Author Topic: Is it really racism...  (Read 32615 times)

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #150 on: May 25, 2018, 11:31:09 AM »
I agree that I have benefited to some degree from historical systemic discrimination against black people.  I do not agree that those benefits (for which I never asked) put a higher moral burden on me than they do a black person. 

Maybe a more accurate way to say it is it puts a different moral burden on you. A good example is the white girl using the n-word on stage at the Kendrick show. I mean, I hope we can all agree the girl using it was wrong, but was Kendrick equally wrong for using the word in the song? Is she held to a higher moral standard, or a different one?

Kendrick was wrong for inviting the white girl onto the stage to rap the n-word.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #151 on: May 25, 2018, 12:06:52 PM »
I agree that I have benefited to some degree from historical systemic discrimination against black people.  I do not agree that those benefits (for which I never asked) put a higher moral burden on me than they do a black person. 

Maybe a more accurate way to say it is it puts a different moral burden on you. A good example is the white girl using the n-word on stage at the Kendrick show. I mean, I hope we can all agree the girl using it was wrong, but was Kendrick equally wrong for using the word in the song? Is she held to a higher moral standard, or a different one?
I'm not sure I agree that using the n word in the context she used it was wrong. Nor Kendrick's, really.

i don't think either's use of the n word was wrong because they don't appeared to have intended any harm and I doubt either's use actually caused anyone any harm.   


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #152 on: May 25, 2018, 12:15:20 PM »
I agree that I have benefited to some degree from historical systemic discrimination against black people.  I do not agree that those benefits (for which I never asked) put a higher moral burden on me than they do a black person. 

Maybe a more accurate way to say it is it puts a different moral burden on you. A good example is the white girl using the n-word on stage at the Kendrick show. I mean, I hope we can all agree the girl using it was wrong, but was Kendrick equally wrong for using the word in the song? Is she held to a higher moral standard, or a different one?
I'm not sure I agree that using the n word in the context she used it was wrong. Nor Kendrick's, really.

i don't think either's use of the n word was wrong because they don't appeared to have intended any harm and I doubt either's use actually caused anyone any harm.
Sheesh you're obtuse with this.

Is it ok for a black person to say the n-word to refer to a black person in a song?
Is it equally ok for a white person to use the n-word to refer to a black person in a song?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #153 on: May 25, 2018, 12:22:01 PM »
Are you talking socially ok or morally ok? Cause they’re really not the same thing.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #154 on: May 25, 2018, 12:23:55 PM »
Are you talking socially ok or morally ok? Cause they’re really not the same thing.
For the sake of discussion, let's say both.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #155 on: May 25, 2018, 12:24:44 PM »
Is it ok for a black person to say the n-word to refer to a black person in a song?
Is it equally ok for a white person to use the n-word to refer to a black person in a song?

yes, both were ok.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #156 on: May 25, 2018, 12:27:12 PM »
Colloquial "a" or hard "er"?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #157 on: May 25, 2018, 12:30:30 PM »
Are you talking socially ok or morally ok? Cause they’re really not the same thing.
For the sake of discussion, let's say both.

I think they definitely diverge in a case like this. 

Morally, I generally don't think it is wrong to use any word unless you realize it could be harmful or threatening to someone you are using it around.  When you are repeating the lyrics to a song you were invited on stage to sing, I don't see any issues there.

Socially, I feel like there is a definite red line for white people using the n-word.  I would never do it, even if it was purely to make a point about free speech.  But that's not necessarily because I am concerned about others feeling threatened, it is because I am concerned about my own livelihood and career.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #158 on: May 25, 2018, 12:39:42 PM »
Are you talking socially ok or morally ok? Cause they’re really not the same thing.
For the sake of discussion, let's say both.

I think they definitely diverge in a case like this. 

Morally, I generally don't think it is wrong to use any word unless you realize it could be harmful or threatening to someone you are using it around.  When you are repeating the lyrics to a song you were invited on stage to sing, I don't see any issues there.

Socially, I feel like there is a definite red line for white people using the n-word.  I would never do it, even if it was purely to make a point about free speech.  But that's not necessarily because I am concerned about others feeling threatened, it is because I am concerned about my own livelihood and career.

Why do you think use of the word is so socially unacceptable for white people?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #159 on: May 25, 2018, 01:04:45 PM »
Do you think it's acceptable for a white person to read Huck Finn?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #160 on: May 25, 2018, 01:10:08 PM »
societies have lots of rules that don't make any sense, michigancat.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #161 on: May 25, 2018, 01:14:24 PM »
It’s a bright line that helps people feel superior to other people

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #162 on: May 25, 2018, 01:18:14 PM »
Do you think it's acceptable for a white person to read Huck Finn?

