Author Topic: Is it really racism...  (Read 14180 times)

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Offline DQ12

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2018, 05:44:44 PM »
I don't like categorical imperatives, but if I had to design one I would basically say any adult should be able to freely marry any other adult. That said, I think nearly everyone experiences some expectations from their relatives about who they marry and they are

"obviously sectarian/classist/racist/et al. in practice that our culture looks past all the time so I don't know why someone would claim to be shocked "

That said, there are obvious differences is again in degree and context.  The judge was particularly ham fisted in his bigotry (which is especially galling considering his role as an impartial justice). It is worse to disown your child than to refuse to attend or financially punish them than to simply encourage. The underlying reasons also matter, invoking the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, or Amish ideas about living apart plays better than standard white supremacy.

I don't feel the need to condemn everyone on this, but do you think it is a fair comparison between an Indian family refusing to pay for a wedding with a match chosen by their son and this guy?  An Amish disowning their son that leaves the community vs. a white evangelical family disowning their gay son?

I think context matters a lot even for stuff I would condemn for within my own family or social group.
I agree that there are different degrees to which parents influence their kids re. marriage and that some motivations seem more arbitrary than others ("I don't want a black son-in-law" vs. "I want my grandkids to be raised in the jewish faith").  But controlling for the varying motivations (i.e. religious/"cultural"/race) and degrees of influence (i.e. disowning/not attending wedding) I think it carries the same moral weight across religions, cultures and races.

For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2018, 06:10:42 PM »
For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

The context and history matter. What if the black parent had a child shot and killed by a white police officer? What if she grew up in a dangerous housing situation because of racist white landlords? What if a relative was falsely convicted of a crime by an all-white jury? There's plenty of reasons for blacks to distrust whites that aren't necessarily reciprocal because of the history (and presence) of American racism.

And I'd give the muslim family a full pass for disowning a child for marrying a non-baptist. They're just oddly focused.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2018, 06:28:25 PM »
For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

The context and history matter. What if the black parent had a child shot and killed by a white police officer? What if she grew up in a dangerous housing situation because of racist white landlords? What if a relative was falsely convicted of a crime by an all-white jury? There's plenty of reasons for blacks to distrust whites that aren't necessarily reciprocal because of the history (and presence) of American racism.

And I'd give the muslim family a full pass for disowning a child for marrying a non-baptist. They're just oddly focused.
I think that people regardless of race can always find reasons to distrust groups of other people.  Would you feel differently about the judge's trust condition if you learned that his cousin got mugged by a black person when he was young?

In other words, I understand that there are explanations for black people to distrust white people in general, but I don't think black people are justified in distrusting white people in general.  I think the reciprocal is also true.  I don't think it's justifiable to distrust someone based on their race. 


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Is it really racism...
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2018, 06:29:37 PM »
I don't like categorical imperatives, but if I had to design one I would basically say any adult should be able to freely marry any other adult. That said, I think nearly everyone experiences some expectations from their relatives about who they marry and they are

"obviously sectarian/classist/racist/et al. in practice that our culture looks past all the time so I don't know why someone would claim to be shocked "

That said, there are obvious differences is again in degree and context.  The judge was particularly ham fisted in his bigotry (which is especially galling considering his role as an impartial justice). It is worse to disown your child than to refuse to attend or financially punish them than to simply encourage. The underlying reasons also matter, invoking the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, or Amish ideas about living apart plays better than standard white supremacy.

I don't feel the need to condemn everyone on this, but do you think it is a fair comparison between an Indian family refusing to pay for a wedding with a match chosen by their son and this guy?  An Amish disowning their son that leaves the community vs. a white evangelical family disowning their gay son?

I think context matters a lot even for stuff I would condemn for within my own family or social group.
I agree that there are different degrees to which parents influence their kids re. marriage and that some motivations seem more arbitrary than others ("I don't want a black son-in-law" vs. "I want my grandkids to be raised in the jewish faith").  But controlling for the varying motivations (i.e. religious/"cultural"/race) and degrees of influence (i.e. disowning/not attending wedding) I think it carries the same moral weight across religions, cultures and races.

For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.


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Is it really racism...
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2018, 06:35:25 PM »
For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

The context and history matter. What if the black parent had a child shot and killed by a white police officer? What if she grew up in a dangerous housing situation because of racist white landlords? What if a relative was falsely convicted of a crime by an all-white jury? There's plenty of reasons for blacks to distrust whites that aren't necessarily reciprocal because of the history (and presence) of American racism.

And I'd give the muslim family a full pass for disowning a child for marrying a non-baptist. They're just oddly focused.
I think that people regardless of race can always find reasons to distrust groups of other people.  Would you feel differently about the judge's trust condition if you learned that his cousin got mugged by a black person when he was young?

