Author Topic: Is it really racism...  (Read 32626 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #175 on: May 25, 2018, 03:50:45 PM »
no one thought that concert chick was motivated by, or promulgating, hatred, michigancat.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Trim

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #176 on: May 25, 2018, 03:55:08 PM »
mostly unrelated anecdote that i want to tell anyway:


scene: me, in mexico, being introduced to a friend of a friend of a friend.

friend - this is whatever he name was.
him - hello, everyone calls me "el negro".
me - hello, i'm sys.
him, proud of his knowledge of colloquial american english - you would call me "the n-word".
me, internally - uh, no.  no i would not.
me, externally - mejor hablamos en espanol.

:lol:

Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #177 on: May 25, 2018, 04:04:49 PM »
https://twitter.com/Luckwman/status/862280151358418944

Basically the argument is a mixture of social decorum as well as the morally repugnant origins of the word and why the intention doesn't matter.

her entire thread was about describing and placing in context the social norms around the uses of the words n-word/nigga.  at no point did she provide an ethical or moral argument regarding usage.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #178 on: May 25, 2018, 04:08:00 PM »
no one thought that concert chick was motivated by, or promulgating, hatred, michigancat.

well, I'm sure someone did. But regardless, if she wasn't necessarily motivated by hate, she was definitely dismissive or flippant about how her words might affect a minority group. Her lack of concern for how it might be perceived makes it mildly racist IMO.


Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #179 on: May 25, 2018, 04:12:18 PM »
https://twitter.com/Luckwman/status/862280151358418944

Basically the argument is a mixture of social decorum as well as the morally repugnant origins of the word and why the intention doesn't matter.

her entire thread was about describing and placing in context the social norms around the uses of the words n-word/nigga.  at no point did she provide an ethical or moral argument regarding usage.

I think the fact that it evolved to direct hate and disgust toward black people is a moral argument against its use. If you disagree, you're just picking nits.

https://twitter.com/Luckwman/status/862299193293103104

https://twitter.com/Luckwman/status/862301496452550656
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 04:15:44 PM by michigancat »

Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #180 on: May 25, 2018, 04:12:45 PM »
i thought she behaved inappropriately.  it definitely helped me categorize her social status, educational background and desirability as an acquaintance.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #181 on: May 25, 2018, 04:14:05 PM »
etymology is not a moral argument.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #182 on: May 25, 2018, 04:29:34 PM »
no one thought that concert chick was motivated by, or promulgating, hatred, michigancat.

well, I'm sure someone did. But regardless, if she wasn't necessarily motivated by hate, she was definitely dismissive or flippant about how her words might affect a minority group. Her lack of concern for how it might be perceived makes it mildly racist IMO.

I don't believe that singing along with the lyrics in any song constitutes an endorsement of those lyrics. The girl probably should have turned down the offer to come up on stage, because being up there put her in a situation where she had to make the decision to either censor the original author of the lyrics during his live performance, or sing the lyrics and piss off a bunch of people. I mostly just feel sorry for her.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #183 on: May 25, 2018, 04:36:06 PM »
etymology is not a moral argument.

It's relevant if the moral question is "does the use of a word negatively impact the feelings of others"?

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #184 on: May 25, 2018, 04:41:39 PM »
no one thought that concert chick was motivated by, or promulgating, hatred, michigancat.

well, I'm sure someone did. But regardless, if she wasn't necessarily motivated by hate, she was definitely dismissive or flippant about how her words might affect a minority group. Her lack of concern for how it might be perceived makes it mildly racist IMO.

I don't believe that singing along with the lyrics in any song constitutes an endorsement of those lyrics. The girl probably should have turned down the offer to come up on stage, because being up there put her in a situation where she had to make the decision to either censor the original author of the lyrics during his live performance, or sing the lyrics and piss off a bunch of people. I mostly just feel sorry for her.


I didn't say she was endorsing the lyrics. But censoring herself seems like a pretty easy decision. :dunno:

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #185 on: May 25, 2018, 04:45:15 PM »
no one thought that concert chick was motivated by, or promulgating, hatred, michigancat.

well, I'm sure someone did. But regardless, if she wasn't necessarily motivated by hate, she was definitely dismissive or flippant about how her words might affect a minority group. Her lack of concern for how it might be perceived makes it mildly racist IMO.

I don't believe that singing along with the lyrics in any song constitutes an endorsement of those lyrics. The girl probably should have turned down the offer to come up on stage, because being up there put her in a situation where she had to make the decision to either censor the original author of the lyrics during his live performance, or sing the lyrics and piss off a bunch of people. I mostly just feel sorry for her.


I didn't say she was endorsing the lyrics. But censoring herself seems like a pretty easy decision. :dunno:

She wouldn't have really been censoring herself. She would be censoring Kendrick Lamar, since the lyrics are his. I can see how that might not be an obvious decision, since she was singing with him at his show. It's not unreasonable to view an invitation to the stage as permission to sing the lyrics as written. It was pretty clearly a poor decision on her part to sing the lyrics, but I don't see it as wrong on any moral level.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #186 on: May 25, 2018, 05:45:26 PM »


no one thought that concert chick was motivated by, or promulgating, hatred, michigancat.

well, I'm sure someone did. But regardless, if she wasn't necessarily motivated by hate, she was definitely dismissive or flippant about how her words might affect a minority group. Her lack of concern for how it might be perceived makes it mildly racist IMO.