I'm guessing you mean read it out loud to a group? I'd say it depends on the context - who is the audience, what is the setting, how is it read, etc. Sometimes it would be OK and sometimes it probably wouldn't. Like, reading it to a child without any additional context? That would probably be wrong. Is the white reader going heavy on an old-timey cartoonish blackface accent)? Probably wrong (although it admittedly might be difficult given how it's written). Reading it in a history or literature class with a disclaimer about the language? OK.

And of course it's OK to just read it to one's self.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #163 on: May 25, 2018, 01:35:11 PM »
Are you talking socially ok or morally ok? Cause they’re really not the same thing.
For the sake of discussion, let's say both.

I think they definitely diverge in a case like this. 

Morally, I generally don't think it is wrong to use any word unless you realize it could be harmful or threatening to someone you are using it around.  When you are repeating the lyrics to a song you were invited on stage to sing, I don't see any issues there.

Socially, I feel like there is a definite red line for white people using the n-word.  I would never do it, even if it was purely to make a point about free speech.  But that's not necessarily because I am concerned about others feeling threatened, it is because I am concerned about my own livelihood and career.

Why do you think use of the word is so socially unacceptable for white people?
I think the idea is that because white people generally used that word with hatred for generations, it's easy for listeners to mistakenly assume that every time a white person uses it they say it with some level of hatred.  many times those assumptions are correct, other times they're not.

Rather than clarify your intentions via a conversation as complicated as the one we're having now, i think we've collectively decided that it's socially better to self-censor. 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #164 on: May 25, 2018, 01:54:43 PM »
Are you talking socially ok or morally ok? Cause they’re really not the same thing.
For the sake of discussion, let's say both.

I think they definitely diverge in a case like this. 

Morally, I generally don't think it is wrong to use any word unless you realize it could be harmful or threatening to someone you are using it around.  When you are repeating the lyrics to a song you were invited on stage to sing, I don't see any issues there.

Socially, I feel like there is a definite red line for white people using the n-word.  I would never do it, even if it was purely to make a point about free speech.  But that's not necessarily because I am concerned about others feeling threatened, it is because I am concerned about my own livelihood and career.

Why do you think use of the word is so socially unacceptable for white people?
I think the idea is that because white people generally used that word with hatred for generations, it's easy for listeners to mistakenly assume that every time a white person uses it they say it with some level of hatred.  many times those assumptions are correct, other times they're not.

Rather than clarify your intentions via a conversation as complicated as the one we're having now, i think we've collectively decided that it's socially better to self-censor. 


so you allow yourself to carry a different moral burden than minorities in this respect

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #165 on: May 25, 2018, 01:56:41 PM »
Why do you think use of the word is so socially unacceptable for white people?
I think the idea is that because white people generally used that word with hatred for generations, it's easy for listeners to mistakenly assume that every time a white person uses it they say it with some level of hatred.  many times those assumptions are correct, other times they're not.

Rather than clarify your intentions via a conversation as complicated as the one we're having now, i think we've collectively decided that it's socially better to self-censor. 

so you allow yourself to carry a different moral burden than minorities in this respect
how did you get to that conclusion? we were speaking about social norms.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #166 on: May 25, 2018, 02:21:25 PM »
Why do you think use of the word is so socially unacceptable for white people?
I think the idea is that because white people generally used that word with hatred for generations, it's easy for listeners to mistakenly assume that every time a white person uses it they say it with some level of hatred.  many times those assumptions are correct, other times they're not.

Rather than clarify your intentions via a conversation as complicated as the one we're having now, i think we've collectively decided that it's socially better to self-censor. 

so you allow yourself to carry a different moral burden than minorities in this respect
how did you get to that conclusion? we were speaking about social norms.

Yeah, after a second read I realized you don't really care if/how/why a minority might find it immoral or offensive to hear a white person use that word, you just don't want to have a conversation to explain to minorities why they shouldn't be offended when you say it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're just saying you're comfortable following a different social order/norm than minorities and you consider that to be completely separate from having a different moral burden? (Perhaps you aren't comfortable with this social agreement, again correct me if I'm wrong)


FWIW, I think this particular "social norm" (whites using the n-word in public) and "morals" are completely interconnected. You wouldn't have this "social norm" if society hadn't agreed that the word was (and still is) used as a tool for hate and that using tools for hate is immoral.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #167 on: May 25, 2018, 02:32:58 PM »
FWIW, I think this particular "social norm" (whites using the n-word in public) and "morals" are completely interconnected. You wouldn't have this "social norm" if society hadn't agreed that the word was (and still is) used as a tool for hate and that using tools for hate is immoral.

