Author Topic: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.  (Read 22429 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #75 on: February 04, 2010, 04:34:02 PM »
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Offline felix rex

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #76 on: February 04, 2010, 04:35:49 PM »
Quote
If you don't like the way K-State plays, fine. But understand that K-State ranks 16th nationally in offensive efficiency, and if you don't like that, Doc Sadler and his 125th-ranked offense might be available after the season. (All those high-percentage shots did wonders for the Devaney Center atmosphere, lemme tell you.)

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Offline kougar24

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #77 on: February 04, 2010, 04:36:18 PM »
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #78 on: February 04, 2010, 04:38:03 PM »
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

kougz,
that's dumb.
your friend,
sd

Offline pissclams

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #79 on: February 04, 2010, 04:38:15 PM »
denis doesn't even have point guards skills though :dunno:

explain
low BBIQ, terrible handles, ok vision, selfish.

this really has nothing to do with X's and O's over talent as meek contends in his article.


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline pissclams

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #80 on: February 04, 2010, 04:38:58 PM »
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.
it certainly does but the pro-clemente contingent won't allow agree


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline kougar24

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2010, 04:39:45 PM »
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

kougz,
that's dumb.
your friend,
sd

it's actually very logical
your enemy
k24

Offline steve dave

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2010, 04:42:16 PM »
denis doesn't even have point guards skills though :dunno:

explain
low BBIQ, terrible handles, ok vision, selfish.

this really has nothing to do with X's and O's over talent as meek contends in his article.

I don't agree with the lbbiq or the handles.  Honestly, if he was shooting a slightly higher percentage from the field I don't think anyone would be bitching about his play.  He has a good A/TO ratio.

Offline JMart

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #83 on: February 04, 2010, 04:43:49 PM »
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Offline SleepFighter

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #84 on: February 04, 2010, 04:44:05 PM »
All you Kitchenettes need to GOOMF.

I'm with Meek.

Offline SleepFighter

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2010, 04:46:04 PM »
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list.  And very few primary ball handlers.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #86 on: February 04, 2010, 04:47:28 PM »
I think a lot of the problem is that some of his passes (especially in transition) are too fancy and complicated for our stone-handed bigs to catch.  Although he probably should've accounted for this by now, its not entirely his fault.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #87 on: February 04, 2010, 04:48:34 PM »
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

Is your gut inherently flawed because you're dumb?  Yes.

Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

His TO's are really low for as much as he "handles" the ball.  He probably has the best TO Rate for PG's in the league.  (or at least second to Keaton Page)

Offline felix rex

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #88 on: February 04, 2010, 04:50:04 PM »
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Yep. He makes plays with speed and some vision. But he's not a great decision maker or ball-handler. But he doesn't need to be, because he's super fast and gets really, really hot sometimes.

If we had a Morningstar looking dude with a terrible haircut who only shot when he was wide open and passed almost every time...and had the exact same stats as Denis, the GPC crowd would want to retire his jersey.

People are just complaining about "the way" Denis gets it done, and that just annoys the eff out of me.  :rolleyes:
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Offline Levi

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #89 on: February 04, 2010, 04:50:48 PM »
Honestly, if he was shooting a slightly higher percentage from the field I don't think anyone would be bitching about his play.  

But he's not. And that plus this  "Others are frustrated by his quick shots and suspect defense." equals this  :bang:.

Offline SleepFighter

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #90 on: February 04, 2010, 04:51:08 PM »

His TO's are really low for as much as he "handles" the ball.  He probably has the best TO Rate for PG's in the league.  (or at least second to Keaton Page)

See my link.

Offline kougar24

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2010, 04:52:05 PM »
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

Is your gut inherently flawed because you're dumb?  Yes.

Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

His TO's are really low for as much as he "handles" the ball.  He probably has the best TO Rate for PG's in the league.  (or at least second to Keaton Page)

So you watch Clems and think, "Man, what a good defender"? Be honest.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2010, 05:05:05 PM »
So you watch Clems and think, "Man, what a good defender"? Be honest.