In other words, I understand that there are explanations for black people to distrust white people in general, but I don't think black people are justified in distrusting white people in general.  I think the reciprocal is also true.  I don't think it's justifiable to distrust someone based on their race.

I think the entire weight of our nation’s systemic white American racism against blacks should play more of a role in providing context to black distrust of whites in individuals than white people’s long history of racial discrimination and prejudice against blacks should be excused just because we want some sort of equivalence for everything. If you acknowledge the history, why do you think blacks need to get over it and be held to the same standard as whites who never faced that systemic discrimination and have always had a much higher social standing in our society?


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2018, 06:36:44 PM »

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.

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Well wait.  You were the one who first started painting in broad brushes when you generally excused the same action depending on one's minority/majority status.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that's how I perceived your original statement.

I of course recognize there are variables and different situations at the individual level.  But I don't think it's fair to generally excuse one culture's (regardless of strict minority/majority status) influence over their kids' choice in partners and demonize another's if their actions and underlying motivations are essentially the same.


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2018, 06:40:26 PM »
I think discriminating based upon religion is better than discriminating based upon race, but both are pretty appalling. There is no good justification for it, regardless of whether or not the person discriminating is white.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2018, 06:42:00 PM »
For example, I don't see any compelling difference between (1) a black parent telling their daughter they wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a white person and (2) a white person telling their daughter the wouldn't attend her wedding if she married a black person.  Nor do I see a compelling difference between (a) a baptist family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist and (b) a muslim family telling their son they would disown him if he married a non-baptist.

The context and history matter. What if the black parent had a child shot and killed by a white police officer? What if she grew up in a dangerous housing situation because of racist white landlords? What if a relative was falsely convicted of a crime by an all-white jury? There's plenty of reasons for blacks to distrust whites that aren't necessarily reciprocal because of the history (and presence) of American racism.

And I'd give the muslim family a full pass for disowning a child for marrying a non-baptist. They're just oddly focused.
I think that people regardless of race can always find reasons to distrust groups of other people.  Would you feel differently about the judge's trust condition if you learned that his cousin got mugged by a black person when he was young?

In other words, I understand that there are explanations for black people to distrust white people in general, but I don't think black people are justified in distrusting white people in general.  I think the reciprocal is also true.  I don't think it's justifiable to distrust someone based on their race.

Absolutely it is different because US society has accepted things like white slumlords and housing discrimination and cops killing blacks but would never accept blacks mugging people.

Actions of oppression by society vs. an individual crime. Different.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2018, 06:42:48 PM »

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.

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Well wait.  You were the one who first started painting in broad brushes when you generally excused the same action depending on one's minority/majority status.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that's how I perceived your original statement.

I of course recognize there are variables and different situations at the individual level.  But I don't think it's fair to generally excuse one culture's (regardless of strict minority/majority status) influence over their kids' choice in partners and demonize another's if their actions and underlying motivations are essentially the same.

So a white parent has the same latitude in your mind to ask for white grandchildren as an Amish does to have Amish? This is your position?


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #84 on: May 23, 2018, 06:44:15 PM »

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.

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Well wait.  You were the one who first started painting in broad brushes when you generally excused the same action depending on one's minority/majority status.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that's how I perceived your original statement.

I of course recognize there are variables and different situations at the individual level.  But I don't think it's fair to generally excuse one culture's (regardless of strict minority/majority status) influence over their kids' choice in partners and demonize another's if their actions and underlying motivations are essentially the same.

I don’t know how many ways I have to say the same thing, what are you confused about?


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2018, 06:44:36 PM »

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.

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Well wait.  You were the one who first started painting in broad brushes when you generally excused the same action depending on one's minority/majority status.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that's how I perceived your original statement.

I of course recognize there are variables and different situations at the individual level.  But I don't think it's fair to generally excuse one culture's (regardless of strict minority/majority status) influence over their kids' choice in partners and demonize another's if their actions and underlying motivations are essentially the same.

So a white parent has the same latitude in your mind to ask for white grandchildren as an Amish does to have Amish? This is your position?


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If the white parent and the Amish parent are both good, decent people, then both have no latitude.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2018, 06:46:19 PM »

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.

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Well wait.  You were the one who first started painting in broad brushes when you generally excused the same action depending on one's minority/majority status.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that's how I perceived your original statement.

I of course recognize there are variables and different situations at the individual level.  But I don't think it's fair to generally excuse one culture's (regardless of strict minority/majority status) influence over their kids' choice in partners and demonize another's if their actions and underlying motivations are essentially the same.

So a white parent has the same latitude in your mind to ask for white grandchildren as an Amish does to have Amish? This is your position?


