Author Topic: Is it really racism...  (Read 32633 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #100 on: May 23, 2018, 10:57:17 PM »
Not necessarily.  I think the motivations underlying religion and race are different.  Race seems completely arbitrary to me, whereas the state of a grandchild's soul means something different -- at least it's not arbitrary in my eyes.  So I think the amish have the same latitude as a muslim (or Catholic/Jew/Mennonite/Hindu, etc.) in your example.

I think a white parent has the same latitude to ask for white grandchildren as a mexican/middle eastern/black person has to ask for a mexican/middle eastern/black grandchildren.  Which is to say, I think requesting that your grandchildren be a certain race is an arbitrary (and mean) thing to ask, regardless of the race.

I think it's bad for society if individuals distrust others based on their race.
Are you saying "souls" are better excuses to have a preference in marriage than decades of oppression?
I think it's more rationale and far less arbitrary to have a preference based on religious beliefs rather than race.  Especially with regard to marriage and potential children.  I don't think that's contentious.  If this judge conditioned the trust based on his kids marrying a methodist (rather than a white person), this isn't a story.


None of this is to say I endorse steering offspring to marry or refrain from marrying a certain religion.  I just think the underlying motivations for doing so seem more rational than they do for race.

My take is that souls are definitely made up and oppression based on race is definitely real so yeah I have a different opinion over which influence is more rational.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #101 on: May 23, 2018, 11:20:35 PM »
Fair enough.  If you think religious belief holds no more profound value than "culture," then I think they're basically equatable and are probably as arbitrary as race but i haven't given much thought to the culture issue (as distinct from race/religion).

My take is that it's wrong to base your opinion of somebody on their race. We shouldn't hold people personally responsible for the actions of other people just because they look the same.  That's wrong.  It may happen, and we may understand why it happens, but it's bad for society that it happens, and perpetuating it or excusing it is bad - regardless of who does it.  The ideas that "black people are right to distrust/fear white people" and "white people are right to distrust/fear black people" are both awful.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 11:47:44 PM by Dlew12 »


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #102 on: May 24, 2018, 01:28:27 AM »


My take is that it's wrong to base your opinion of somebody on their race. We shouldn't hold people personally responsible for the actions of other people just because they look the same.  That's wrong.  It may happen, and we may understand why it happens, but it's bad for society that it happens, and perpetuating it or excusing it is bad - regardless of who does it.  The ideas that "black people are right to distrust/fear white people" and "white people are right to distrust/fear black people" are both awful.

I'm not saying any form of racial or religious preference is "right", I'm just saying it's worse/different when white Americans are demanding their offspring marry white Americans than any other group in the country.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #103 on: May 24, 2018, 02:54:32 AM »
I’ll end it like this.

Do you think that the white kid that was raised in a religion from suburban KC just naturally arrived at the most rational viewpoint without your own perspective being influenced by the things we are talking about?

I don’t mean to be reductive, but people are influenced by lots of stuff, culture is powerful. You can simultaneously believe that race is a social construct and that it still has profound effects on people’s lives.


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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #104 on: May 24, 2018, 05:40:33 AM »
So we’re taking the results of what is nothing more than a glorified opinion poll and some anecdotes and applying them as straight out and absolute “demands” that certain races make of their offspring and/or other people of their ilk relative to marriage.

Fascinating. 

This thread has delivered and outed more than I thought.  Some of you are straight out whackadoo who live at the cutting edge of first world “problems”. 

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #105 on: May 24, 2018, 08:05:42 AM »
So we’re taking the results of what is nothing more than a glorified opinion poll and some anecdotes and applying them as straight out and absolute “demands” that certain races make of their offspring and/or other people of their ilk relative to marriage.

Fascinating. 

This thread has delivered and outed more than I thought.  Some of you are straight out whackadoo who live at the cutting edge of first world “problems”.

No, the debate is about a judge in Texas who is running for public office and put it into his trust that his children only get money if they marry a Caucasian Christian, and whether or not that would be ok if somebody from a different race made the same demand.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #106 on: May 24, 2018, 08:08:26 AM »
I’ll end it like this.

Do you think that the white kid that was raised in a religion from suburban KC just naturally arrived at the most rational viewpoint without your own perspective being influenced by the things we are talking about?

I don’t mean to be reductive, but people are influenced by lots of stuff, culture is powerful. You can simultaneously believe that race is a social construct and that it still has profound effects on people’s lives.


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I just don't see the motive as all that relevant. You can't be a decent person to people of other races or religions if you feel they are not good enough to marry your offspring, and that creates problems, regardless of your reason for hating them.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #107 on: May 24, 2018, 08:21:56 AM »
So we’re taking the results of what is nothing more than a glorified opinion poll and some anecdotes and applying them as straight out and absolute “demands” that certain races make of their offspring and/or other people of their ilk relative to marriage.

Fascinating. 

This thread has delivered and outed more than I thought.  Some of you are straight out whackadoo who live at the cutting edge of first world “problems”.

No, the debate is about a judge in Texas who is running for public office and put it into his trust that his children only get money if they marry a Caucasian Christian, and whether or not that would be ok if somebody from a different race made the same demand.

Then you need to reread the thread a lot closer.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #108 on: May 24, 2018, 09:31:22 AM »

I just don't see the motive as all that relevant. You can't be a decent person to people of other races or religions if you feel they are not good enough to marry your offspring, and that creates problems, regardless of your reason for hating them.

I don’t think that’s right at all. I can be friends with a drug addict and really care about them while at the same time doing everything to convince my kid not to marry them.

You don’t have to support every choice someone makes to treat them well, but you can be legitimately concerned that those choices would negatively affect your child if they lived under the same roof with that person.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #109 on: May 24, 2018, 09:35:39 AM »
I’ll end it like this.

Do you think that the white kid that was raised in a religion from suburban KC just naturally arrived at the most rational viewpoint without your own perspective being influenced by the things we are talking about?

I don’t mean to be reductive, but people are influenced by lots of stuff, culture is powerful. You can simultaneously believe that race is a social construct and that it still has profound effects on people’s lives.


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Of course my own perspective is influenced by all sorts of different things.  Everyone's is -- including a black person who has personally experienced some form of oppression.  That said, I don't think my race or religion or culture should discount my viewpoint of what's most rational though - at least not more than anyone else's.  It goes without saying I can't speak about this from anyone's perspective other than my own. 

And I agree that culture is powerful and on an individual level, cultures foster individual viewpoints.  But if we're trying to get at what's right or wrong (or at least what's more right or more wrong) and why, and if we agree that classism/sectarianism/racism is wrong then I see i no reason we should call classism/sectarianism/racism wrong regardless of race or culture.  Applying different moral rules and weights to different races seems sectarian in and of itself.  If white culture causes white people to oppress or distrust black people, then I think that's a horrible problem with white culture.  I think the same would be true as applied to black culture. 



My take is that it's wrong to base your opinion of somebody on their race. We shouldn't hold people personally responsible for the actions of other people just because they look the same.  That's wrong.  It may happen, and we may understand why it happens, but it's bad for society that it happens, and perpetuating it or excusing it is bad - regardless of who does it.  The ideas that "black people are right to distrust/fear white people" and "white people are right to distrust/fear black people" are both awful.

I'm not saying any form of racial or religious preference is "right", I'm just saying it's worse/different when white Americans are demanding their offspring marry white Americans than any other group in the country.
I'd agree that it's different given the different underlying motivations, but I don't agree that it's worse if white people do it.  It's clear we're not going to come to an agreement here because I'm more absolutist (in general) on this than you and tortuga are, but it's been a fun discussion nonetheless.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 09:41:17 AM by Dlew12 »


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #110 on: May 24, 2018, 11:44:04 AM »
I'd agree that it's different given the different underlying motivations, but I don't agree that it's worse if white people do it.  It's clear we're not going to come to an agreement here because I'm more absolutist (in general) on this than you and tortuga are, but it's been a fun discussion nonetheless.

I guess I'd ask why are you such an absolutist on this issue? Do you take similar absolutist stances on matters of the law? Are there any matters of the law where you wouldn't take a similar absolutist stance?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #111 on: May 24, 2018, 11:57:09 AM »
I'd agree that it's different given the different underlying motivations, but I don't agree that it's worse if white people do it.  It's clear we're not going to come to an agreement here because I'm more absolutist (in general) on this than you and tortuga are, but it's been a fun discussion nonetheless.

I guess I'd ask why are you such an absolutist on this issue? Do you take similar absolutist stances on matters of the law? Are there any matters of the law where you wouldn't take a similar absolutist stance?
Because I think if we're speaking about moral rules they should apply broadly to all people, regardless of race. I don't know any compelling reason they shouldn't. 
 
Do I take similar absolutist stances on matters of the law?  My impulse says that I would of course apply laws absolutely across all races.  Can you provide a hypothetical of what you mean for me? 


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #112 on: May 24, 2018, 12:17:33 PM »
I'd agree that it's different given the different underlying motivations, but I don't agree that it's worse if white people do it.  It's clear we're not going to come to an agreement here because I'm more absolutist (in general) on this than you and tortuga are, but it's been a fun discussion nonetheless.

I guess I'd ask why are you such an absolutist on this issue? Do you take similar absolutist stances on matters of the law? Are there any matters of the law where you wouldn't take a similar absolutist stance?
Because I think if we're speaking about moral rules they should apply broadly to all people, regardless of race. I don't know any compelling reason they shouldn't. 
 
Do I take similar absolutist stances on matters of the law?  My impulse says that I would of course apply laws absolutely across all races.  Can you provide a hypothetical of what you mean for me? 

yeah I worded that poorly - I'm wondering if you're as absolutist on matters that remove race from the equation.

One possible example...We can all agree that punching someone is wrong. But does who is giving and receiving the punch relevant? Is an adult male punching a child as hard as they can just as bad as an adult male punching an adult male as hard as they can? Is an elderly woman punching an adult male as hard as she can just as bad as the reverse?

I'm also thinking of sentencing based on circumstances of the crime, and hate crime laws (which I would assume you're opposed to). Do you think all violations of the same law receive the exact same sentencing, regardless of circumstances?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #113 on: May 24, 2018, 12:42:21 PM »
I'd agree that it's different given the different underlying motivations, but I don't agree that it's worse if white people do it.  It's clear we're not going to come to an agreement here because I'm more absolutist (in general) on this than you and tortuga are, but it's been a fun discussion nonetheless.

I guess I'd ask why are you such an absolutist on this issue? Do you take similar absolutist stances on matters of the law? Are there any matters of the law where you wouldn't take a similar absolutist stance?
Because I think if we're speaking about moral rules they should apply broadly to all people, regardless of race. I don't know any compelling reason they shouldn't. 
 
Do I take similar absolutist stances on matters of the law?  My impulse says that I would of course apply laws absolutely across all races.  Can you provide a hypothetical of what you mean for me? 

yeah I worded that poorly - I'm wondering if you're as absolutist on matters that remove race from the equation.

One possible example...We can all agree that punching someone is wrong. But does who is giving and receiving the punch relevant? Is an adult male punching a child as hard as they can just as bad as an adult male punching an adult male as hard as they can? Is an elderly woman punching an adult male as hard as she can just as bad as the reverse?

I'm also thinking of sentencing based on circumstances of the crime, and hate crime laws (which I would assume you're opposed to). Do you think all violations of the same law receive the exact same sentencing, regardless of circumstances?
So from a legal perspective, should we hold an elderly woman who hits a man to the same degree of culpability as a man who hits an elderly woman?  Well assuming the circumstances of both are equal, yes, I think the law should hold both accountable equally.  Now I understand that's not really how it works, practically, but ideally, yes. Old women shouldn't be free to go around battering people just because they're old women. 

And I'm not opposed to hate crime laws.  I would just apply them equally (i.e. I think a minority should be held equally accountable under the laws if the minority commits a racially motivated crimes).  I'm fairly certain that's how it must work already, though I don't know too much about those laws.


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #114 on: May 24, 2018, 12:51:02 PM »
You can simultaneously believe that race is a social construct and that it still has profound effects on people’s lives.

people really get stupid with the "race is a social construct stuff".  most of them fairly obviously have no idea what they are saying biologically, and i don't think they have a very good understanding of it sociologically either.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #115 on: May 24, 2018, 12:55:28 PM »
No, the debate is about a judge in Texas who is running for public office and put it into his trust that his children only get money if they marry a Caucasian Christian, and whether or not that would be ok if somebody from a different race made the same demand.

rage, you may be expressing the hardest line on this subject of any poster.  does the strength of the expression of the sentiment matter to you, or is it entirely the existence of the sentiment itself?

for example if the judge only expressed a preference that his children marry same-race partners would you judge that identically to him legally disinheriting them if they don't do so?
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #116 on: May 24, 2018, 12:58:46 PM »
btw, the judge (is he now an ex-judge?) said something about regretting the trust now, but not being able to revoke or amend it.  is that actually true (that one can set up a trust that can't be altered by the trust's creator)?
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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #117 on: May 24, 2018, 12:59:00 PM »
So from a legal perspective, should we hold an elderly woman who hits a man to the same degree of culpability as a man who hits an elderly woman?  Well assuming the circumstances of both are equal, yes, I think the law should hold both accountable equally. Now I understand that's not really how it works, practically, but ideally, yes. 