Well, when I say he's good, it's mostly because he doesn't make a lot of mistakes and generally fulfills his responsibilities.  I totally disagree that he's out of position often.  He's rarely caught sleeping on transition D, his rotations are good for the most part - You don't see him "give away" many baskets like the freshmen often do.

Offline JMart

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2010, 05:13:25 PM »
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list.  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

Offline SleepFighter

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #94 on: February 04, 2010, 05:19:32 PM »
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list.  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Offline JMart

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #95 on: February 04, 2010, 05:31:45 PM »
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list.  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Let me make this extremely simple for you, stat guy - twice this season, in games I've watched on television, Denis has had the ball stolen from him once he crossed midcourt or was about to cross midcourt. That's two more times than I've seen that happen to Kalin Lucas, Sherron Collins, etc. It has just stuck in my head. I'm not discounting your precious TORate, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

Offline weird roberts foam finger

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #96 on: February 04, 2010, 05:37:12 PM »
There are two ways to evaluate a player:

1. Eyeball test.  Scouts do this, I'm told, to determine a player's attributes, tendencies, strengths, weaknesses and overall abilities.
2. Stats.  Coaches and analysts love this stuff, since it gives them ammunition for the things they want to work on that they see from No. 1.

To get a full picture, you really need both.  As fans, most of us will never be able to adequately do No. 1, therefore No. 2 becomes our crutch.  Problematically, it doesn't tell the "whole story", but this is what makes us fans -- partial truths clung to as gospel.  Here endeth the lesson.

Oh yeah, and this argument is dumb.  Sys was right -- last summer was the time to whine about Clemente.  He ain't changing his spots.  He will take mind-numbing shots, he will hit pretty floaters, he will play average defense and he will mostly stay away from turnovers.  So beat your head against the wall if you want, but I'll spend my time worrying about Frank's contract instead.   :ohno:
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Offline SleepFighter

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #97 on: February 04, 2010, 05:51:03 PM »
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list.  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Let me make this extremely simple for you, stat guy - twice this season, in games I've watched on television, Denis has had the ball stolen from him once he crossed midcourt or was about to cross midcourt. That's two more times than I've seen that happen to Kalin Lucas, Sherron Collins, etc. It has just stuck in my head. I'm not discounting your precious TORate, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

What does this prove about Collins play in 2009?  Nothing, regardless of your precious eyeball test.

Besides that, nobody on Earth is saying Clemente is the best PG in the country, deserving All-American status, or is going into the NBA, so can we put that strawman away please?

It was silly to say he gets the ripped often. 

Offline JMart

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #98 on: February 04, 2010, 05:56:24 PM »
Essentially, your argument, based on stats, is that he has a great handle.

My original point - go back and check, if you'd like - was that he doesn't have a great handle, and I based that on what I've observed.

Feel free to continue the argument, but I don't think there's a resolution.

Offline slimz

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #99 on: February 04, 2010, 06:10:51 PM »
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list.  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Let me make this extremely simple for you, stat guy - twice this season, in games I've watched on television, Denis has had the ball stolen from him once he crossed midcourt or was about to cross midcourt. That's two more times than I've seen that happen to Kalin Lucas, Sherron Collins, etc. It has just stuck in my head. I'm not discounting your precious TORate, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I clearly recall those two incidents, as well.  Here's a theory on the Denis "handles" issue:

The main weapon Denis relies upon for ball security is his speed.  Thus, we don't see him zig-zag with a crossover or back the ball down the court and over the half-court line, a la Clent Stewart, or lower his shoulder while dribbling behind himself before going into a superspin, a la Sherron.  He doesn't usually give the defender time to get set up to pick his pocket.  Also, as a result, he hasn't had to work on developing some of those ball-protection techniques.