Michigancat - I think I understand your point about the ambient-shoegaze movement. There certainly has been a heavy influx of it into a lot of modern bands, but it definitely isn't just either of those things. Would say its more of a dreampop movement than your traditional shoegaze ala Jesus and Mary Chain, MBV, Slowdive or Ride. Maybe if you are talking about bands like Whirr, but I don't think they are really par for the course...