goemaw.com

TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Jerome Tang Coaches Kansas State Basketball => Topic started by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 06:32:07 AM

Title: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 06:32:07 AM
http://810whb.com/blog/2798

:flush: :flush: :flush:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: ZmoneyKSU on February 04, 2010, 06:38:41 AM
You didn't like the article?
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 06:39:24 AM
seriously, I stopped reading halfway, because it was so stupid, but than I went back and read the whole thing, and it was even more stupid in the second half.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: ZmoneyKSU on February 04, 2010, 06:44:22 AM
I thought he made some valid points.

I love most everything about Denis, but I can admit his shot selection drives me up a wall sometimes.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 07:00:20 AM
I thought he made some valid points.

I love most everything about Denis, but I can admit his shot selection drives me up a wall sometimes.

You can't make valid points when your stats were wrong. 

For starters, Clemente shoots less than he did last year:

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Kansas%20St.&y=2009

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Kansas%20St.&y=2010

Also, these two lines combine to make Kitchen look like a complete idiot:

Quote
The only way to fully prove this would be to figure the actual number of offensive rebounds gathered off Clemente’s misses and compare it to the number of offensive boards resulting from other players’ missed attempts. Without knowing, I bet the percentage favors other players’ misses.

In other words, I don't have any stats, but I can guess other players misses are rebounded more.


This is also a brutal, mainly because he claims to be using "statistics":

Quote
Faced with statistics, it is a difference in opinion, and Martin’s obviously is the more important one compared to all others.  He has no problem with the shot selection. Or, at least he feels a greater percentage of the shots taken are “good” shots.

The coach also has stated that Denis does a good job of taking care of the basketball, pointing to the increased assist/turnover ratio.  The assists are up, I agree, but not by a huge margin. The turnovers...well, I guess the wry response is it's hard to turn over the ball when you're shooting it more often.

His turnover rate went from 19.5% to 13.5%.   His shot % went from 28.9% to 27.3%.

In short, Kitchen is an idiot.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Trim on February 04, 2010, 07:24:45 AM
Good Kitchen talk out of Meek & Rob in the 2/2 KSU football recruiting podcast.

http://cjonline.com/radio/podcast

Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 07:30:59 AM
Yeah, its a bit distorted b/c the stats chosen support it, but as Rusty shows there are other stats that don't make it as severe.  That said, it will be a popular article among people who read his stuff b/c a large part of the K-State fan-base agrees with him.  Especially gpers.

Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 07:36:49 AM
DAX!
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: WillieWatanabe on February 04, 2010, 07:39:50 AM
man, we bitch about the stupidest things...     :flush:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: mcmwcat on February 04, 2010, 07:49:16 AM
wow.  thanks to Rusty for digging and clarifying Kitchen's ridiculous errors.  you sir a gentleman and a scholar
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 08:01:20 AM
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: WillieWatanabe on February 04, 2010, 08:05:07 AM
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 08:07:51 AM
Evidence of how popular this will be. (http://www.ksufans.com/forums/index.php?topic=50156.msg706547#msg706547)

Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 08:12:39 AM
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even.  

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:

Pullen already is the same player.  And I don't think Walker's a very good comparison to these guys.  His issues were always effort related more than anything, but his talent gave him free reign.  Pullen and Clemente go hard all the time, and for the most part play good defense, which gives them more leeway than Nick Russell or Martavious.

Also, it's stupid to think you should have the same "rules" or whatever for every player.  You don't sit Clemente or Pullen for very long to teach them lessons about shot selection.  Well, you don't if you want to win basketball games.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Pete on February 04, 2010, 08:15:53 AM
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 08:18:04 AM
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even.  

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:

Pullen already is the same player.  And I don't think Walker's a very good comparison to these guys.  His issues were always effort related more than anything, but his talent gave him free reign.  Pullen and Clemente go hard all the time, and for the most part play good defense, which gives them more leeway than Nick Russell or Martavious.

Also, it's stupid to think you should have the same "rules" or whatever for every player.  You don't sit Clemente or Pullen for very long to teach them lessons about shot selection.  Well, you don't if you want to win basketball games.

True.  

And the comparison to Walker is that of all the guys on his first team, the one Frank always pointed to as "the" leader was Walker.  On the last two teams "the" leader has been Clemente.  Both guys have an extreme amount of confidence/swagger and aren't afraid to hide it, I don't think that is a coincidence.

And I agree completely that fans that like to point out some sort of double standard for their best players don't understand coaching at all.  All coaches pretty much do this.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Pexikan on February 04, 2010, 08:19:33 AM
And how many of Denis' misses are heat-check shots? I gotta think that there's a good percentage that are. 
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 08:20:20 AM
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: mcmwcat on February 04, 2010, 08:23:33 AM
And how many of Denis' misses are heat-check shots? I gotta think that there's a good percentage that are. 

not sure if Denis doesn't think he's on fire all the time and his supposed heat check shots are just his normal fare.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 08:25:34 AM
Our fans are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). 

But sd, all fans are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)! 

No, ours are moreso.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 08:26:10 AM
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

I blame the movie Hoosiers.  Everything Gene Hackman did, was like, the miracle formula for winning basketball games "the right way".  Except for the technicals and ejections.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 08:27:48 AM
And how many of Denis' misses are heat-check shots? I gotta think that there's a good percentage that are. 

not sure if Denis doesn't think he's on fire all the time and his supposed heat check shots are just his normal fare.

Exactly.  And this is why Denis is good.

And Denis is not going to change, and neither is Frank.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 08:34:48 AM
I think a good number of anti-powertards defend Denis because it's the cool thing to do over here.

People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.   The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

Also- Pullen today is a much better player than Denis ever will be. They aren't the same player, dumb comparo.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 08:37:49 AM
I think a good number of anti-powertards defend Denis because it's the cool thing to do over here.

People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.   The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

Also- Pullen today is a much better player than Denis ever will be. They aren't the same player, dumb comparo.

I like Denis. 

I think we'll miss his speed in transition and his ability to score.  Irving/Russell/whoever takes over the other guard spot won't be able to replace it. 