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If the white parent and the Amish parent are both good, decent people, then both have no latitude.

who is defining "good" and "decent"? what you find good and decent might not be good and decent to the Amish.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2018, 06:47:29 PM »

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.

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Well wait.  You were the one who first started painting in broad brushes when you generally excused the same action depending on one's minority/majority status.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that's how I perceived your original statement.

I of course recognize there are variables and different situations at the individual level.  But I don't think it's fair to generally excuse one culture's (regardless of strict minority/majority status) influence over their kids' choice in partners and demonize another's if their actions and underlying motivations are essentially the same.

So a white parent has the same latitude in your mind to ask for white grandchildren as an Amish does to have Amish? This is your position?


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If the white parent and the Amish parent are both good, decent people, then both have no latitude.

who is defining "good" and "decent"? what you find good and decent might not be good and decent to the Amish.

Yeah, racist pricks certainly define those words differently than I do.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2018, 06:52:53 PM »
I know a lady of Filipino descent (her parents are immigrants) who married a man with Korean parents. The Filipino parents were very much against it because Filipinos don't like Koreans due to their treatment during WWII Japanese occupation when the Koreans were enforcers for Japan. They think of Koreans as brutal, so they were concerned for their daughter.


Offline catastrophe

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2018, 08:30:55 PM »
Treating white or Korean people poorly because you have a preconceived notion of them based on the behavior of different white/Korean people is basically the definition of racism.

Although I completely understand KK's point.  Whether we realize it or not I think we all feel like racism from whites (especially white men) in America is worse than just about any other form simply because those in power are overwhelmingly white.  If we lived in a country where any other race made up 80% of congress, 99.9% of past presidents, and the vast majority of Fortune 500 CEOs, we would (and should) be much more vigilant of their particular brand of racism.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2018, 08:32:08 PM »
Sys's point on whites feeling and starting to behave as minorities kind of makes sense, but that's not quite what's happening with the white southern judge. Or is it???

i don't think so and the data from rage's polls indicate that whites are probably somewhat to hugely more open to have family members marry outside their race now than previously.

i was just taking the opportunity to make a somewhat related observation about voting instead of rough ridin'.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #91 on: May 23, 2018, 08:40:43 PM »
btw, i think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with the how poorly a group of people were treated justification for opposition to having family (we should probably just say offspring, no one gives a crap what their aunts or grandfathers are doing) marry outside their group.

i think it's much more about how strongly held a given group identity is, and how divergent that group identity is from the mainstream societal identity.  like i wouldn't judge an amish american negatively at all for strongly desiring that their offspring marry another amish american, whereas i would view negatively a black american who only wanted their offspring to marry another black american.  but, obviously, that isn't because i think the amish have been treated more harshly in america than black americans.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #92 on: May 23, 2018, 08:51:10 PM »
That goes to Mrs. Gooch's point.  There are very pragmatic reasons for wanting your kids to marry someone with similar culture / values / religion.  Amish obviously falls in that category.  Similar with Catholic, Jewish, or Muslim parents IMO.  If the parent is concerned about their child's eternal damnation if they fall away from their faith, I think it is much more understandable than a parent who wants to preserve "white values" or whatever else you wanna call it.

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #93 on: May 23, 2018, 08:53:53 PM »
btw, i think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with the how poorly a group of people were treated justification for opposition to having family (we should probably just say offspring, no one gives a crap what their aunts or grandfathers are doing) marry outside their group.

i think it's much more about how strongly held a given group identity is, and how divergent that group identity is from the mainstream societal identity.  like i wouldn't judge an amish american negatively at all for strongly desiring that their offspring marry another amish american, whereas i would view negatively a black american who only wanted their offspring to marry another black american.  but, obviously, that isn't because i think the amish have been treated more harshly in america than black americans.

You bring up a great point, it is certainly one factor. But again, if I was living in Garden City in a Somali community I would probably be more strongly ID'ing with my in group and being more suspicious of white people after 3 had plotted a mass murder against my community. Amish have a strong, divergent group ID that is almost inherent. Many times this divergence is fostered on to communities by the majority through coercion and force, this obviously leads to suspicion or outright rejection of the majority in many cases by the minority group.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #94 on: May 23, 2018, 09:02:26 PM »
You bring up a great point, it is certainly one factor. But again, if I was living in Garden City in a Somali community I would probably be more strongly ID'ing with my in group and being more suspicious of white people after 3 had plotted a mass murder against my community. Amish have a strong, divergent group ID that is almost inherent. Many times this divergence is fostered on to communities by the majority through coercion and force, this obviously leads to suspicion or outright rejection of the majority in many cases by the minority group.

how persecuted a group is does correlate with how strong their group identity is, somewhat perversely.
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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #95 on: May 23, 2018, 09:21:31 PM »


You bring up a great point, it is certainly one factor. But again, if I was living in Garden City in a Somali community I would probably be more strongly ID'ing with my in group and being more suspicious of white people after 3 had plotted a mass murder against my community. Amish have a strong, divergent group ID that is almost inherent. Many times this divergence is fostered on to communities by the majority through coercion and force, this obviously leads to suspicion or outright rejection of the majority in many cases by the minority group.

how persecuted a group is does correlate with how strong their group identity is, somewhat perversely.

Good points

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #96 on: May 23, 2018, 09:24:03 PM »

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.

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Well wait.  You were the one who first started painting in broad brushes when you generally excused the same action depending on one's minority/majority status.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that's how I perceived your original statement.

I of course recognize there are variables and different situations at the individual level.  But I don't think it's fair to generally excuse one culture's (regardless of strict minority/majority status) influence over their kids' choice in partners and demonize another's if their actions and underlying motivations are essentially the same.

So a white parent has the same latitude in your mind to ask for white grandchildren as an Amish does to have Amish? This is your position?


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Not necessarily.  I think the motivations underlying religion and race are different.  Race seems completely arbitrary to me, whereas the state of a grandchild's soul means something different -- at least it's not arbitrary in my eyes.  So I think the amish have the same latitude as a muslim (or Catholic/Jew/Mennonite/Hindu, etc.) in your example.

I think a white parent has the same latitude to ask for white grandchildren as a mexican/middle eastern/black person has to ask for a mexican/middle eastern/black grandchildren.  Which is to say, I think requesting that your grandchildren be a certain race is an arbitrary (and mean) thing to ask, regardless of the race.

I think it's bad for society if individuals distrust others based on their race. 


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #97 on: May 23, 2018, 10:18:10 PM »

Again your search for a categorical imperative is what is causing you to reach these conclusions. There are all sorts of very common and understandable variables that complicate this that you want to wish away. Again, I think if you were to design a categorical imperative I don’t think any of us would disagree in theory, but in practice, we are influenced by our history and culture and religion and our relative standing in a larger culture given our own identities and family ties and recognizing that when hiding others seems prudent.

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Well wait.  You were the one who first started painting in broad brushes when you generally excused the same action depending on one's minority/majority status.  Maybe I misunderstood you, but that's how I perceived your original statement.

I of course recognize there are variables and different situations at the individual level.  But I don't think it's fair to generally excuse one culture's (regardless of strict minority/majority status) influence over their kids' choice in partners and demonize another's if their actions and underlying motivations are essentially the same.

So a white parent has the same latitude in your mind to ask for white grandchildren as an Amish does to have Amish? This is your position?


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Not necessarily.  I think the motivations underlying religion and race are different.  Race seems completely arbitrary to me, whereas the state of a grandchild's soul means something different -- at least it's not arbitrary in my eyes.  So I think the amish have the same latitude as a muslim (or Catholic/Jew/Mennonite/Hindu, etc.) in your example.

I think a white parent has the same latitude to ask for white grandchildren as a mexican/middle eastern/black person has to ask for a mexican/middle eastern/black grandchildren.  Which is to say, I think requesting that your grandchildren be a certain race is an arbitrary (and mean) thing to ask, regardless of the race.

I think it's bad for society if individuals distrust others based on their race.
Are you saying "souls" are better excuses to have a preference in marriage than decades of oppression?

Offline DQ12

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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #98 on: May 23, 2018, 10:38:05 PM »
Not necessarily.  I think the motivations underlying religion and race are different.  Race seems completely arbitrary to me, whereas the state of a grandchild's soul means something different -- at least it's not arbitrary in my eyes.  So I think the amish have the same latitude as a muslim (or Catholic/Jew/Mennonite/Hindu, etc.) in your example.

I think a white parent has the same latitude to ask for white grandchildren as a mexican/middle eastern/black person has to ask for a mexican/middle eastern/black grandchildren.  Which is to say, I think requesting that your grandchildren be a certain race is an arbitrary (and mean) thing to ask, regardless of the race.

I think it's bad for society if individuals distrust others based on their race.
Are you saying "souls" are better excuses to have a preference in marriage than decades of oppression?
I think it's more rationale and far less arbitrary to have a preference based on religious beliefs rather than race.  Especially with regard to marriage and potential children.  I don't think that's contentious.  If this judge conditioned the trust based on his kids marrying a methodist (rather than a white person), this isn't a story.


None of this is to say I endorse steering offspring to marry or refrain from marrying a certain religion.  I just think the underlying motivations for doing so seem more rational than they do for race.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 10:52:43 PM by Dlew12 »


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Re: Is it really racism...
« Reply #99 on: May 23, 2018, 10:56:58 PM »
Cool
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite