Kitchen reverts back to his ksufans.com days.

[pissclams]

I think a good number of anti-powertards defend Denis because it's the cool thing to do over here.

People take Denis for granted more than about any player I can remember.  I think we'll be a very good team next year, but we will miss a lot of the things that Denis does.  The people that say he won't be missed at all are the ones that are probably the silliness.

And let's be clear, much of the thought about Denis stems from an old school basketball philosophy, a SLTH philosophy even.  

Is Clemente's game without error?  Not at all.  But I said it the other day; I'm betting Frank will always have a Clemente-type player (or Walker-type) that earns his trust and gets more freedom than anyone else.  But these guys also set the mentality of the team and the way Frank wants the team to play; and I think having a Clemente or Walker type is just going to be part of any Frank Martin coached team.

What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone?  

Also- Pullen today is a much better player than Denis ever will be. They aren't the same player, dumb comparo.

I like Denis.  

I think we'll miss his speed in transition and his ability to score.  Irving/Russell/whoever takes over the other guard spot won't be able to replace it.  

That doesn't mean we won't be better though, b/c guys like McGruder, Kelly, Samuels will get better to and offset Denis production.  

And then there is leadership, attitude, etc. but that's more an intangible thing and can be replaced, but you never know.

intangibles?  sounds like a SLTP to me.  

speed in transition?  he turns the ball over a lot in transition if you haven't noticed, he doesn't score as much in transition as you think he might, he jacks up shots from 23 and misses, a lot.  any player can be told to haul down the court at full speed.

leadership?  pullen already has taken that role from Denis this season.


I like Denis too, but I'm not going to make him into more than he is.

[catzacker]

http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

I don't know what the word for it is.  It's not "racist" but it's an "ist".  It's this delusional/mythical memory of how basketball "used to be played", specifically at KSU but in a lot of people's cases they try to project their experiences playing HS basketball onto major college basketball.  They want everyone to hit FT's like Steve Henson, when in reality his FT rate was rare, then and now.  They want all coaches to coach like Hartman, when the reality is that while he is the most successful KSU basketball coach, he had terrible teams and most of his good teams were driven by the same thing good teams are now...talent.  They want everyone to take good shots like Mike Evans and Chuckie Williams did, and in the same breathe they'll say "they didn't have the 3pt line back then but they were chucking it further out than the 3pt line" as if those would be good shots now.  

[felix rex]

I blame the movie Hoosiers.  Everything Gene Hackman did, was like, the miracle formula for winning basketball games "the right way".  Except for the technicals and ejections.

Doc would have chased Jimmy Chitwood off for good.

[steve dave]

LBBIQ Denis Analysis:

Love him.  Seems to force teams to scramble back on defense even off made baskets possibly keeping them off the offensive glass  Great at creating his own shot though it hasn't been falling as much as it used to.  Has the ability to go off for 20+ which Martavious will never have.  Plays bad defense sometimes.  Seems to do well at breaking press.  Like when they try to trap him at halfcourt and he just leans into the defender forcing a call by the official and forcing them to stop trying to trap at half court.  Like his runner which he can get whenever he wants (goes back to creating his own shot I guess).  Isn't afraid to shoot when open early in possession which is what we want to do according to Frank (raises the number of possessions? ).  A:TO ratio is respectible in relation to the amount of sh1t he gets about it.  Don't know why this is.  Possibly our fans hate flashy turnovers and would rather have a bounce pass out of bounds 25 seconds into the shot clock  Probably some other stuff that I can't put into words because I have LBBIQ.  

[kso_FAN]

intangibles?  sounds like a SLTP to me.  

speed in transition?  he turns the ball over a lot in transition if you haven't noticed, he doesn't score as much in transition as you think he might, he jacks up shots from 23 and misses, a lot.  any player can be told to haul down the court at full speed.

leadership?  pullen already has taken that role from Denis this season.


I like Denis too, but I'm not going to make him into more than he is.

Its all good.  

We won't completely know "what he is" until next year anyway.  I hope I am making him more than he is.

[michigancat]

speed in transition?  he turns the ball over a lot in transition if you haven't noticed, he doesn't score as much in transition as you think he might, he jacks up shots from 23 and misses, a lot.  any player can be told to haul down the court at full speed.

He doesn't turn the ball over a lot in transition.  And the offense is A LOT better when he's on the floor than when he's off:

http://basketball-statistics.com/blog1/category/ncaa-plus-minus/

[Dugout DickStone]

http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.  

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

I blame the movie Hoosiers.  Everything Gene Hackman did, was like, the miracle formula for winning basketball games "the right way".  Except for the technicals and ejections.

Banging the sister of one of his players was pretty jinked up too...



I'm with Rusty.  Denis is going to leave some crap on the court both good and bad but the good outweighs the bad.  I expect him to have a strong second half.  There is no comparo with Walker.  Frank loved Walker because it is literally impossible not to love Bill Walker.  He loves Denis because Denis bleeds for this team.

[Broadway]

Our fans are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). 

But sd, all fans are Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)! 

No, ours are moreso.

QFT. 

[sys]

i wish manbeck would pick a fight with kitchen so it'd be easy to pick sides.  overall, i'm pretty happy that kitchen wrote a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) blog entry, it feels good to hate him.