That doesn't mean we won't be better though, b/c guys like McGruder, Kelly, Samuels will get better to and offset Denis production. 

And then there is leadership, attitude, etc. but that's more an intangible thing and can be replaced, but you never know.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Kat Kid on February 04, 2010, 08:58:07 AM
not pressuring teams on fast break.  The most ridiculous stat is the .3 increase in free throws indicating that "Denis holds the ball more this year."  Not sure about that article, seems like he let perceptions mold the piece and then scratched for stats instead of actually testing a hypothesis.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 08:58:24 AM
I think a good number of anti-powertards defend Denis because it's the cool thing to do over here.

People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even.  

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone?  

Also- Pullen today is a much better player than Denis ever will be. They aren't the same player, dumb comparo.

I like Denis.  

I think we'll miss his speed in transition and his ability to score.  Irving/Russell/whoever takes over the other guard spot won't be able to replace it.  

That doesn't mean we won't be better though, b/c guys like McGruder, Kelly, Samuels will get better to and offset Denis production.  

And then there is leadership, attitude, etc. but that's more an intangible thing and can be replaced, but you never know.
intangibles?  sounds like a SLTP to me.  

speed in transition?  he turns the ball over a lot in transition if you haven't noticed, he doesn't score as much in transition as you think he might, he jacks up shots from 23 and misses, a lot.  any player can be told to haul down the court at full speed.

leadership?  pullen already has taken that role from Denis this season.


I like Denis too, but I'm not going to make him into more than he is.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: catzacker on February 04, 2010, 09:05:41 AM
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

I don't know what the word for it is.  It's not "racist" but it's an "ist".  It's this delusional/mythical memory of how basketball "used to be played", specifically at KSU but in a lot of people's cases they try to project their experiences playing HS basketball onto major college basketball.  They want everyone to hit FT's like Steve Henson, when in reality his FT rate was rare, then and now.  They want all coaches to coach like Hartman, when the reality is that while he is the most successful KSU basketball coach, he had terrible teams and most of his good teams were driven by the same thing good teams are now...talent.  They want everyone to take good shots like Mike Evans and Chuckie Williams did, and in the same breathe they'll say "they didn't have the 3pt line back then but they were chucking it further out than the 3pt line" as if those would be good shots now.  
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: felix rex on February 04, 2010, 09:07:06 AM
I blame the movie Hoosiers.  Everything Gene Hackman did, was like, the miracle formula for winning basketball games "the right way".  Except for the technicals and ejections.

Doc would have chased Jimmy Chitwood off for good.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 09:11:46 AM
LBBIQ Denis Analysis:

Love him.  Seems to force teams to scramble back on defense even off made baskets possibly keeping them off the offensive glass :dunno:  Great at creating his own shot though it hasn't been falling as much as it used to.  Has the ability to go off for 20+ which Martavious will never have.  Plays bad defense sometimes.  Seems to do well at breaking press.  Like when they try to trap him at halfcourt and he just leans into the defender forcing a call by the official and forcing them to stop trying to trap at half court.  Like his runner which he can get whenever he wants (goes back to creating his own shot I guess).  Isn't afraid to shoot when open early in possession which is what we want to do according to Frank (raises the number of possessions? :dunno: ).  A:TO ratio is respectible in relation to the amount of sh1t he gets about it.  Don't know why this is.  Possibly our fans hate flashy turnovers and would rather have a bounce pass out of bounds 25 seconds into the shot clock :dunno:  Probably some other stuff that I can't put into words because I have LBBIQ.  
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 09:12:40 AM
intangibles?  sounds like a SLTP to me.  

speed in transition?  he turns the ball over a lot in transition if you haven't noticed, he doesn't score as much in transition as you think he might, he jacks up shots from 23 and misses, a lot.  any player can be told to haul down the court at full speed.

leadership?  pullen already has taken that role from Denis this season.


I like Denis too, but I'm not going to make him into more than he is.

Its all good.  

We won't completely know "what he is" until next year anyway.  I hope I am making him more than he is.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 09:12:57 AM
speed in transition?  he turns the ball over a lot in transition if you haven't noticed, he doesn't score as much in transition as you think he might, he jacks up shots from 23 and misses, a lot.  any player can be told to haul down the court at full speed.

He doesn't turn the ball over a lot in transition.  And the offense is A LOT better when he's on the floor than when he's off:

http://basketball-statistics.com/blog1/category/ncaa-plus-minus/
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Dugout DickStone on February 04, 2010, 09:22:25 AM
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

I blame the movie Hoosiers.  Everything Gene Hackman did, was like, the miracle formula for winning basketball games "the right way".  Except for the technicals and ejections.

Banging the sister of one of his players was pretty jinked up too...



I'm with Rusty.  Denis is going to leave some crap on the court both good and bad but the good outweighs the bad.  I expect him to have a strong second half.  There is no comparo with Walker.  Frank loved Walker because it is literally impossible not to love Bill Walker.  He loves Denis because Denis bleeds for this team.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Broadway on February 04, 2010, 09:26:51 AM
Our fans are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). 

But sd, all fans are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)! 

No, ours are moreso.

QFT.  :bawl:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: sys on February 04, 2010, 09:36:32 AM
i wish manbeck would pick a fight with kitchen so it'd be easy to pick sides.  overall, i'm pretty happy that kitchen wrote a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) blog entry, it feels good to hate him.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: WillieWatanabe on February 04, 2010, 10:10:57 AM
sys gave the best description of clemente in another thread...but im too lazy to find it.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Pexikan on February 04, 2010, 10:20:41 AM
Denis assets to this team are leadership and swagger. As far as his offensive game, he's a streaky outside shooter and he's got a decent runner/tear-drop shot. He needs to work at running the point better and  getting to the rim more when we are in our half court sets. He has to stop forcing shots whether he's hot or cold. He lacks patience. He still has a bit of the mindstate that he's our go-to scorer fm last season IMO. Couldn't be more wrong. On defense, I don't see where all this talk is about him being a good defender comes from. Is it because he's fast and stays with his guy when we man-to-man our opponents? That's ok, but not that great because his man still gets off uncontested shots. He doesn't play his passing lanes as well as he did last year. How many passes has he intercepted this season? I bet its between 0 and 1. He's too passive and lets our opponents run their offense instead of trying to go for steals and forcing turnovers. This may get more fouls called for reaching, but its worth a try now and then. To summerize, he's only aggressive on offense. As our point guard and fearless leader, he should find ways to help us instead of just scoring.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 10:20:54 AM
http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   :runaway:

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

I blame the movie Hoosiers.  Everything Gene Hackman did, was like, the miracle formula for winning basketball games "the right way".  Except for the technicals and ejections.