What are circumstances that might make the situations "unequal" if we agree "punching is wrong"?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #118 on: May 24, 2018, 01:03:21 PM »
So from a legal perspective, should we hold an elderly woman who hits a man to the same degree of culpability as a man who hits an elderly woman?  Well assuming the circumstances of both are equal, yes, I think the law should hold both accountable equally. Now I understand that's not really how it works, practically, but ideally, yes. 

What are circumstances that might make the situations "unequal" if we agree "punching is wrong"?
self defense or some other provocation


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #119 on: May 24, 2018, 01:50:39 PM »
So from a legal perspective, should we hold an elderly woman who hits a man to the same degree of culpability as a man who hits an elderly woman?  Well assuming the circumstances of both are equal, yes, I think the law should hold both accountable equally. Now I understand that's not really how it works, practically, but ideally, yes. 

What are circumstances that might make the situations "unequal" if we agree "punching is wrong"?
self defense or some other provocation

are you saying you believe all unprovoked instances of one individual inflicting physical harm on another are equal?

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #120 on: May 24, 2018, 02:07:35 PM »
btw, the judge (is he now an ex-judge?) said something about regretting the trust now, but not being able to revoke or amend it.  is that actually true (that one can set up a trust that can't be altered by the trust's creator)?

It is possible, although I struggle to remember the specifics of it.  All I remember is that this is a pretty cool trick that allows you to make yourself judgment proof.  If you create a trust that you technically do not control then you can fund it with money earmarked for you even though the money isn't yours legally speaking.  So you could go bankrupt and still get that income stream.  At least that is my memory of how it could work.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #121 on: May 24, 2018, 02:08:22 PM »
So from a legal perspective, should we hold an elderly woman who hits a man to the same degree of culpability as a man who hits an elderly woman?  Well assuming the circumstances of both are equal, yes, I think the law should hold both accountable equally. Now I understand that's not really how it works, practically, but ideally, yes. 

What are circumstances that might make the situations "unequal" if we agree "punching is wrong"?
self defense or some other provocation

are you saying you believe all unprovoked instances of one individual inflicting physical harm on another are equal?
Errr...Not quite.

I'm saying that all instances where one adult punches another adult without provocation should be treated equally by the law.  I think a "battery" is a "battery" regardless of who commits it.

Now depending on the severity of the harm (some statutes define "aggravated battery" as a battery that results in disfigurement or something) it can change.  Which is fine by me because that's still blind as to the status of the bad actor.


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #122 on: May 24, 2018, 02:54:32 PM »
Now depending on the severity of the harm (some statutes define "aggravated battery" as a battery that results in disfigurement or something) it can change.  Which is fine by me because that's still blind as to the status of the bad actor.

except it isn't, as two bad actors could both punch as hard as possible and inflict different damage to the same victim. they are committing the same crime with different results for the victim. The more powerful bad actor is more likely to be disfigured and the weaker victims are more likely to be disfigured.

Similarly, discrimination against different groups affects each group differently, as does the group doing the discriminating. The more powerful group discriminating does more damage to the weaker group than vice versa.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #123 on: May 24, 2018, 03:16:22 PM »
Now depending on the severity of the harm (some statutes define "aggravated battery" as a battery that results in disfigurement or something) it can change.  Which is fine by me because that's still blind as to the status of the bad actor.

except it isn't, as two bad actors could both punch as hard as possible and inflict different damage to the same victim. they are committing the same crime with different results for the victim. The more powerful bad actor is more likely to be disfigured and the weaker victims are more likely to be disfigured.

Similarly, discrimination against different groups affects each group differently, as does the group doing the discriminating. The more powerful group discriminating does more damage to the weaker group than vice versa.
Ok, I think I'm with you:  you're saying that we should consider the effect of a bad act (along with actor's intent, i assume) on the victims when assigning moral blame to the actor.  That's a reasonable viewpoint and one I think I agree with. 

So applying that reasoning to the original situation, we have "white people demanding their kids marry white people inflicts greater damage to minorities than the damage done to white people (and other minorities) when a minority demands their kids marry a member of their race."  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's your point. 

But I'm still not convinced that there's any meaningful difference between the relative damage done.  Why does it cause more harm when a white person demands his daughter marry a white person than when a black person demands his daughter marry a black person?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 03:21:19 PM by Dlew12 »


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #124 on: May 24, 2018, 03:33:26 PM »
So if an old lady punches a guy but she is weak and causes no damage, then that's ok?