Author Topic: Supreme Court Cases Thread  (Read 31671 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #975 on: June 30, 2023, 11:09:19 PM »
it has been interesting to watch the conversation both on twitter and here, blithely determined to pretend the issue is about white and black, all but completely ignoring the asian americans that were discriminated against.  it's forever 1866 in america.

https://twitter.com/jaycaspiankang/status/1674916609071386625

I reject the notion that Asians were discriminated against for the same reason why I reject affirmative action in college admissions. They are claiming discrimination because supposedly their grades and test scores merited a larger share of admissions but this completely ignores the fact that schools don't select students exclusively on the grounds of academic accomplishments, or race, or legacy, or any one thing in particular.

I saw an interview with a spokesman for the plaintiffs who literally said "Asians get better grades because we study longer." First of all, who gives a eff? What does that matter to anyone? Secondly, it's tough to muster any sympathy for a group of people so tone deaf and willing to jump feet first into stereotypes.

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #976 on: July 01, 2023, 07:22:35 AM »
I think including the applicant's race as part of the formula lends itself pretty easily to "discrimination based on race," but in the context of access to higher education (especially, especially to law schools), I think it's OK and should be encouraged.  I'd be all for a straight quota system if that's what it took.

You say this knowing that California v. Bakke made quotas plainly unconstitutional. So, you're not really sticking your neck out, here.
Well crap I post on a message board is unlikely to change policy regardless of the constitutionality of my suggestion.  But as always, thanks for the tip.


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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #977 on: July 01, 2023, 07:29:35 AM »
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/harvard-admits-record-number-asian-american-students-black-latino-admi-rcna77923

Where is the outrage about legacy admissions? Not here.

i don't really understand why people think the legacy whatabout is persuasive, but in this case i also don't understand the pairing of your caption and the article you linked.  that article discusses legacy and other preferred admits and quotes extensively from a person making the point that those preferred admits act contra to racial preferences for black and latino students (and both have the effect of reducing the number of asian admits).
Because it is a tiny school so when you add up legacies, recruited athletes, and faculty kids that is almost half of all the white kids. The article also pointed out that Asians are now beginning to benefit from legacy admissions.

The total enrollment of the entire ivy leagues is like slightly bigger than Ohio state so the whole thing is bizarre to me that the solution is not to demand that the schools increase enrollment.


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Offline sys

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #978 on: July 01, 2023, 12:51:38 PM »
I’ve been following this case for a decade and know what’s really driving it. You, sir, are naive.

if i was so cultured and world-wise that i'd concluded that asians are incapable of thinking for themselves, inevitably falling prey to the nearest white man with a check, i think i'd hide my hard won knowledge out of fear that people might misinterpret my wisdom for something less savory.
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Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #979 on: July 01, 2023, 01:21:22 PM »
Did not realize sys graduated summa cum lade from the y-l-a school of “yeah I think I’ll weigh in on that”
but go off, king

Offline Spracne

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #980 on: July 01, 2023, 01:35:33 PM »
I’ve been following this case for a decade and know what’s really driving it. You, sir, are naive.

if i was so cultured and world-wise that i'd concluded that asians are incapable of thinking for themselves, inevitably falling prey to the nearest white man with a check, i think i'd hide my hard won knowledge out of fear that people might misinterpret my wisdom for something less savory.

This is the same guy that is responsible for Fisher v. Univ. Tex. (I & II), Shelby County v. Holder, and Bush v. Vera, among others. His track record is pretty clear, and it's not about Asian Americans. It's because he lost a race for political office because he was in a majority-minority district. 

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #981 on: July 01, 2023, 01:55:43 PM »
I am enjoying Chuck Schumer openly asking for the power of the purse string to be removed from Congress and exclusively placed in the domain of the Executive branch. (Democrat POTUS only)

Offline sys

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #982 on: July 01, 2023, 02:10:20 PM »
I reject the notion that Asians were discriminated against for the same reason

the only way it is possible to reject the notion that harvard discriminated against asian applicants is by unfamiliarity with the facts that have been made public, so i'll outline them here.

harvard discriminated against asian applicants in two ways:

1) harvard used race/ethnicity as an explicit factor in admissions decisions to produce incoming classes with their desired diversity.  race/ethnicity was used in the selection process in two ways.  first, black and latino applicants were tipped up on their overall score (comprised of four ratings: academics, extracurricular, athletic and personal).  second, after preliminary admission decisions were made, admissions officers adjusted decisions to ensure that enough black and latino applicants were selected to produce a class with harvard's preferred diversity.  these facts are not in dispute.  harvard does not deny doing this and it is well documented that they did so.

harvard's class has a finite number of slots available, so offering a preference to black and latino applicants necessarily reduced the number of asian applicants that were accepted.  you are, of course, correct that harvard is free to admit applicants based on whatever legal criteria they chose.  and they did do that; one of those criteria was race/ethnicity.  at the time, that was legal, it no longer is.

2. harvard also discriminated against asian applicants by systematically assigning asian applicants lower scores than white applicants on the personal component of the overall score.  this is necessarily more difficult to prove than the explicit racial/ethnic preferences above, however the data are extremely convincing that asian applicants a) received lower scores than white applicants in the personal category, and b) that lower scores in the category reduced the chances that an asian applicant would be admitted compared to a white applicant.  i've linked the paper outlining that finding below.  it is important here to note that this evidence of discrimination is based on the criteria that harvard chose, not any abstract preference for criteria (such as standardized test scores) where asian applicants scored better than white candidates and that the finding that assigning asian applicants lower personal ratings than white applicants reduced their chances of being admitted is after controlling for all other variables, including legacy preferences, faculty preferences, dean's list (as an aside, children of large donors receive a dean's list preference, not a legacy preference as many people seem to think) preferences and athletic preferences, where white applicants are more likely than asian applicants to have an admissions preference.

as such, there are really only two possible explanations for asian applicants, as a group, receiving lower scores than white applicants on the personal component.  either harvard systematically discriminated against asian applicants via assigning them lower personal ratings or asian applicants to harvard are inferior to white applicants to harvard in the qualities that comprise the personal rating.  criteria for the  personal rating are vague, but a couple of descriptions of what it is meant to encompass stood out to me.  the personal rating "is meant to capture personal qualities such as likeability, courage, and kindness" and an applicant that receives a high personal rating would be understood to be a "very attractive person to be with and have in your school community and widely respected".

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w27068/w27068.pdf


additionally there are a couple of items which i think provide some hint that it is likely that harvard was deliberately attempting to limit the number of asian applicants that were admitted.  one is simply the remarkable consistency in the % of asians in incoming classes.  between 2009 and 2018, the incoming classes at harvard were: 18%, 18%, 19%, 19%, 17%, 20%, 19%, 20%, 20% and 19% asian.  it is understandable that the percent of incoming classes that were black and latino varied little, as there were explicit processes by which admissions officers selected applicants in order to meet diversity targets.  however, there was no explicit race-based metric used to regulate the numbers of asian and white applicants admitted.  yet, nonetheless, the numbers of each class that were asian remained static.  i find that to be curious.

another is that in efforts to recruit students to meet geographic diversity goals, the standardized test score threshold to be targeted for recruitment was lower for white high school students than it was for asian high school students.  of course, recruitment is different than the admissions process.  but that suggests that harvard believed, prior to knowing anything about an individual student's personal rating, that asian applicants would need higher academic metrics to be competitive than would white applicants.


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Offline sys

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #983 on: July 01, 2023, 02:14:44 PM »
I’ve been following this case for a decade and know what’s really driving it. You, sir, are naive.

if i was so cultured and world-wise that i'd concluded that asians are incapable of thinking for themselves, inevitably falling prey to the nearest white man with a check, i think i'd hide my hard won knowledge out of fear that people might misinterpret my wisdom for something less savory.

This is the same guy that is responsible for Fisher v. Univ. Tex. (I & II), Shelby County v. Holder, and Bush v. Vera, among others. His track record is pretty clear, and it's not about Asian Americans. It's because he lost a race for political office because he was in a majority-minority district.

how do you figure he tricked the plaintiffs into suing harvard?  man, i bet they were mad when they found out.
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Offline sys

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #984 on: July 01, 2023, 02:27:32 PM »
Because it is a tiny school so when you add up legacies, recruited athletes, and faculty kids that is almost half of all the white kids. The article also pointed out that Asians are now beginning to benefit from legacy admissions.

The total enrollment of the entire ivy leagues is like slightly bigger than Ohio state so the whole thing is bizarre to me that the solution is not to demand that the schools increase enrollment.

the correct framing on that should be that asian applicants are beginning to be less disproportionately unlikely to benefit from legacy preferences. 

however, as i pointed out in my response to mir and is discussed pretty thoroughly in the papers i've linked:  1) as a group, asian applicants do not benefit from legacy, athletic and dean's list preferences, and 2) asians were discriminated against even after accounting for those preferences.

so it's a bit strange as a what about.  normally when dax pulls a what about it follows the logic of:  you claim that x is bad, but you say nothing about y doing the same thing or worse.  but in this case your what about is:  you claim that harvard is discriminating against asian applicants but here is another way harvard is disadvantaging asian applicants but this way is legal.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #985 on: July 01, 2023, 06:07:48 PM »
Because it is a tiny school so when you add up legacies, recruited athletes, and faculty kids that is almost half of all the white kids. The article also pointed out that Asians are now beginning to benefit from legacy admissions.

The total enrollment of the entire ivy leagues is like slightly bigger than Ohio state so the whole thing is bizarre to me that the solution is not to demand that the schools increase enrollment.

the correct framing on that should be that asian applicants are beginning to be less disproportionately unlikely to benefit from legacy preferences. 

however, as i pointed out in my response to mir and is discussed pretty thoroughly in the papers i've linked:  1) as a group, asian applicants do not benefit from legacy, athletic and dean's list preferences, and 2) asians were discriminated against even after accounting for those preferences.

so it's a bit strange as a what about.  normally when dax pulls a what about it follows the logic of:  you claim that x is bad, but you say nothing about y doing the same thing or worse.  but in this case your what about is:  you claim that harvard is discriminating against asian applicants but here is another way harvard is disadvantaging asian applicants but this way is legal.

Over half the class is white, why did the lawsuit not focus on the ways in which white applicants were privileged if they took up over half the slots?

Offline sys

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #986 on: July 01, 2023, 06:23:39 PM »
Over half the class is white, why did the lawsuit not focus on the ways in which white applicants were privileged if they took up over half the slots?

they did.  all that stuff in my response to mir about how harvard used the personal score to discriminate against asian applicants as compared to white applicants is from the lawsuit.

if you're asking why they didn't challenge legacy, athletic, deans list, etc preferences it's because discriminating on the basis of race is against various laws, but there are no laws against universities choosing who to admit based on alumni relationships, donations or athletic ability.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #987 on: July 01, 2023, 06:30:29 PM »
But “legacy” is basically “white”

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #988 on: July 01, 2023, 06:41:16 PM »
The "hook" here to qualify as state action (for Harvard) is kinda dubious.

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #989 on: July 01, 2023, 06:43:55 PM »
But “legacy” is basically “white”

legacy is about 70% white iirc.  but it isn't illegal to use a selection criterion that results in one race or ethnicity being over represented compared to the population (hard to actually say what the population is, since the admits include intl applicants).  by that logic, it would be illegal to use standardized test scores or hs grades since those metrics would result in a disproportionately asian group of admits.
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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #990 on: July 01, 2023, 06:55:52 PM »
btw, i am using legacy here in the way that harvard admissions does - the child of an alumnus.  many people use a more expansive definition, and it may result in some confusion.  relatives of large donors, famous people and other persons of special interest to the university are termed dean's list applicants.  athletes are athletes.  14% of individuals admitted to harvard (over whatever period was covered in the paper i linked) were legacy applicants and around 10% each were deans list and athletes.  an additional 1-2% were children of faculty and staff.  altogether 29% of those accepted fell into at least one of those categories (less than the sum because some applicants fell into multiple categories).
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Offline steve dave

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #991 on: July 01, 2023, 06:56:29 PM »
Yeah, I mean, whatever man


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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #992 on: July 02, 2023, 01:49:10 PM »
I reject the notion that Asians were discriminated against for the same reason

the only way it is possible to reject the notion that harvard discriminated against asian applicants is by unfamiliarity with the facts that have been made public, so i'll outline them here.

harvard discriminated against asian applicants in two ways:

1) harvard used race/ethnicity as an explicit factor in admissions decisions to produce incoming classes with their desired diversity.  race/ethnicity was used in the selection process in two ways.  first, black and latino applicants were tipped up on their overall score (comprised of four ratings: academics, extracurricular, athletic and personal).  second, after preliminary admission decisions were made, admissions officers adjusted decisions to ensure that enough black and latino applicants were selected to produce a class with harvard's preferred diversity.  these facts are not in dispute.  harvard does not deny doing this and it is well documented that they did so.

harvard's class has a finite number of slots available, so offering a preference to black and latino applicants necessarily reduced the number of asian applicants that were accepted.  you are, of course, correct that harvard is free to admit applicants based on whatever legal criteria they chose.  and they did do that; one of those criteria was race/ethnicity.  at the time, that was legal, it no longer is.

2. harvard also discriminated against asian applicants by systematically assigning asian applicants lower scores than white applicants on the personal component of the overall score.  this is necessarily more difficult to prove than the explicit racial/ethnic preferences above, however the data are extremely convincing that asian applicants a) received lower scores than white applicants in the personal category, and b) that lower scores in the category reduced the chances that an asian applicant would be admitted compared to a white applicant.  i've linked the paper outlining that finding below.  it is important here to note that this evidence of discrimination is based on the criteria that harvard chose, not any abstract preference for criteria (such as standardized test scores) where asian applicants scored better than white candidates and that the finding that assigning asian applicants lower personal ratings than white applicants reduced their chances of being admitted is after controlling for all other variables, including legacy preferences, faculty preferences, dean's list (as an aside, children of large donors receive a dean's list preference, not a legacy preference as many people seem to think) preferences and athletic preferences, where white applicants are more likely than asian applicants to have an admissions preference.

as such, there are really only two possible explanations for asian applicants, as a group, receiving lower scores than white applicants on the personal component.  either harvard systematically discriminated against asian applicants via assigning them lower personal ratings or asian applicants to harvard are inferior to white applicants to harvard in the qualities that comprise the personal rating.  criteria for the  personal rating are vague, but a couple of descriptions of what it is meant to encompass stood out to me.  the personal rating "is meant to capture personal qualities such as likeability, courage, and kindness" and an applicant that receives a high personal rating would be understood to be a "very attractive person to be with and have in your school community and widely respected".

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w27068/w27068.pdf


additionally there are a couple of items which i think provide some hint that it is likely that harvard was deliberately attempting to limit the number of asian applicants that were admitted.  one is simply the remarkable consistency in the % of asians in incoming classes.  between 2009 and 2018, the incoming classes at harvard were: 18%, 18%, 19%, 19%, 17%, 20%, 19%, 20%, 20% and 19% asian.  it is understandable that the percent of incoming classes that were black and latino varied little, as there were explicit processes by which admissions officers selected applicants in order to meet diversity targets.  however, there was no explicit race-based metric used to regulate the numbers of asian and white applicants admitted.  yet, nonetheless, the numbers of each class that were asian remained static.  i find that to be curious.

another is that in efforts to recruit students to meet geographic diversity goals, the standardized test score threshold to be targeted for recruitment was lower for white high school students than it was for asian high school students.  of course, recruitment is different than the admissions process.  but that suggests that harvard believed, prior to knowing anything about an individual student's personal rating, that asian applicants would need higher academic metrics to be competitive than would white applicants.

I'm modifying this because I see you addressed most of this with kk and spracs in following posts, still curious about what I concluded with

You seem to have a decent amount of theories and conclusions mixed in with these facts.

Point one, I've addressed twice now when I stated that I don't think that racial preference in college admissions work and when I said I don't think Asians were discriminated against. How is race being used as a tipping point any more or less relevant than other factors that may considered? Is the admissions score the only factor considered as to whether or not they admit a student? I'm not 100% sure but I'm fairly sure.

I'm curious as to how you can lay out your point #2 and simultaneously argue that the Asians in this lawsuit aren't either willingly or unintentionally being used by Edward Blum. I may be misreading what you posted, but isn't your argument, particularly in point two, that Asians are being discriminated against and white students seem to be the biggest beneficiaries of this discrimination? None of the data and conclusions you made in point two seem to be available on Students for Fair Admission's website. Their latest posted press release also says nothing about legacy admissions. This seems like using black and Hispanic college admissions was a calculated decision to follow the path of least resistance, even though it will do little to nothing to change the supposed desired goal of ensuring Asian students get the level of admissions they have "earned."
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 01:55:24 PM by MakeItRain »



Offline catastrophe

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #995 on: July 03, 2023, 05:33:36 PM »
Eh. Without knowing anything about this, it has either been challenged before and rejected or it has never been challenged before because there’s no legal basis for it. Either way I don’t see it even getting a look from the Supreme Court.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #996 on: July 03, 2023, 08:37:44 PM »
Eh. Without knowing anything about this, it has either been challenged before and rejected or it has never been challenged before because there’s no legal basis for it. Either way I don’t see it even getting a look from the Supreme Court.

When it comes to completely dumb crap the SC is willing to hear, I don’t think we’ve hit rock bottom yet

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #998 on: July 05, 2023, 11:59:45 AM »
Here's a readable story without having to give up your info.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/education/university-of-missouri-system-to-end-race-based-scholarships-after-supreme-court-ruling/article_7b16897c-16cb-11ee-b439-ef1c8cd3b142.html

The University of Missouri system complied with that? What the eff? They didn't have to comply with that. rough ridin' slavers. Minority scholarships have literally nothing to do with the supreme court ruling

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Supreme Court Cases Thread
« Reply #999 on: July 05, 2023, 12:27:13 PM »
I can see the parallel. It's wrong of them to comply before they have to, but if someone files a lawsuit, this court would declare minority scholarships unconstitutional.