Banging the sister of one of his players was pretty jinked up too...



I'm with Rusty.  Denis is going to leave some crap on the court both good and bad but the good outweighs the bad.  I expect him to have a strong second half.  There is no comparo with Walker.  Frank loved Walker because it is literally impossible not to love Bill Walker.  He loves Denis because Denis bleeds for this team.

Great point about the sister that never gets brought up.

Bill Walker was an undeniable force of nature, good and bad. The coaches loved him, yes, but they weren't exactly pissed when he left, either.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Pexikan on February 04, 2010, 10:29:42 AM
Frank wasn't too happy that Bill left. Basically came out and said he had more to improve on. I believed Frank too. We sure could have used him last season, man.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 10:33:20 AM
Leadership and swagger, a book by Ron Prince.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Pexikan on February 04, 2010, 10:35:13 AM
Maybe I'm putting my foot in my mouth now. Franks said he should go pro. I just can't believe Martin would let go a player as good as Bill Walker.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 10:35:53 AM
It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.  

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 10:42:48 AM
It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.
you're splitting hairs
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Pexikan on February 04, 2010, 10:44:56 AM
Jmart, am I to assume that Bill wasn't "buying in" to Franks coaching? One would think that BW added to our team last year could have made us more dangerous.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 10:47:06 AM
It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.
you're splitting hairs

I'll simplify.

Our guards will turn the ball over more next year.

Missed shots are better than turnovers.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 10:58:23 AM
Maybe I'm putting my foot in my mouth now. Franks said he should go pro. I just can't believe Martin would let go a player as good as Bill Walker.

Frank said more than that.  I was talking to Frank one on one when a 60'ish year old powerespect walked up to him and told him Bill shouldn't go pro because he wasn't ready.  Frank told him, "That is bullshit.  The kid is one more knee injury away from never getting paid to play basketball.  He has to go pro." This was before Bill had even announced that he was leaving.  Frank is the anti-Bill Self in that regard.  Are you the guy that walked up to Frank?
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 11:13:57 AM
It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.
you're splitting hairs

I'll simplify.

Our guards will turn the ball over more next year.

Missed shots are better than turnovers.
you must have watched good will hunting last night.  do you understand what the term "splitting hairs" means, will?
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Pexikan on February 04, 2010, 11:29:47 AM
Not the same guy, but I'm still greedy about this team. Yea Bill would be fracked after another knee injury. Take the money and run. I'm a realist so I accept that. I'm pissed Bills riding the pine in the NBA after 2 seasons instead of rolling the dice and taking a risk in the name of glory. My tardish belief is if Bill stays and DOESN'T blow out his knee, we make the NCAAs instead of the BS NIT. Shoulda woulda coulda is all that is now. Not that anything matters with BW anymore.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 11:31:15 AM
Dude, he wasn't coming back regardless, OK? The program was lucky he stuck around when Huggs left. Everyone knew when he did it would be for one more year only.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 11:33:15 AM
Not the same guy, but I'm still greedy about this team. Yea Bill would be fracked after another knee injury. Take the money and run. I'm a realist so I accept that. I'm pissed Bills riding the pine in the NBA after 2 seasons instead of rolling the dice and taking a risk in the name of glory. My tardish belief is if Bill stays and DOESN'T blow out his knee, we make the NCAAs instead of the BS NIT. Shoulda woulda coulda is all that is now. Not that anything matters with BW anymore.

I have a random theory that KSU w/ Bill last season = OU w/ WWIII this season.  I have nothing to back it up, but I wonder.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: mcmwcat on February 04, 2010, 11:42:34 AM
What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

a good PG?  someone who when he gets hot can impact a game about as much as any player in the country? :dunno:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: catzacker on February 04, 2010, 11:46:25 AM
Not the same guy, but I'm still greedy about this team. Yea Bill would be fracked after another knee injury. Take the money and run. I'm a realist so I accept that. I'm pissed Bills riding the pine in the NBA after 2 seasons instead of rolling the dice and taking a risk in the name of glory. My tardish belief is if Bill stays and DOESN'T blow out his knee, we make the NCAAs instead of the BS NIT. Shoulda woulda coulda is all that is now. Not that anything matters with BW anymore.

I have a random theory that KSU w/ Bill last season = OU w/ WWIII this season.  I have nothing to back it up, but I wonder.

I agree with this assessment.  I believe the kids say "qft". 
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 11:46:45 AM
It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.
you're splitting hairs

I'll simplify.

Our guards will turn the ball over more next year.

Missed shots are better than turnovers.
you must have watched good will hunting last night.  do you understand what the term "splitting hairs" means, will?

Don't agree that the differences are unimportant, random townie at the bar.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: EllToPay on February 04, 2010, 11:47:05 AM
Not the same guy, but I'm still greedy about this team. Yea Bill would be fracked after another knee injury. Take the money and run. I'm a realist so I accept that. I'm pissed Bills riding the pine in the NBA after 2 seasons instead of rolling the dice and taking a risk in the name of glory. My tardish belief is if Bill stays and DOESN'T blow out his knee, we make the NCAAs instead of the BS NIT. Shoulda woulda coulda is all that is now. Not that anything matters with BW anymore.

:powerespect:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 11:47:43 AM
Don't agree that the differences are unimportant, random townie at the bar.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Pexikan on February 04, 2010, 11:55:38 AM
:powerespect:            Not the first time, won't be the last either.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 12:54:36 PM
It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.
you're splitting hairs

I'll simplify.