that's ridiculous.  societies have reams of words they consider inappropriate or appropriate depending on context, and morality or ethics is almost never even a part of the equation.  you're thinking of decorum.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #168 on: May 25, 2018, 02:39:18 PM »
mostly unrelated anecdote that i want to tell anyway:


scene: me, in mexico, being introduced to a friend of a friend of a friend.

friend - this is whatever he name was.
him - hello, everyone calls me "el negro".
me - hello, i'm sys.
him, proud of his knowledge of colloquial american english - you would call me "the n-word".
me, internally - uh, no.  no i would not.
me, externally - mejor hablamos en espanol.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #169 on: May 25, 2018, 02:43:19 PM »


FWIW, I think this particular "social norm" (whites using the n-word in public) and "morals" are completely interconnected. You wouldn't have this "social norm" if society hadn't agreed that the word was (and still is) used as a tool for hate and that using tools for hate is immoral.

that's ridiculous.  societies have reams of words they consider inappropriate or appropriate depending on context, and morality or ethics is almost never even a part of the equation.  you're thinking of decorum.

For sure that's why I said "this particular social norm"

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #170 on: May 25, 2018, 03:01:20 PM »
Why do you think use of the word is so socially unacceptable for white people?
I think the idea is that because white people generally used that word with hatred for generations, it's easy for listeners to mistakenly assume that every time a white person uses it they say it with some level of hatred.  many times those assumptions are correct, other times they're not.

Rather than clarify your intentions via a conversation as complicated as the one we're having now, i think we've collectively decided that it's socially better to self-censor. 

so you allow yourself to carry a different moral burden than minorities in this respect
how did you get to that conclusion? we were speaking about social norms.

Yeah, after a second read I realized you don't really care if/how/why a minority might find it immoral or offensive to hear a white person use that word, you just don't want to have a conversation to explain to minorities why they shouldn't be offended when you say it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're just saying you're comfortable following a different social order/norm than minorities and you consider that to be completely separate from having a different moral burden? (Perhaps you aren't comfortable with this social agreement, again correct me if I'm wrong)

Basically, yes.

But I'd be interested in hearing why black people don't like hearing white people say the word.  I already gave my assumption of the reason (i.e. thinking that its use denotes some level of negative attitude toward black people on the part of the speaker).  I'm willing to accept that there could be some other reason for a black person to dislike when a white person says it but not mind when a black person says it.  I just don't know what it is.

Again, I'm drawing a distinction between using the word with an intention to degrade the listener or black people in general (morally wrong) and using the word with no odious intention (morally neutral).  But I think virtually every use of the word by a white person breaks social norms or decorum, as sys put it.   
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 03:07:46 PM by Dlew12 »


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #171 on: May 25, 2018, 03:22:56 PM »
mostly unrelated anecdote that i want to tell anyway:


scene: me, in mexico, being introduced to a friend of a friend of a friend.

friend - this is whatever he name was.
him - hello, everyone calls me "el negro".
me - hello, i'm sys.
him, proud of his knowledge of colloquial american english - you would call me "the n-word".
me, internally - uh, no.  no i would not.
me, externally - mejor hablamos en espanol.

lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #172 on: May 25, 2018, 03:35:54 PM »
Well I'd be interested in hearing why black people don't like hearing white people say the word.  I already gave my assumption of the reason (i.e. thinking that its use denotes some level of negative attitude toward black people on the part of the speaker).  I'm willing to accept that there could be some other reason for a black person to dislike when a white person says it but not mind when a black person says it.  I just don't know what it is.

Again, I'm drawing a distinction between using the word with an intention to degrade the listener or black people in general (morally wrong) and using the word with no odious intention (morally neutral).  But I think virtually every use of the word by a white person breaks social norms or decorum, as sys put it.   

not sure if you really don't understand why blacks don't like hearing the word, but here's a good video to watch:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/11/9/16627900/ta-nehisi-coates-n-word (doesn't get too much into why it's offensive when whites use it, mostly focuses on the social decorum aspect, still worth watching)

and a great (long) twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/Luckwman/status/862280151358418944

Basically the argument is a mixture of social decorum as well as the morally repugnant origins of the word and why the intention doesn't matter.


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #173 on: May 25, 2018, 03:42:29 PM »
For sure that's why I said "this particular social norm"

this particular social norm is just like all the other social norms.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #174 on: May 25, 2018, 03:45:34 PM »
For sure that's why I said "this particular social norm"

this particular social norm is just like all the other social norms.

no it ain't