they'd just offer a nice raise, Martin would sign and stay at K-State for many years.  There are several assumptions and leaps of faith there which might not be warranted.  The sticking point in the negotiation might not be salary or years.  Certainly they are at issue, but I'm sure K-State wants a contract that actually keeps Martin in Manhattan.  Let's take a ride in the Wayback Machine to 1990.  Lon Kruger had just led the Wildcats to their fourth NCAA torney appearance in his four years as head coach (including an Elite Eight appearance).  Kruger then thanked the University for their money and the fans for their support by leaving for the University of Florida.  Does Martin want to stay at K-State?  I'm sure many fans would say, "As long as he gets the right money and respect from the University and support from the fans, I'm sure he would."  First, that's just a guess (or wishcasting).  Second, even if K-State gives Martin a big raise, he can still get more money and more prestige from a school with a bigger name and deeper pockets.

What I'm suggesting is that one of the big sticking points in the negotiation might be some sort of penalty or buyout that Martin would have to pay if he leaves before the contract is up.  If Martin has his sights set on using K-State as a resume-builder so that he can move onward and upward when he gets a good offer elsewhere, then he's going to want little or no such penalty/buyout.  K-State, on the other hand, would want it to be significant.

I don't think this contract negotiation is a simple good guy (Martin) vs. bad guy (Currie) situation.  Martin may well be looking for the contract which is easiest to get out of, regardless of the salary involved.

Not all negotiations go like this.  Many times when competent people are involved, a fair price is offered and accepted with very little haggling over the details.  Everyone makes it seem like all negotiations are always some form of a grueling chess match
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January 21, 2010, 08:26:08 AM
Reply #386

sonofdaxjones

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Most mid-major sized budget's are $15 to $20 million less than K-State's athletic budget.

The only "mid-major's" that have anything close to K-State's athletic budget are the handful that play pretty big time football, like tcu and Utah, and frankly even though they play in the MWC I don't consider schools like tcu, at least as far as their entire athletic department's go, mid-majors. (Which is why I don't worry as much about the so called "super conferences" . . . but that's for another thread at a another time).






January 21, 2010, 08:26:47 AM
Reply #387

NYRoyal

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There are good points there.  I agree that the information we have is very limited and skewed by one side or the other or both.

On buy-outs, I think its important, but I think recent history has shown that buy-outs rarely are good things to fall back on to keep coaches.  We'll need to have one, and it would be nice to have a decent one to help "seed" the next coach should Frank leave, but IMO it can't be a major sticking poing in getting the contract done.  Plus, I think Frank has enough leverage that we'll probably have to concede this one a bit.
Without a significant buyout, we should all expect Frank to leave soon.  He's going to be on the short-list for every D1 school that has or will have a job opening.

The sad part is that when he leaves, I'm sure fans will blame Currie, even though the money he'll get from the next school will be significantly more than K-State could possibly afford.

January 21, 2010, 08:29:18 AM
Reply #388

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http://cjonline.com/sports/basketball/2010-01-20/currie_qa_whats_next_for_martin

Currie used a lot of words in that interview to not say much at all.

qft. maybe I'm easily comforted, but that (along with all the other interviews he gave) was comforting.  currie used the word trust a lot.  what I took out of what currie was saying, was basically "i'm being honest with frank about how we don't have money right now, but i'm working on getting that money, frank trusts me when I say that and believes me when I say that and I believe frank when he says that he trusts me and that he'll be patient. i'm not setting a deadline because I don't know when I'm going to get that money.  also, quit e-mailing me, I get it."  but maybe I just read way too much into it.  

January 21, 2010, 08:29:55 AM
Reply #389

NYRoyal

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I want to thank Jeffrey Martin for his inside information on the negotiations over Frank Martin's potential contract extension.  This information gave rise to a firestorm of complaints and condemnations from Wildcat fans.  But I want to point out that we don't really know what is going in the negotiations.  I have no doubt that Jeffrey Martin is connected, but he's not in the negotiations.  He's receiving his information second or third-hand.  I'm sure both sides have exchanged numbers (dollar figures and years, perhaps more than that), perhaps several times.  While it is easy to say, "just give Martin a nice raise" or "give the man the money he deserves" it isn't that easy. 

For instance, let's say that John Currie and KSU are willing to give Martin a multi-year deal worth $1.5M per year.  Most Wildcat fans would say that is both fair and appropriate.  But that can't be their first offer.  If Currie faxed a 4-year/$6M offer to Martin's agent, do you think they'd just accept?  Of course not.  They are going to counter with a higher number, undoubtedly something like 4/$8M.  My point is that whatever K-State offers instantly becomes the contract floor and that what is eventually agreed to will be higher than that.  This does not mean that K-State should necessarily start with a ridiculous, insulting lowball offer.  That might have been what they did.  Maybe.  We don't know for sure.  But contract negotiations are about meeting in the middle.  Neither side gets everything they want.

But I don't think this is just about money.  It seemed like the prevailing tone in the comments on Jeffrey Martin's post was that K-State is being cheap and if they'd just offer a nice raise, Martin would sign and stay at K-State for many years.  There are several assumptions and leaps of faith there which might not be warranted.  The sticking point in the negotiation might not be salary or years.  Certainly they are at issue, but I'm sure K-State wants a contract that actually keeps Martin in Manhattan.  Let's take a ride in the Wayback Machine to 1990.  Lon Kruger had just led the Wildcats to their fourth NCAA torney appearance in his four years as head coach (including an Elite Eight appearance).  Kruger then thanked the University for their money and the fans for their support by leaving for the University of Florida.  Does Martin want to stay at K-State?  I'm sure many fans would say, "As long as he gets the right money and respect from the University and support from the fans, I'm sure he would."  First, that's just a guess (or wishcasting).  Second, even if K-State gives Martin a big raise, he can still get more money and more prestige from a school with a bigger name and deeper pockets.

What I'm suggesting is that one of the big sticking points in the negotiation might be some sort of penalty or buyout that Martin would have to pay if he leaves before the contract is up.  If Martin has his sights set on using K-State as a resume-builder so that he can move onward and upward when he gets a good offer elsewhere, then he's going to want little or no such penalty/buyout.  K-State, on the other hand, would want it to be significant.

I don't think this contract negotiation is a simple good guy (Martin) vs. bad guy (Currie) situation.  Martin may well be looking for the contract which is easiest to get out of, regardless of the salary involved.

Not all negotiations go like this.  Many times when competent people are involved, a fair price is offered and accepted with very little haggling over the details.  Everyone makes it seem like all negotiations are always some form of a grueling chess match
We're talking about a multi-million dollar contract negotiation.  Do you think that is ever done with one offer followed by acceptance?  If so, you are fooling yourself.  There is ALWAYS a lot of back and forth with offers and counteroffers.