Our guards will turn the ball over more next year.

Missed shots are better than turnovers.
you must have watched good will hunting last night.  do you understand what the term "splitting hairs" means, will?

Don't agree that the differences are unimportant, random townie at the bar.
you must be thinking  of new 'clams.  i'm very not random, ask any of my good friends.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 01:03:01 PM
What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

a good PG?  someone who when he gets hot can impact a game about as much as any player in the country? :dunno:
so you're saying we won't have a good point guard next year? really? why do we need a point guard?  michigancat will tell you the billion reasons why true point guards are overrated.  pullen and mcorebs will do fine.

you're overvaluing denis' once a year Texas game imo.  where was the greatest PG known to man last Saturday, where was he against UT this year?

but he went off against nebraska.  so what, we won that game without Denis.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 01:17:07 PM
It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.
you're splitting hairs

I'll simplify.

Our guards will turn the ball over more next year.

Missed shots are better than turnovers.
you must have watched good will hunting last night.  do you understand what the term "splitting hairs" means, will?

Don't agree that the differences are unimportant, random townie at the bar.
you must be thinking  of new 'clams.  i'm very not random, ask any of my good friends.

I can confirm the non-randomness of clams.  He sticks out a lot.  Also into very interesting things. 
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kougar24 on February 04, 2010, 01:21:25 PM
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:

Pullen already is the same player.  And I don't think Walker's a very good comparison to these guys.  His issues were always effort related more than anything, but his talent gave him free reign.  Pullen and Clemente go hard all the time, and for the most part play good defense, which gives them more leeway than Nick Russell or Martavious.

Also, it's stupid to think you should have the same "rules" or whatever for every player.  You don't sit Clemente or Pullen for very long to teach them lessons about shot selection.  Well, you don't if you want to win basketball games.

I was with you until you said Clemente played good D.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Broadway on February 04, 2010, 01:48:55 PM
" So, in fairness, I will first, again, point out what is right with Clemente,"

Comma Kitchen   :lol:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 02:05:25 PM
What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

a good PG?  someone who when he gets hot can impact a game about as much as any player in the country? :dunno:
so you're saying we won't have a good point guard next year? really? why do we need a point guard?  michigancat will tell you the billion reasons why true point guards are overrated.  pullen and mcorebs will do fine.

combo guards are underrated, though.  I wish every player had point guard skills, actually.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 02:50:45 PM
What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

a good PG?  someone who when he gets hot can impact a game about as much as any player in the country? :dunno:
so you're saying we won't have a good point guard next year? really? why do we need a point guard?  michigancat will tell you the billion reasons why true point guards are overrated.  pullen and mcorebs will do fine.

combo guards are underrated, though.  I wish every player had point guard skills, actually.
denis doesn't even have point guards skills though :dunno:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 02:55:48 PM
denis doesn't even have point guards skills though :dunno:

explain
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 03:23:03 PM
http://cjonline.com/sports/basketball/2010-02-04/column_what_makes_a_perfect_point_guard

 :peek:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: mcmwcat on February 04, 2010, 03:26:19 PM
http://cjonline.com/sports/basketball/2010-02-04/column_what_makes_a_perfect_point_guard

 :peek:

meek just curb stomped kitchen
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 03:26:58 PM
 :bwpopcorn:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 03:29:48 PM
http://cjonline.com/sports/basketball/2010-02-04/column_what_makes_a_perfect_point_guard

 :peek:

I like how he says he's not going to pick a side, and then he totally picks a side.

Hopefully this heats up enough for @Austin-vs-Kitchen.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: WillieWatanabe on February 04, 2010, 03:33:41 PM
can't wait to see what cole writes... :bwpopcorn:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: ChiComCat on February 04, 2010, 03:34:27 PM
http://cjonline.com/sports/basketball/2010-02-04/column_what_makes_a_perfect_point_guard

 :peek:

meek just curb stomped kitchen

I think Kitchen really has to hit back here.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: catzacker on February 04, 2010, 03:35:56 PM
holy crap.  it's about to get real.  like this, 'cept with writers.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HJrGkCIwYOg/Rt16nVQfWAI/AAAAAAAAAyc/183NQOv2quM/s400/Anchorman+The+Legend+of+Ron+Burgundy+DVD+Movie+Review.jpg)
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: ChiComCat on February 04, 2010, 03:42:36 PM
Come on Meek, we see you poking around here  :bwpopcorn:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 03:59:31 PM
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:

Pullen already is the same player.  And I don't think Walker's a very good comparison to these guys.  His issues were always effort related more than anything, but his talent gave him free reign.  Pullen and Clemente go hard all the time, and for the most part play good defense, which gives them more leeway than Nick Russell or Martavious.

Also, it's stupid to think you should have the same "rules" or whatever for every player.  You don't sit Clemente or Pullen for very long to teach them lessons about shot selection.  Well, you don't if you want to win basketball games.

I was with you until you said Clemente played good D.

The defense is better when he's on the court than when he's off.  Look at the plus/minus numbers I linked.  Only Pullen and Kelly(!) have a bigger defensive impact.

And meek was too nice to kitchen.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kougar24 on February 04, 2010, 04:15:59 PM
People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even. 

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

So who will take over that role next year? JamSam?  :ohno:

Pullen already is the same player.  And I don't think Walker's a very good comparison to these guys.  His issues were always effort related more than anything, but his talent gave him free reign.  Pullen and Clemente go hard all the time, and for the most part play good defense, which gives them more leeway than Nick Russell or Martavious.

Also, it's stupid to think you should have the same "rules" or whatever for every player.  You don't sit Clemente or Pullen for very long to teach them lessons about shot selection.  Well, you don't if you want to win basketball games.

I was with you until you said Clemente played good D.

The defense is better when he's on the court than when he's off.  Look at the plus/minus numbers I linked.  Only Pullen and Kelly(!) have a bigger defensive impact.

And meek was too nice to kitchen.

