Author Topic: Athletes Forcing Change  (Read 94689 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online BIG APPLE CAT

  • smelly poor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6331
  • slide rule enthusiast
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #600 on: July 21, 2020, 04:56:12 PM »
i agree 100%. so who gets to be the standard bearer? Is there a standard or is the only requirement that someone says they feel threatened? Beyond that, how do you prove an emotion in a court of law?

Offline Spracne

  • Point Plank'r
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *
  • Posts: 20950
  • Scholar/Gentleman, But Super Earthy/Organic
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #601 on: July 21, 2020, 05:00:46 PM »
i agree 100%. so who gets to be the standard bearer? Is there a standard or is the only requirement that someone says they feel threatened? Beyond that, how do you prove an emotion in a court of law?

You ask The Reasonable Man how he would feel.

Offline pissclams

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 46345
  • (worst non-premium poster at goEMAW.com)
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #602 on: July 21, 2020, 06:52:33 PM »
i've been going to the reasonable man festive for years but this year's has been cancelled because of covid   :lol:


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44805
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #603 on: July 21, 2020, 10:25:14 PM »
In this very thread (I think it was) you defended your right to call posters on this board honkey, so I have to think you think some racist speech is acceptable.

you could argue that's prejudiced but not racist

the argument being

racism = prejudice + power

Thank you. I knew exactly where this was going to lead, and I've been waiting for it.

By the way I don't ever believe I've defended my right to call anyone a honkey, cracker, or peckerwood. It doesn't need to be defended any more than calling someone an idiot or a dumb ass, or a fat headed freak.

7, I don't actually hope that you don't think calling someone a cracker does or should carry the same weight as calling someone an actual racial slur. You know those that only mean one thing, those that are abhorrent in every context. The argument you seem to be making is akin to calling nude statues pornography. I'm trying to be patient here, but you couldn't have a more privileged viewpoint on this if you tried. You keep trying to divorce the violent history of racism in this country from this conversation. It's important to establishing why using this language shouldn't be legally tolerated.

The ability to use the word honkey has never and will never be used to rally people to commit acts of violence against others like words like n-word, spic, kike, chink, etc.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44805
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #604 on: July 21, 2020, 10:36:33 PM »
i agree 100%. so who gets to be the standard bearer? Is there a standard or is the only requirement that someone says they feel threatened? Beyond that, how do you prove an emotion in a court of law?

You don't have to prove emotion, that's a fool's errand, and frankly an impossible standard that we don't apply to other laws regarding language, intent is the standard.

You don't have to actually be scared if someone tells you they are going to shoot you in the head. You're not exempt from punishment if you scream fire in a crowded movie theatre and everyone isn't scared. Perjury is still perjury even if you profess that you're telling a joke.

I've showed you all in this thread that other countries, even whiter than this one, have laws against hate speech on the books, and it's enforced. People aren't walking around on pins and needles wondering if they're going to get arrested for dressing up like 1980's Michael Jackson. I'm really wondering what the hesitation is. Is it that difficult to legislate even the slightest bit of decency in America?

Offline KITNfury

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 7085
  • Eat My Ass Whole
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #605 on: July 22, 2020, 08:00:21 AM »
 Racism is a belief system, not an action, so power is not required. Jesus Christ people. It may not have teeth (yet) if a powerless person has a racist belief system, but it's still rough ridin' racism. GTFO with the critical race bullshit
I once blew clove smoke in a guy's face that cut in front of me in the line to KJ's.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53675
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #606 on: July 22, 2020, 08:46:53 AM »
Racism is a belief system, not an action, so power is not required. Jesus Christ people. It may not have teeth (yet) if a powerless person has a racist belief system, but it's still rough ridin' racism. GTFO with the critical race bullshit

I'll acknowledge the definition isn't perfect, but it isn't something I came up with. It's a fairly common definition. (and I probably should have added "structural" power)

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jun/11/merriam-webster-racism-definition-revise-kennedy-mitchum


this is also a good listen

https://www.npr.org/2019/07/18/742981792/why-do-some-trump-supporters-avoid-the-word-racist-one-expert-explains

Offline KITNfury

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 7085
  • Eat My Ass Whole
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #607 on: July 22, 2020, 08:52:37 AM »
So the most dyed in the wool hardcore nazi is no longer a racist in Israel. Cool.
I once blew clove smoke in a guy's face that cut in front of me in the line to KJ's.

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53675
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #608 on: July 22, 2020, 09:01:22 AM »
So the most dyed in the wool hardcore nazi is no longer a racist in Israel. Cool.

