Author Topic: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.  (Read 22430 times)

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Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« on: February 04, 2010, 06:32:07 AM »


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Offline ZmoneyKSU

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2010, 06:38:41 AM »
You didn't like the article?

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 06:39:24 AM »
seriously, I stopped reading halfway, because it was so stupid, but than I went back and read the whole thing, and it was even more stupid in the second half.

Offline ZmoneyKSU

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 06:44:22 AM »
I thought he made some valid points.

I love most everything about Denis, but I can admit his shot selection drives me up a wall sometimes.

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 07:00:20 AM »
I thought he made some valid points.

I love most everything about Denis, but I can admit his shot selection drives me up a wall sometimes.

You can't make valid points when your stats were wrong. 

For starters, Clemente shoots less than he did last year:

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Kansas%20St.&y=2009

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Kansas%20St.&y=2010

Also, these two lines combine to make Kitchen look like a complete idiot:

Quote
The only way to fully prove this would be to figure the actual number of offensive rebounds gathered off Clemente’s misses and compare it to the number of offensive boards resulting from other players’ missed attempts. Without knowing, I bet the percentage favors other players’ misses.

In other words, I don't have any stats, but I can guess other players misses are rebounded more.


This is also a brutal, mainly because he claims to be using "statistics":

Quote
Faced with statistics, it is a difference in opinion, and Martin’s obviously is the more important one compared to all others.  He has no problem with the shot selection. Or, at least he feels a greater percentage of the shots taken are “good” shots.

The coach also has stated that Denis does a good job of taking care of the basketball, pointing to the increased assist/turnover ratio.  The assists are up, I agree, but not by a huge margin. The turnovers...well, I guess the wry response is it's hard to turn over the ball when you're shooting it more often.

His turnover rate went from 19.5% to 13.5%.   His shot % went from 28.9% to 27.3%.

In short, Kitchen is an idiot.

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 07:24:45 AM »
Good Kitchen talk out of Meek & Rob in the 2/2 KSU football recruiting podcast.

http://cjonline.com/radio/podcast


Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 07:30:59 AM »
Yeah, its a bit distorted b/c the stats chosen support it, but as Rusty shows there are other stats that don't make it as severe.  That said, it will be a popular article among people who read his stuff b/c a large part of the K-State fan-base agrees with him.  Especially gpers.


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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 07:36:49 AM »
DAX!

Offline WillieWatanabe

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 07:39:50 AM »
man, we bitch about the stupidest things...     :flush:
Sometimes I think of the Book of Job and how God likes to really eff with people.
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Offline mcmwcat

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 07:49:16 AM »
wow.  thanks to Rusty for digging and clarifying Kitchen's ridiculous errors.  you sir a gentleman and a scholar

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2010, 08:01:20 AM »
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2010, 08:05:07 AM »
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:
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Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2010, 08:12:39 AM »
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even.  

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:

Pullen already is the same player.  And I don't think Walker's a very good comparison to these guys.  His issues were always effort related more than anything, but his talent gave him free reign.  Pullen and Clemente go hard all the time, and for the most part play good defense, which gives them more leeway than Nick Russell or Martavious.

Also, it's stupid to think you should have the same "rules" or whatever for every player.  You don't sit Clemente or Pullen for very long to teach them lessons about shot selection.  Well, you don't if you want to win basketball games.

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2010, 08:15:53 AM »
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2010, 08:18:04 AM »
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even.  

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:

Pullen already is the same player.  And I don't think Walker's a very good comparison to these guys.  His issues were always effort related more than anything, but his talent gave him free reign.  Pullen and Clemente go hard all the time, and for the most part play good defense, which gives them more leeway than Nick Russell or Martavious.

Also, it's stupid to think you should have the same "rules" or whatever for every player.  You don't sit Clemente or Pullen for very long to teach them lessons about shot selection.  Well, you don't if you want to win basketball games.

True.  

And the comparison to Walker is that of all the guys on his first team, the one Frank always pointed to as "the" leader was Walker.  On the last two teams "the" leader has been Clemente.  Both guys have an extreme amount of confidence/swagger and aren't afraid to hide it, I don't think that is a coincidence.

And I agree completely that fans that like to point out some sort of double standard for their best players don't understand coaching at all.  All coaches pretty much do this.

Offline Pexikan

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2010, 08:19:33 AM »
And how many of Denis' misses are heat-check shots? I gotta think that there's a good percentage that are. 

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2010, 08:20:20 AM »
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2010, 08:23:33 AM »
And how many of Denis' misses are heat-check shots? I gotta think that there's a good percentage that are. 

not sure if Denis doesn't think he's on fire all the time and his supposed heat check shots are just his normal fare.

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2010, 08:25:34 AM »
Our fans are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). 

But sd, all fans are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)! 

No, ours are moreso.

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 08:26:10 AM »
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

I blame the movie Hoosiers.  Everything Gene Hackman did, was like, the miracle formula for winning basketball games "the right way".  Except for the technicals and ejections.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 08:27:48 AM »
And how many of Denis' misses are heat-check shots? I gotta think that there's a good percentage that are. 

not sure if Denis doesn't think he's on fire all the time and his supposed heat check shots are just his normal fare.

Exactly.  And this is why Denis is good.

And Denis is not going to change, and neither is Frank.

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2010, 08:34:48 AM »
I think a good number of anti-powertards defend Denis because it's the cool thing to do over here.

People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.   The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

Also- Pullen today is a much better player than Denis ever will be. They aren't the same player, dumb comparo.


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2010, 08:37:49 AM »
I think a good number of anti-powertards defend Denis because it's the cool thing to do over here.

People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.   The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

Also- Pullen today is a much better player than Denis ever will be. They aren't the same player, dumb comparo.

I like Denis. 

I think we'll miss his speed in transition and his ability to score.  Irving/Russell/whoever takes over the other guard spot won't be able to replace it. 

That doesn't mean we won't be better though, b/c guys like McGruder, Kelly, Samuels will get better to and offset Denis production. 

And then there is leadership, attitude, etc. but that's more an intangible thing and can be replaced, but you never know.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2010, 08:58:07 AM »
not pressuring teams on fast break.  The most ridiculous stat is the .3 increase in free throws indicating that "Denis holds the ball more this year."  Not sure about that article, seems like he let perceptions mold the piece and then scratched for stats instead of actually testing a hypothesis.