Denis has a "net defense" number of -3.0 in that thing you linked. I have no idea how to interpret that.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 04:23:24 PM

Denis has a "net defense" number of -3.0 in that thing you linked. I have no idea how to interpret that.

It means that when he was on the court, KSU's opponents scored 3 fewer points per 100 possessions than when he was off.  In other words, KSU's defense is better when he is on the court.  You shouldn't judge his defense based off a Morningstar three and backdoor just like you shouldn't judge his offense based on 44@UT.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kougar24 on February 04, 2010, 04:28:32 PM

Denis has a "net defense" number of -3.0 in that thing you linked. I have no idea how to interpret that.

It means that when he was on the court, KSU's opponents scored 3 fewer points per 100 possessions than when he was off.  In other words, KSU's defense is better when he is on the court.  You shouldn't judge his defense based off a Morningstar three and backdoor just like you shouldn't judge his offense based on 44@UT.

Oh, I agree, but I've watched his D all year....those weren't isolated incidents. He's really remarkably slow laterally for how fast he is vertically, and his help D leaves something to be desired as well (often out of position, doesn't cheat off his man away from the ball, loses track of the ball or his man, etc.).

I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 04:34:02 PM
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: felix rex on February 04, 2010, 04:35:49 PM
Quote
If you don't like the way K-State plays, fine. But understand that K-State ranks 16th nationally in offensive efficiency, and if you don't like that, Doc Sadler and his 125th-ranked offense might be available after the season. (All those high-percentage shots did wonders for the Devaney Center atmosphere, lemme tell you.)

 :lol:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kougar24 on February 04, 2010, 04:36:18 PM
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 04:38:03 PM
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

kougz,
that's dumb.
your friend,
sd
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 04:38:15 PM
denis doesn't even have point guards skills though :dunno:

explain
low BBIQ, terrible handles, ok vision, selfish.

this really has nothing to do with X's and O's over talent as meek contends in his article.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 04:38:58 PM
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.
it certainly does but the pro-clemente contingent won't allow agree
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kougar24 on February 04, 2010, 04:39:45 PM
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

kougz,
that's dumb.
your friend,
sd

it's actually very logical
your enemy
k24
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 04:42:16 PM
denis doesn't even have point guards skills though :dunno:

explain
low BBIQ, terrible handles, ok vision, selfish.

this really has nothing to do with X's and O's over talent as meek contends in his article.

I don't agree with the lbbiq or the handles.  Honestly, if he was shooting a slightly higher percentage from the field I don't think anyone would be bitching about his play.  He has a good A/TO ratio.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 04:43:49 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 04:44:05 PM
All you Kitchenettes need to GOOMF.

I'm with Meek.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 04:46:04 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010&f=B12).  And very few primary ball handlers.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: ChiComCat on February 04, 2010, 04:47:28 PM
I think a lot of the problem is that some of his passes (especially in transition) are too fancy and complicated for our stone-handed bigs to catch.  Although he probably should've accounted for this by now, its not entirely his fault.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 04:48:34 PM
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

Is your gut inherently flawed because you're dumb?  Yes.

Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

His TO's are really low for as much as he "handles" the ball.  He probably has the best TO Rate for PG's in the league.  (or at least second to Keaton Page)
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: felix rex on February 04, 2010, 04:50:04 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Yep. He makes plays with speed and some vision. But he's not a great decision maker or ball-handler. But he doesn't need to be, because he's super fast and gets really, really hot sometimes.

If we had a Morningstar looking dude with a terrible haircut who only shot when he was wide open and passed almost every time...and had the exact same stats as Denis, the GPC crowd would want to retire his jersey.

People are just complaining about "the way" Denis gets it done, and that just annoys the eff out of me.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Levi on February 04, 2010, 04:50:48 PM
Honestly, if he was shooting a slightly higher percentage from the field I don't think anyone would be bitching about his play.  

But he's not. And that plus this  "Others are frustrated by his quick shots and suspect defense." equals this  :bang:.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 04:51:08 PM

His TO's are really low for as much as he "handles" the ball.  He probably has the best TO Rate for PG's in the league.  (or at least second to Keaton Page)

See my link.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kougar24 on February 04, 2010, 04:52:05 PM
I'm glad he isn't killing us statistically on D, but I'm comfortable in my personal assessment that he's a pretty poor defender.

Does my point stand, despite your gut feel that ignores statistics?  Yes.

Is the stat you linked inherently flawed in that it doesn't take into account when Clems is subbed out, who he's subbed out for, and how the matchups on the court shift when he's in or out? Yes.

Is your gut inherently flawed because you're dumb?  Yes.

Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

His TO's are really low for as much as he "handles" the ball.  He probably has the best TO Rate for PG's in the league.  (or at least second to Keaton Page)

So you watch Clems and think, "Man, what a good defender"? Be honest.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 05:05:05 PM
So you watch Clems and think, "Man, what a good defender"? Be honest.

Well, when I say he's good, it's mostly because he doesn't make a lot of mistakes and generally fulfills his responsibilities.  I totally disagree that he's out of position often.  He's rarely caught sleeping on transition D, his rotations are good for the most part - You don't see him "give away" many baskets like the freshmen often do.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 05:13:25 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010&f=B12).  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 05:19:32 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010&f=B12).  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 05:31:45 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010&f=B12).  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Let me make this extremely simple for you, stat guy - twice this season, in games I've watched on television, Denis has had the ball stolen from him once he crossed midcourt or was about to cross midcourt. That's two more times than I've seen that happen to Kalin Lucas, Sherron Collins, etc. It has just stuck in my head. I'm not discounting your precious TORate, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: weird roberts foam finger on February 04, 2010, 05:37:12 PM
There are two ways to evaluate a player:

1. Eyeball test.  Scouts do this, I'm told, to determine a player's attributes, tendencies, strengths, weaknesses and overall abilities.
2. Stats.  Coaches and analysts love this stuff, since it gives them ammunition for the things they want to work on that they see from No. 1.

To get a full picture, you really need both.  As fans, most of us will never be able to adequately do No. 1, therefore No. 2 becomes our crutch.  Problematically, it doesn't tell the "whole story", but this is what makes us fans -- partial truths clung to as gospel.  Here endeth the lesson.