No, that person would be anti-Semitic. :gocho:

but seriously, it's an interesting scenario. I think due to the history and global balance of power Jews are not fully "in power" like whites in America are. I'd suggest reading more, you seem uncomfortable and unwilling to think a little more deeply about things.

Offline KITNfury

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 7085
  • Eat My Ass Whole
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #609 on: July 22, 2020, 09:10:11 AM »
So the most dyed in the wool hardcore nazi is no longer a racist in Israel. Cool.

No, that person would be anti-Semitic. :gocho:

but seriously, it's an interesting scenario. I think due to the history and global balance of power Jews are not fully "in power" like whites in America are. I'd suggest reading more, you seem uncomfortable and unwilling to think a little more deeply about things.
From my perspective, you're actually defending racism. Hatred of a human, solely due to their race, is racism. It's dangerous in all forms, all they need is a gun or a home made bomb to prove me right. To say otherwise only gives the green light to a group of people to form racist thoughts.

If you want to argue that currently, in the US, white racism is more dangerous than a POC's racism against white people? I would agree.
I once blew clove smoke in a guy's face that cut in front of me in the line to KJ's.

Offline PurpleOil

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1949
  • Make it rain
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #610 on: July 22, 2020, 09:40:57 AM »
i agree 100%. so who gets to be the standard bearer? Is there a standard or is the only requirement that someone says they feel threatened? Beyond that, how do you prove an emotion in a court of law?

You don't have to prove emotion, that's a fool's errand, and frankly an impossible standard that we don't apply to other laws regarding language, intent is the standard.

You don't have to actually be scared if someone tells you they are going to shoot you in the head. You're not exempt from punishment if you scream fire in a crowded movie theatre and everyone isn't scared. Perjury is still perjury even if you profess that you're telling a joke.

I've showed you all in this thread that other countries, even whiter than this one, have laws against hate speech on the books, and it's enforced. People aren't walking around on pins and needles wondering if they're going to get arrested for dressing up like 1980's Michael Jackson. I'm really wondering what the hesitation is. Is it that difficult to legislate even the slightest bit of decency in America?

So what's your stance on the Nation of Islam and their doctrine?

Offline pissclams

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 46345
  • (worst non-premium poster at goEMAW.com)
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #611 on: July 22, 2020, 12:08:52 PM »
People aren't walking around on pins and needles wondering if they're going to get arrested for dressing up like 1980's Michael Jackson.

speaking as someone who had an actual 1980's michael jackson beat it jacket, in the 1980's, i should have been arrested because i was a smooth rough ridin' criminal


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Online star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63770
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #612 on: July 22, 2020, 12:44:36 PM »
In this very thread (I think it was) you defended your right to call posters on this board honkey, so I have to think you think some racist speech is acceptable.

you could argue that's prejudiced but not racist

the argument being

racism = prejudice + power

Thank you. I knew exactly where this was going to lead, and I've been waiting for it.

By the way I don't ever believe I've defended my right to call anyone a honkey, cracker, or peckerwood. It doesn't need to be defended any more than calling someone an idiot or a dumb ass, or a fat headed freak.

7, I don't actually hope that you don't think calling someone a cracker does or should carry the same weight as calling someone an actual racial slur. You know those that only mean one thing, those that are abhorrent in every context. The argument you seem to be making is akin to calling nude statues pornography. I'm trying to be patient here, but you couldn't have a more privileged viewpoint on this if you tried. You keep trying to divorce the violent history of racism in this country from this conversation. It's important to establishing why using this language shouldn't be legally tolerated.

The ability to use the word honkey has never and will never be used to rally people to commit acts of violence against others like words like n-word, spic, kike, chink, etc.

No, I don't think honkey, etc is equivalent. On a 7 point racist speech scale it's a .1, but it still is on the scale. I honestly wasn't trying to do a gotcha or call you a hypocrite.

I don't think we are going to find common ground on this, but I do think it's an interesting viewpoint that has given me more thought on the issue. I read a variety of political bbs's and this is the first time I've seen someone advocate for it in the US.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 01:02:31 PM by star seed 7 »
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline chum1

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 21894
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #613 on: July 22, 2020, 12:47:39 PM »
Was the butt spin an actual break dancing move or just, like, kind of a joke people made?

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15103
    • View Profile
Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #614 on: July 22, 2020, 01:40:12 PM »
So the most dyed in the wool hardcore nazi is no longer a racist in Israel. Cool.

No, that person would be anti-Semitic. :gocho:

but seriously, it's an interesting scenario. I think due to the history and global balance of power Jews are not fully "in power" like whites in America are. I'd suggest reading more, you seem uncomfortable and unwilling to think a little more deeply about things.
From my perspective, you're actually defending racism. Hatred of a human, solely due to their race, is racism. It's dangerous in all forms, all they need is a gun or a home made bomb to prove me right. To say otherwise only gives the green light to a group of people to form racist thoughts.

If you want to argue that currently, in the US, white racism is more dangerous than a POC's racism against white people? I would agree.
Mich’s definition of racism is pretty well accepted, but that doesn’t make it a good lens for determining how we should regulate/condemn speech. If anything it highlights the problems with having a law that prohibits “racist” speech.

It is, however, very useful for appreciating why prejudice against minorities is particularly problematic vs prejudice generally.

Offline DQ12

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 22226
  • #TeamChestHair
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #615 on: July 22, 2020, 02:00:49 PM »
Mich’s definition of racism is pretty well accepted, but that doesn’t make it a good lens for determining how we should regulate/condemn speech. If anything it highlights the problems with having a law that prohibits “racist” speech.
I don't think that definition of racism is "well accepted" at all.  I think a lot of people would argue (including myself) that someone can do or say something racist, regardless of whether or not that someone (or his demographic) has any power at all.

I think Mich's definition has more to do with the concept of institutional racism -- which (at least from my understanding) is a more particularized form of the umbrella term "racism."


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53675
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #616 on: July 22, 2020, 02:04:03 PM »
(it's not my definition)

Offline DQ12

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 22226
  • #TeamChestHair
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #617 on: July 22, 2020, 02:05:01 PM »
(it's not my definition)
lol fair enough.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15103
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #618 on: July 22, 2020, 03:11:29 PM »
Mich’s definition of racism is pretty well accepted, but that doesn’t make it a good lens for determining how we should regulate/condemn speech. If anything it highlights the problems with having a law that prohibits “racist” speech.
I don't think that definition of racism is "well accepted" at all.  I think a lot of people would argue (including myself) that someone can do or say something racist, regardless of whether or not that someone (or his demographic) has any power at all.

I think Mich's definition has more to do with the concept of institutional racism -- which (at least from my understanding) is a more particularized form of the umbrella term "racism."

Yeah sure but that distinction isn’t all that important cause you’re just saying all racial prejudice is racist. As long as you understand that your “institutional racism” equals my “racism” then it doesn’t need to slow down whatever conversation we’re having about race.

Offline DQ12

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 22226
  • #TeamChestHair
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #619 on: July 22, 2020, 04:24:10 PM »
Mich’s definition of racism is pretty well accepted, but that doesn’t make it a good lens for determining how we should regulate/condemn speech. If anything it highlights the problems with having a law that prohibits “racist” speech.
I don't think that definition of racism is "well accepted" at all.  I think a lot of people would argue (including myself) that someone can do or say something racist, regardless of whether or not that someone (or his demographic) has any power at all.

I think Mich's definition has more to do with the concept of institutional racism -- which (at least from my understanding) is a more particularized form of the umbrella term "racism."

Yeah sure but that distinction isn’t all that important cause you’re just saying all racial prejudice is racist. As long as you understand that your “institutional racism” equals my “racism” then it doesn’t need to slow down whatever conversation we’re having about race.
But it does slow it down, imo, because we have different definitions of the same thing and that thing is what's trying to be combated.  If we're drafting a law that prohibits "racist speech" then it's important to understand what "racist speech" contemplates. 

I don't think "racist speech" should be prohibited but I also especially don't think we should prohibit (or legally define/apply) "racist speech" as contingent on the race of the listener or speaker.  A law like that would seem racially discriminatory on its face.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15103
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #620 on: July 22, 2020, 04:26:26 PM »
Yeah, I mean, that’s what I said.

Offline DQ12

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 22226
  • #TeamChestHair
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #621 on: July 22, 2020, 04:52:01 PM »
Yeah, I mean, that’s what I said.
I see what you're saying now.  Long day.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline gatoveintisiete

  • Racist Piece of Shit
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 4036
  • Cold Ass Honkey
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #622 on: July 22, 2020, 05:02:27 PM »
I'm not gonna sit around this thread all day while you smart guys insinuate MIR's point of view is dumb
 :buh-bye:
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline Spracne

  • Point Plank'r
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *
  • Posts: 20950
  • Scholar/Gentleman, But Super Earthy/Organic
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #623 on: July 22, 2020, 05:57:06 PM »
I'm not gonna sit around this thread all day while you smart guys insinuate MIR's point of view is dumb
 :buh-bye:

Oh boy. You're really gonna get it. Roundabout 2:30 A.M. or so.

Offline gatoveintisiete

  • Racist Piece of Shit
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 4036
  • Cold Ass Honkey
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #624 on: July 22, 2020, 06:40:18 PM »
2:30 is when the honkey tonks let out
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.