[WillieWatanabe]

sys gave the best description of clemente in another thread...but im too lazy to find it.

[Pexikan]

Denis assets to this team are leadership and swagger. As far as his offensive game, he's a streaky outside shooter and he's got a decent runner/tear-drop shot. He needs to work at running the point better and  getting to the rim more when we are in our half court sets. He has to stop forcing shots whether he's hot or cold. He lacks patience. He still has a bit of the mindstate that he's our go-to scorer fm last season IMO. Couldn't be more wrong. On defense, I don't see where all this talk is about him being a good defender comes from. Is it because he's fast and stays with his guy when we man-to-man our opponents? That's ok, but not that great because his man still gets off uncontested shots. He doesn't play his passing lanes as well as he did last year. How many passes has he intercepted this season? I bet its between 0 and 1. He's too passive and lets our opponents run their offense instead of trying to go for steals and forcing turnovers. This may get more fouls called for reaching, but its worth a try now and then. To summerize, he's only aggressive on offense. As our point guard and fearless leader, he should find ways to help us instead of just scoring.

[JMart]

http://kansasstate.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=419&tid=131184678&mid=131184678&sid=889&style=2

They are 8 deep and growing with a list of posts disagreeing with Rusty.   

Yeah, this pretty much proves that somewhere deep inside a large number of fans really want a SLTH as well.  They want to win, but most gravitate to a SLTH line of thinking, probably b/c that's how they played at their 2A HS or whatever.

I blame the movie Hoosiers.  Everything Gene Hackman did, was like, the miracle formula for winning basketball games "the right way".  Except for the technicals and ejections.

Banging the sister of one of his players was pretty jinked up too...



I'm with Rusty.  Denis is going to leave some crap on the court both good and bad but the good outweighs the bad.  I expect him to have a strong second half.  There is no comparo with Walker.  Frank loved Walker because it is literally impossible not to love Bill Walker.  He loves Denis because Denis bleeds for this team.

Great point about the sister that never gets brought up.

Bill Walker was an undeniable force of nature, good and bad. The coaches loved him, yes, but they weren't exactly pissed when he left, either.

[Pexikan]

Frank wasn't too happy that Bill left. Basically came out and said he had more to improve on. I believed Frank too. We sure could have used him last season, man.

[pissclams]

Leadership and swagger, a book by Ron Prince.

[Pexikan]

Maybe I'm putting my foot in my mouth now. Franks said he should go pro. I just can't believe Martin would let go a player as good as Bill Walker.

[SleepFighter]

It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.  

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.

[pissclams]

It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.

you're splitting hairs

[Pexikan]

Jmart, am I to assume that Bill wasn't "buying in" to Franks coaching? One would think that BW added to our team last year could have made us more dangerous.

[SleepFighter]

It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.

you're splitting hairs

I'll simplify.

Our guards will turn the ball over more next year.

Missed shots are better than turnovers.

[steve dave]

Maybe I'm putting my foot in my mouth now. Franks said he should go pro. I just can't believe Martin would let go a player as good as Bill Walker.

Frank said more than that.  I was talking to Frank one on one when a 60'ish year old powerespect walked up to him and told him Bill shouldn't go pro because he wasn't ready.  Frank told him, "That is bullshit.  The kid is one more knee injury away from never getting paid to play basketball.  He has to go pro." This was before Bill had even announced that he was leaving.  Frank is the anti-Bill Self in that regard.  Are you the guy that walked up to Frank?

[pissclams]

It's very doubtful that whoever takes over primary ball handling duties next year will have a TORate as low as Denis.   

The idea that a transition shot is the same as a turnover is stupid on it's face.  Not many passes out of bounds have a 30%+ chance of granting 3 points to the team turning the ball over.  Also, it's much harder to rebound a turnover.

you're splitting hairs

I'll simplify.

Our guards will turn the ball over more next year.

Missed shots are better than turnovers.

you must have watched good will hunting last night.  do you understand what the term "splitting hairs" means, will?

[Pexikan]

Not the same guy, but I'm still greedy about this team. Yea Bill would be fracked after another knee injury. Take the money and run. I'm a realist so I accept that. I'm pissed Bills riding the pine in the NBA after 2 seasons instead of rolling the dice and taking a risk in the name of glory. My tardish belief is if Bill stays and DOESN'T blow out his knee, we make the NCAAs instead of the BS NIT. Shoulda woulda coulda is all that is now. Not that anything matters with BW anymore.

[JMart]

Dude, he wasn't coming back regardless, OK? The program was lucky he stuck around when Huggs left. Everyone knew when he did it would be for one more year only.

[michigancat]

Not the same guy, but I'm still greedy about this team. Yea Bill would be fracked after another knee injury. Take the money and run. I'm a realist so I accept that. I'm pissed Bills riding the pine in the NBA after 2 seasons instead of rolling the dice and taking a risk in the name of glory. My tardish belief is if Bill stays and DOESN'T blow out his knee, we make the NCAAs instead of the BS NIT. Shoulda woulda coulda is all that is now. Not that anything matters with BW anymore.

I have a random theory that KSU w/ Bill last season = OU w/ WWIII this season.  I have nothing to back it up, but I wonder.

[mcmwcat]

What are those things that we'll miss when he's gone? 

a good PG?  someone who when he gets hot can impact a game about as much as any player in the country?