Oh yeah, and this argument is dumb.  Sys was right -- last summer was the time to whine about Clemente.  He ain't changing his spots.  He will take mind-numbing shots, he will hit pretty floaters, he will play average defense and he will mostly stay away from turnovers.  So beat your head against the wall if you want, but I'll spend my time worrying about Frank's contract instead.   :ohno:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 05:51:03 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010&f=B12).  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Let me make this extremely simple for you, stat guy - twice this season, in games I've watched on television, Denis has had the ball stolen from him once he crossed midcourt or was about to cross midcourt. That's two more times than I've seen that happen to Kalin Lucas, Sherron Collins, etc. It has just stuck in my head. I'm not discounting your precious TORate, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

What does this prove about Collins play in 2009? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKfHEmgaKRA)  Nothing, regardless of your precious eyeball test.

Besides that, nobody on Earth is saying Clemente is the best PG in the country, deserving All-American status, or is going into the NBA, so can we put that strawman away please?

It was silly to say he gets the ripped often. 
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 05:56:24 PM
Essentially, your argument, based on stats, is that he has a great handle.

My original point - go back and check, if you'd like - was that he doesn't have a great handle, and I based that on what I've observed.

Feel free to continue the argument, but I don't think there's a resolution.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: slimz on February 04, 2010, 06:10:51 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010&f=B12).  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Let me make this extremely simple for you, stat guy - twice this season, in games I've watched on television, Denis has had the ball stolen from him once he crossed midcourt or was about to cross midcourt. That's two more times than I've seen that happen to Kalin Lucas, Sherron Collins, etc. It has just stuck in my head. I'm not discounting your precious TORate, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I clearly recall those two incidents, as well.  Here's a theory on the Denis "handles" issue:

The main weapon Denis relies upon for ball security is his speed.  Thus, we don't see him zig-zag with a crossover or back the ball down the court and over the half-court line, a la Clent Stewart, or lower his shoulder while dribbling behind himself before going into a superspin, a la Sherron.  He doesn't usually give the defender time to get set up to pick his pocket.  Also, as a result, he hasn't had to work on developing some of those ball-protection techniques.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 06:33:15 PM
some people just don't get it...

point guards with handles don't get ripped the way he does, they don't rely on a left handed forearm into their defender every time down the floor to make space and protect the ball.  they don't dribble at their ear level with their back hunched down like a turtle.  elite point guards go past their man and break down defenses (see Collins).  elite point guards can create their own shots (hint- outside of the transition game, denis can't create his own shot, despite what you want to believe).  on-ball screens are denis clemente's best friend.

LowBBIQ- he doesn't know when to shoot and when we need to play the clock (see 2 for 1 vs. Baylor), doesn't understand a good shot vs. a bad one.  doesn't understand his teammates strengths and weaknesses (behind the back to CK on the break vs. NU).

keep your stats and use them as blindfolds.   -with that I will depart this thread b/c I know, after repeated attempts, I cannot help you understand these simple concepts.

btw, nice work jmart, levi, slimz, felix,  k24 and whoever else agreed with me in this thread.  LOL.  :)
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 06:58:27 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010&f=B12).  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Let me make this extremely simple for you, stat guy - twice this season, in games I've watched on television, Denis has had the ball stolen from him once he crossed midcourt or was about to cross midcourt. That's two more times than I've seen that happen to Kalin Lucas, Sherron Collins, etc. It has just stuck in my head. I'm not discounting your precious TORate, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

Dude, that happened twice to Sherron in the last minute of regulation vs. KSU.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 07:00:48 PM
When you say "don't get ripped the way he does" are you referring to the two times Jeff remembered or are there more?  
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: slimz on February 04, 2010, 07:02:36 PM
Gets ripped often

Quote
way too many times

Quote
twice this season

 :peek:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: austin_meek on February 04, 2010, 07:03:30 PM
 they don't dribble at their ear level with their back hunched down like a turtle. 

Leave Clent Stewart out of this.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: FP TC etc. on February 04, 2010, 07:04:01 PM
some people just don't get it...

point guards with handles don't get ripped the way he does, they don't rely on a left handed forearm into their defender every time down the floor to make space and protect the ball.  they don't dribble at their ear level with their back hunched down like a turtle.  elite point guards go past their man and break down defenses (see Collins).  elite point guards can create their own shots (hint- outside of the transition game, denis can't create his own shot, despite what you want to believe).  on-ball screens are denis clemente's best friend.

LowBBIQ- he doesn't know when to shoot and when we need to play the clock (see 2 for 1 vs. Baylor), doesn't understand a good shot vs. a bad one.  doesn't understand his teammates strengths and weaknesses (behind the back to CK on the break vs. NU).

keep your stats and use them as blindfolds.   -with that I will depart this thread b/c I know, after repeated attempts, I cannot help you understand these simple concepts.

btw, nice work jmart, levi, slimz, felix,  k24 and whoever else agreed with me in this thread.  LOL.  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3xuS1G0wC4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3xuS1G0wC4)

The 2 plays after the 1 min mark.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 07:04:22 PM
 they don't dribble at their ear level with their back hunched down like a turtle. 

Leave Clent Stewart out of this.

Blake Young was the leaniest.  
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 07:04:50 PM
Look, if the consensus here is that Denis has a good, not great, handle - cool. No shame in that. It's just not true, but believe what you want. It's a free country.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 07:07:52 PM
For a streaky shooting, shot forcing, quick tempered, average defending combo guard, Clem has great handles.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 04, 2010, 07:09:08 PM
For a streaky shooting, shot forcing, quick tempered, average defending combo guard, Clem has great handles.

lol
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Kat Kid on February 04, 2010, 07:11:18 PM
Look, if the consensus here is that Denis has a good, not great, handle - cool. No shame in that. It's just not true, but believe what you want. It's a free country.

I guess it all depends on what we are talking about here.  Can Denis easily create his own shot off the dribble/does he have a crossover/does he dribble too far out in front on fast breaks/not have solid pgbbiq?  Yes, agreed.