I don't believe that singing along with the lyrics in any song constitutes an endorsement of those lyrics. The girl probably should have turned down the offer to come up on stage, because being up there put her in a situation where she had to make the decision to either censor the original author of the lyrics during his live performance, or sing the lyrics and piss off a bunch of people. I mostly just feel sorry for her.


I didn't say she was endorsing the lyrics. But censoring herself seems like a pretty easy decision. :dunno:

She wouldn't have really been censoring herself. She would be censoring Kendrick Lamar, since the lyrics are his. I can see how that might not be an obvious decision, since she was singing with him at his show. It's not unreasonable to view an invitation to the stage as permission to sing the lyrics as written. It was pretty clearly a poor decision on her part to sing the lyrics, but I don't see it as wrong on any moral level.

Uh, anyone who knows all the words to a Kendrick Lamar song knows that word is censored for radio and on tv all the time by Kendrick himself. This isn't some rough ridin' brain buster damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario she was put in.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #187 on: May 25, 2018, 06:16:56 PM »
You have a source for that? It's far more likely the station censors it. (well the labels do because radio won't play it otherwise).
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #188 on: May 25, 2018, 06:21:45 PM »
etymology is not a moral argument.

It's relevant if the moral question is "does the use of a word negatively impact the feelings of others"?

it's possible to make an ethical argument against using racial and ethnic slurs, she just didn't make one.  i also didn't think it was a great thread.  she contradicted herself at times and i'm fairly confident some of her etymology was inaccurate.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #189 on: May 25, 2018, 06:25:14 PM »
You have a source for that? It's far more likely the station censors it. (well the labels do because radio won't play it otherwise).
He definitely has censored himself on network tv appearances. Not sure if he has recorded censored versions for radio, but he has released censored versions and special radio versions commonly have unique verses. Changing "Back that Ass Up" to "Back that Thing up" immediately comes to mind.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #190 on: May 25, 2018, 06:26:06 PM »
etymology is not a moral argument.

It's relevant if the moral question is "does the use of a word negatively impact the feelings of others"?

it's possible to make an ethical argument against using racial and ethnic slurs, she just didn't make one.  i also didn't think it was a great thread.  she contradicted herself at times and i'm fairly confident some of her etymology was inaccurate.
Picking nits!

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #191 on: May 25, 2018, 06:36:23 PM »
They are special radio versions because radio won't play the "real" song. Satellite radio definitely plays uncensored versions because they don't have the same corporate or fcc rules. (the word in question can be broadcast but the stations themselves will not do it.)

Personally I wouldn't consider that "self-censorship", but instead working around existing rules. It's clear that the "pure" form of his art has no such restrictions.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #192 on: May 25, 2018, 06:58:13 PM »

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #193 on: May 25, 2018, 07:05:38 PM »
That article makes me want to reread the whole thread

Offline sys

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #194 on: May 25, 2018, 07:28:59 PM »
an interesting article.  however, i reserve my right to both adore coates' writings and not ritually flagellate myself for unforgivable whiteness.

i keep meaning to read one of mcwhorter's linguistics books, but i've never gotten around to it.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #195 on: May 25, 2018, 07:40:44 PM »
I just wish the author of that article spent less time talking about race related issues and more time actually helping black people.

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #196 on: May 25, 2018, 08:20:22 PM »
I just wish the author of that article spent less time talking about race related issues and more time actually helping black people.
Amen, brother

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #197 on: May 25, 2018, 08:36:03 PM »
Mcwhorter makes a lot of good points despite having an unfortunate name. I will just say that I think the attitude propagated in our institutions of higher learning and filtered throughout society has a negative chilling effect on the discussion of important issues in this country.

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Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #198 on: May 26, 2018, 10:16:16 AM »

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #199 on: May 26, 2018, 12:24:01 PM »
https://www.the-american-interest.com/2018/05/24/atonement-as-activism/

This guy must know KK and m-cat.

He has some very good points but has an annoying writing style. Like, I agreed with this for the most part:

Quote
What gets lost is that all of this awareness was supposed to be about helping black people, especially poor ones. We are too often distracted from this by a race awareness that has come to be largely about white people seeking grace. For example, one reads often of studies showing that black boys are punished and suspended in school more often than other kids. But then one reads equally often that poverty makes boys, in particular, more likely to be aggressive and have a harder time concentrating. We are taught to assume that the punishments and suspensions are due to racism, and to somehow ignore the data showing that the conditions too many black boys grow up in unfortunately makes them indeed more likely to act up in school. Might the poverty be the key problem to address? But, try this purely logical reasoning in polite company only at the risk of being treated as a moral reprobate. Our conversation is to be solely about racism, not solutions—other than looking to a vaguely defined future time when racism somehow disappears, America having “come to terms” with it: i.e. Judgment Day. As to what exactly this coming to terms would consist of, I suppose only our Pastor of White Privilege knows.

but does he really think suggesting we address poverty puts him at risk of "being treated as a moral reprobate"? Is his question really viewed as controversial in any real circle?

He must really be jealous of Coates's popularity, too.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 12:30:58 PM by michigancat »