But saying that he gets constantly picked off for steals is misleading.  Maybe you were overselling what you thought to be an obvious underlying truth, but you got caught out as bad as Denis ever has on that first post.  You can modify, and I will agree that Denis has some serious capital "P" PG problems, but don't think for a second that your opening post didn't just get taken for a dunk at the other end.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 07:14:18 PM
Not a great handle at all. Gets ripped often in man-to-man.

Often?  No he doesn't.

Not many ahead of him on this list (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010&f=B12).  And very few primary ball handlers.

I commented on his handle, not ball security. To me, there are way too many times when he's dribbling over halfcourt when someone challenges him and takes the ball away. I've never seen that happen to elite point guards. Just an observation, nothing statistical to back it up. I think that's something, if he has any designs on playing professionally, he'll have to shore up big-time.

You have nothing statistical to back that assertion up, because it doesn't happen very often.  If he was prone to giving up steals, he'd have a worse TORate.

Let me make this extremely simple for you, stat guy - twice this season, in games I've watched on television, Denis has had the ball stolen from him once he crossed midcourt or was about to cross midcourt. That's two more times than I've seen that happen to Kalin Lucas, Sherron Collins, etc. It has just stuck in my head. I'm not discounting your precious TORate, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

Dude, that happened twice to Sherron in the last minute of regulation vs. KSU.
Dude no it didn't.  He fell- he was cramped.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 07:15:25 PM
Look, if the consensus here is that Denis has a good, not great, handle - cool. No shame in that. It's just not true, but believe what you want. It's a free country.

I just think it's irrelevant to the discussion (which is to prove Kitchen's an idiot).  Clemente's style of play and decision making aren't hurting the team.  Could he get better?  Sure.  Every player could.  Singling Clemente out is stupid, and therefore, so is Kitchen.


Dude, that happened twice to Sherron in the last minute of regulation vs. KSU.
Dude no it didn't.  He fell- he was cramped.

lols
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 07:16:29 PM
Look, if the consensus here is that Denis has a good, not great, handle - cool. No shame in that. It's just not true, but believe what you want. It's a free country.

I guess it all depends on what we are talking about here.  Can Denis easily create his own shot off the dribble/does he have a crossover/does he dribble too far out in front on fast breaks/not have solid pgbbiq?  Yes, agreed.

But saying that he gets constantly picked off for steals is misleading.  Maybe you were overselling what you thought to be an obvious underlying truth, but you got caught out as bad as Denis ever has on that first post.  You can modify, and I will agree that Denis has some serious capital "P" PG problems, but don't think for a second that your opening post didn't just get taken for a dunk at the other end.

I disagree. I said he doesn't have a great handle. And I said it happened often - far more often than it should. I stand by what I wrote.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: pissclams on February 04, 2010, 07:16:54 PM
When you say "don't get ripped the way he does" are you referring to the two times Jeff remembered or are there more? 
ya, just those two times jmart is talking about, he's only been ripped twice.  i'm sure there's a stat out there that proves it.  :users:

Look, if the consensus here is that Denis has a good, not great, handle - cool. No shame in that. It's just not true, but believe what you want. It's a free country.

I just think it's irrelevant to the discussion (which is to prove Kitchen's an idiot).  Clemente's style of play and decision making aren't hurting the team.  Could he get better?  Sure.  Every player could.  Singling Clemente out is stupid, and therefore, so is Kitchen.


Dude, that happened twice to Sherron in the last minute of regulation vs. KSU.
Dude no it didn't.  He fell- he was cramped.

lols
you're right,  clemente = collins  :barf:   collins falls down all the time.  
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: michigancat on February 04, 2010, 07:18:02 PM
you're right,  clemente = collins  :barf:   collins falls down all the time. 

Collins is way, way, way better than Clemente.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 07:22:50 PM
demclems is an outstanding shooter. I saw him drop 44 in Austin last year.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Kat Kid on February 04, 2010, 07:36:36 PM
you're right,  clemente = collins  :barf:   collins falls down all the time. 

Collins is way, way, way better than Clemente.

This.  And does Jay Mart not get the endless list of losers that we have to compare him to?  Stew?  Blake?  Schwarzendrubber?  Hart?  Larry (I LIKED LARRY!)? The one year guys? Peete (AND I LIKED PEETE!)?  Nick (AND I LIKED NICK!)?  DEZ (AND I LIKED DEZ!)?

Are any of those guys an improvement over Clems?  I'd hear arguments on two of them, and neither was a "P" as in point.

I mean the entire argument is infantile.  Compared to rough ridin' what?  Is this why we can't rough ridin' have rough ridin' nice things???!!!
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: JMart on February 04, 2010, 07:54:32 PM
you're right,  clemente = collins  :barf:   collins falls down all the time. 

Collins is way, way, way better than Clemente.

This.  And does Jay Mart not get the endless list of losers that we have to compare him to?  Stew?  Blake?  Schwarzendrubber?  Hart?  Larry (I LIKED LARRY!)? The one year guys? Peete (AND I LIKED PEETE!)?  Nick (AND I LIKED NICK!)?  DEZ (AND I LIKED DEZ!)?

Are any of those guys an improvement over Clems?  I'd hear arguments on two of them, and neither was a "P" as in point.

I mean the entire argument is infantile.  Compared to fracking what?  Is this why we can't fracking have fracking nice things???!!!

Relax. My whole point was he doesn't have a good handle. That was the extent of what I said.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Levi on February 04, 2010, 08:03:26 PM
demclems is an outstanding shooter. I saw him drop 44 in Austin last year.

Is this serious?
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 04, 2010, 08:10:14 PM
demclems is an outstanding shooter. I saw him drop 44 in Austin last year.

Is this serious?


Of course it is.  I also saw him shoot really well on TV in the UNLV and Nebraska games.  Really stuck in my head.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: kso_FAN on February 04, 2010, 08:11:11 PM
Maybe its just amazing to me that we can pick apart the 2nd/3rd best player on the #10/11 team in the country and that team is K-State, but sometimes I have to look again to make sure the name of the player is Denis Clemente and not Richie Terry.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Levi on February 04, 2010, 08:11:53 PM
demclems is an outstanding shooter. I saw him drop 44 in Austin last year.

Is this serious?


Of course it is.  I also saw him shoot really well on TV in the UNLV and Nebraska games.  Really stuck in my head.

Ah, I see now. Clever.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: mcmwcat on February 04, 2010, 08:39:01 PM
collins has amazing handles
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: slimz on February 04, 2010, 09:25:04 PM
demclems is an outstanding shooter. I saw him drop 44 in Austin last year.

Is this serious?


Of course it is.  I also saw him shoot really well on TV in the UNLV and Nebraska games.  Really stuck in my head.

Have you ever seen Sherron Collins or Kalin Lucas ever score 44 in a game?   :dunno:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Cire on February 04, 2010, 10:00:48 PM
I like Kitchen's write ups.  They are a million times better than anyone else covering KSU right now.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: nicname on February 04, 2010, 10:26:56 PM
 Out side of Clemente, Ell Roberson is the only player so maligned by our fans, yet so responsible for his teams success in KSU history.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Cire on February 04, 2010, 10:34:25 PM
Out side of Clemente, Ell Roberson is the only player so maligned by our fans, yet so responsible for his teams success in KSU history.

Who doesn't like Ell?
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: RTB on February 04, 2010, 11:45:43 PM
Regardless of Clementes handles. The dude is a horrible perimeter defender. For how fast he is forward-back, his side to side movement is embarrassing. Next game watch him and he is constantly chasing his defender. And as for not being out of position, please go back and watch the KU game and you'll see when we're in a 3-2 zone when Moringstar nails that 3 from the corner end of the second half that just killed us. Watch it and tell me WTF Denny is doing on that play???? Just completely left him.

With that said, the dude can score in bunches and is a huge x factor when it comes to transition offense. But that's about where it begins and ends. I still like him, but we'll be just fine without him next year.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: nicname on February 04, 2010, 11:52:16 PM
Ell got his fair share of criticism, perhaps Jonathon Beasley would have been the better example.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: sys on February 05, 2010, 04:37:49 AM
lots of purportedly hbbiq people on the wrong side of this ball handling strawman.  lol @ the "i've seen him picked twice, therefore he's a poor ball handler" argument.  and lol @ people that didn't understand sleepfighter blowing that to sheds.  and lol even more @ people that still don't understand that kitchen is a poor writer (and probably fairly stupid).


the stats are irrefutable.  this year, clemente has handled the ball a ton and rarely turned it over.  whether he's been able to do that because he's a great ball handler or because he's a poor ball handler who somehow has managed to compensate is irrelevant.  the end result is exactly what you want from a point guard.  or any other player for that matter.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: sys on February 05, 2010, 05:06:53 AM
'grats clemsey.

http://www.latinbasket.com/Puerto-Rico/basketball.asp?NewsID=183553
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: mcmwcat on February 05, 2010, 07:53:33 AM
the stats are irrefutable.  this year, clemente has handled the ball a ton and rarely turned it over.  whether he's been able to do that because he's a great ball handler or because he's a poor ball handler who somehow has managed to compensate is irrelevant.  the end result is exactly what you want from a point guard.  or any other player for that matter.

my thoughts exactly.  it would be nice if he could slice through the defense like Collins going between the legs and switching direction on a dime but he can't do that.  he uses his first step and strait ahead speed to get into the middle of the defense.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: felix rex on February 05, 2010, 08:54:14 AM
People are just complaining about "the way" Denis gets it done, and that just annoys the shazbot! out of me.  :rolleyes:

whether he's been able to do that because he's a great ball handler or because he's a poor ball handler who somehow has managed to compensate is irrelevant.  the end result is exactly what you want from a point guard.  or any other player for that matter.

QFTs
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: sys on February 05, 2010, 04:29:35 PM
kitchen & meek with a passive aggressive love fest.  more corcoran, please.

http://cjonline.com/radio/podcast



also, dumstick makes his triumphant return to ksufans.com.

http://www.ksufans.com/forums/index.php?topic=50163.0
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: SleepFighter on February 05, 2010, 05:05:01 PM
kitchen & meek with a passive aggressive love fest.  more corcoran, please.

http://cjonline.com/radio/podcast


JFC.  Awful.  Only statistics brought up so far were the stupid incorrect ones that MICat brought up on the first page.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Kat Kid on February 05, 2010, 05:17:43 PM
kinda disappointing.
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: ksudrew on February 06, 2010, 12:09:25 AM
you're right,  clemente = collins  :barf:   collins falls down all the time. 

Collins is way, way, way better than Clemente.

collins - 31.7 minutes per game, 4.1 assists per game, 2.0 turnovers per game, 1.2 steals per game, 15.5 points per game

clemente - 33.5 minutes per game, 4.0 assists per game, 1.8 turnovers per game, 1.0 steals per game, 15.0 points per game

 :dunno:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: steve dave on February 17, 2010, 07:39:34 AM
Denis Stats from big time KC media big timers (http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/1909)
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: catzacker on February 17, 2010, 08:55:02 AM
Denis Stats from big time KC media big timers (http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/1909)

There's a lot of numbers and stuff and it gets confusing so I'll sum up the article so people don't have to read:

Dax, how does my ass taste?

Sincerely,
Denis
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Mikeyis4dcats on February 17, 2010, 08:56:06 AM
Sherron Collins is always falling down and cramping and stuff.  All the time.    I saw it with my own eyes.   TWICE!
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: Mikeyis4dcats on February 17, 2010, 08:57:47 AM
Denis Stats from big time KC media big timers (http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/1909)

OMG!   JMart is wrong?     :bitchslap:
Title: Re: Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.
Post by: mcmwcat on February 17, 2010, 10:05:40 AM
Denis Stats from big time KC media big timers (http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/1909)

man!  clemente is awesome!  :ksu:

like it when he like throws up crazy shots and all old people are like wtf is he doing.  and i'm like  :love: