Author Topic: Athletes Forcing Change  (Read 94644 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63767
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #575 on: July 14, 2020, 09:49:56 AM »
It's a 12yr old edge lord going for shock value and attention
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #576 on: July 14, 2020, 10:09:09 AM »
Or just being a stupid idiot thinking he’s funny. (Maybe that’s the same thing.)

I don’t think a 12 year old should face punitive prison/jail time for really anything. I could really only see it if they are legitimately considered a threat to public safety, which would rule out pretty much all the keyboard warriors/racists.

Offline PurpleOil

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1949
  • Make it rain
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #577 on: July 14, 2020, 10:42:31 AM »
Clearly none of you have played COD online if you think 12 year olds are picking up negative traits from either their parents or friend's parents.

Offline 420seriouscat69

  • Don't get zapped! #zap
  • Wackycat
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63922
  • #1 rated - gE NFL Scout
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #578 on: July 14, 2020, 10:49:05 AM »
I was playing a crap ton of sports when I was 12 and behaved myself.  :cyclist:

Offline bucket

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 9524
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #579 on: July 14, 2020, 11:28:02 AM »
Clearly none of you have played COD online if you think 12 year olds are picking up negative traits from either their parents or friend's parents.

In my experience the 12 year olds are the worst and most racist.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37048
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #580 on: July 14, 2020, 11:46:43 AM »
Or just being a stupid idiot thinking he’s funny. (Maybe that’s the same thing.)

I don’t think a 12 year old should face punitive prison/jail time for really anything. I could really only see it if they are legitimately considered a threat to public safety, which would rule out pretty much all the keyboard warriors/racists.

I think community service every weekend for 2 years would be about right.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #581 on: July 14, 2020, 11:45:22 PM »
I mean that sure seems actionable in the States as well.
Maybe for the threatening to show up but not anything else.

And arresting a 12 year old seems a tad extreme.

They take that stuff seriously over there. Generally when someone gets arrested for publicly being racist, they get community service, I can't imagine how this will be different.

Or just being a stupid idiot thinking he’s funny. (Maybe that’s the same thing.)

I don’t think a 12 year old should face punitive prison/jail time for really anything. I could really only see it if they are legitimately considered a threat to public safety, which would rule out pretty much all the keyboard warriors/racists.

Being a threat to public safety isn't the standard for charging people for racial abuse over there. He's not going to jail, but he should be punished for breaking the law. 12 year olds absolutely know what racism is, their targets, whether it's a classmate or a professional football star, certainly knows what racism is.

In this country we seem to soft pedal and easily forgive racism, without regard for the need of the offender to learn hard lessons about their actions or without considerations of the victims of the abuse. One of my children, when she was seven was told by a classmate, "shut up or I'll make you pick cotton." Do you think my kid cared whether or not this boy learned it from his parents or not? By the way, the administration just made excuses for the kid and there were no repercussions, this was with my wife teaching in the same building.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #582 on: July 15, 2020, 08:29:20 AM »
If the 7 year old hit your kid would you have been calling for him to be arrested?

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #583 on: July 15, 2020, 08:25:23 PM »
If the 7 year old hit your kid would you have been calling for him to be arrested?

No, what in the world does that have to do with anything?

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #584 on: July 15, 2020, 10:13:30 PM »
Because your anecdote about verbal abuse was in response to two comments about arresting children being excessive?

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37048
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #585 on: July 16, 2020, 12:08:47 AM »
Because your anecdote about verbal abuse was in response to two comments about arresting children being excessive?

I doubt a simple arrest over there is the violent, potentially deadly act that it is over here.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #586 on: July 17, 2020, 03:21:26 PM »
Because your anecdote about verbal abuse was in response to two comments about arresting children being excessive?

I doubt a simple arrest over there is the violent, potentially deadly act that it is over here.

The kid is going to get community service and cops there don't have guns, so yeah, the kid wasn't in danger of getting Tamar Rice'd.

My actual issue with catastrophe's question is that he seems to think that a 7 year old should be held to the same behavioral standards as a 12 year old, that's laughably ignorant.

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15097
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #587 on: July 17, 2020, 10:11:52 PM »
MIR, we were talking about arresting 12 year olds being excessive and you responded with a story about the school going soft on a 7 year old.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #588 on: July 19, 2020, 04:15:27 PM »
MIR, we were talking about arresting 12 year olds being excessive and you responded with a story about the school going soft on a 7 year old.

Yeah, in response to some of you trying to act like a 12 year old should be absolved of responsibility of breaking the law, in this case being racist. I'm guessing most of you wouldn't feel the same if this 12 year old stole an Xbox.

Offline gatoveintisiete

  • Racist Piece of Shit
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 4036
  • Cold Ass Honkey
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #589 on: July 19, 2020, 05:19:04 PM »
MIR, we were talking about arresting 12 year olds being excessive and you responded with a story about the school going soft on a 7 year old.

Yeah, in response to some of you trying to act like a 12 year old should be absolved of responsibility of breaking the law, in this case being racist. I'm guessing most of you wouldn't feel the same if this 12 year old stole an Xbox.


congrats Mir, you are now the worst person in the world.
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #590 on: July 19, 2020, 08:57:02 PM »
MIR, we were talking about arresting 12 year olds being excessive and you responded with a story about the school going soft on a 7 year old.

Yeah, in response to some of you trying to act like a 12 year old should be absolved of responsibility of breaking the law, in this case being racist. I'm guessing most of you wouldn't feel the same if this 12 year old stole an Xbox.


congrats Mir, you are now the worst person in the world.

 :confused:

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #591 on: July 21, 2020, 01:18:41 PM »
Harassment is harassment, regardless of if it's "hey coon", "hey fattie", "hey towelhead", or whatever. Applying a racial component does not negate the harassment. I honestly have no idea how you came to think that's my belief.

Is the line you're trying to draw here is it's only harassment if the repeated taunts are directed to one solitary person instead of a group of people? Or are you attempting to say that tweets should have a different standard than spoken word?

Well I very much disagree there
The EEOC explicitly calls out offensive jokes. I realize the EEOC doesn't have jurisdiction here but it's a pretty clear definition.

https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment



And that goes back to our initial disagreement that the university has any responsibility to shield students (adults) from speech they don't like, particularly when it doesn't even happen on campus.

Also, I truly do not understand the not feeling safe because of this guy being enrolled. I don't mean that to be dismissive at all. I try to look though other people's eyes to understand their perspective and it's just not clicking here. To me, the jaden dude is in far more danger from the student body as a whole than any student is in danger from him.



Personally I don't think there is anything to solve. Racist speech should not be punished by the government.

Why not?



Because I believe that freedom of speech is the cornerstone of a free society. Yes, there are some pretty specific limitations mostly dealing with breaking the law. I understand that you want to file racism in that category as well but it comes dangerously close to thought crime and that's just not something I can support.

If a person is being threatening or harrasing, that's a different discussion.

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63767
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #592 on: July 21, 2020, 01:33:32 PM »
Let me try this from a different direction, this all started because you feel racist speech should be illegal. Is there any circumstance that (you feel) racist speech should not be against the law?
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63767
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #593 on: July 21, 2020, 02:07:17 PM »
To answer your question though, yes targeting and repetition make a harassment case stronger. I don't know that without targeting you could make a legal case.  As for what if's, I don't really know what the absolute line is. Wearing a swastika shirt to class every day would rise to some level of learning disruption for other students and I I'm honestly split. If it's a guy wearing a swastika shirt walking down Moro everyday, then I'm absolutely certain that I don't want any legal consequences for that behavior. If that same guy is walking down Moro and comments "another coon" any time he passes a black person, well I really don't know what to do about that the same as I don't know what to do about someone pointing out all the overweight people with "another fattie".

Tweets are slightly different in that they are more of a public forum (the Moro sidewalk), but can also be used much more personally. I don't necessarily think they should be held to a different standard, but it should also be acknowledged that no one is forced to see your tweets (unless @'d).
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline MakeItRain

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 44804
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #594 on: July 21, 2020, 03:23:32 PM »
To answer your first question/post. Race, like gender are protected classes under the law already (weight obviously is not). If your default is to have a broad interpretation of what racist language should be protected then you are essentially allowing for all racist language should be protected. Yes, I think the scope of what racist language is allowed should be significantly narrowed. Almost all racist language, by nature can very credibly be viewed as threatening. If you don't think that students should be able to attend a public university without being subjected to racism, I don't know the circumstance in which you won't allow it, which is unacceptable because there are plenty of cases of where racism is not legal.

No, I can't think of a single case where racist language either isn't intentionally isn't used to intimidate or wouldn't be reasonably deemed threatening. The history of racism in the world is overwhelmingly violent. Should we just ignore that because you (general) are scared that someone will try to get you arrested or fired for saying that Beyonce is ugly and a shitty singer?

Hope I answered your question, I may not have.

Offline star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63767
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #595 on: July 21, 2020, 03:44:48 PM »
In this very thread (I think it was) you defended your right to call posters on this board honkey, so I have to think you think some racist speech is acceptable.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53674
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #596 on: July 21, 2020, 03:50:16 PM »
In this very thread (I think it was) you defended your right to call posters on this board honkey, so I have to think you think some racist speech is acceptable.

you could argue that's prejudiced but not racist

the argument being

racism = prejudice + power

Offline gatoveintisiete

  • Racist Piece of Shit
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 4036
  • Cold Ass Honkey
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #597 on: July 21, 2020, 04:21:40 PM »
it wouldn't make it any more desirable
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

  • smelly poor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6331
  • slide rule enthusiast
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #598 on: July 21, 2020, 04:49:22 PM »
To answer your first question/post. Race, like gender are protected classes under the law already (weight obviously is not). If your default is to have a broad interpretation of what racist language should be protected then you are essentially allowing for all racist language should be protected. Yes, I think the scope of what racist language is allowed should be significantly narrowed. Almost all racist language, by nature can very credibly be viewed as threatening. If you don't think that students should be able to attend a public university without being subjected to racism, I don't know the circumstance in which you won't allow it, which is unacceptable because there are plenty of cases of where racism is not legal.

No, I can't think of a single case where racist language either isn't intentionally isn't used to intimidate or wouldn't be reasonably deemed threatening. The history of racism in the world is overwhelmingly violent. Should we just ignore that because you (general) are scared that someone will try to get you arrested or fired for saying that Beyonce is ugly and a shitty singer?

Hope I answered your question, I may not have.

I have always agreed with the statement "you do not have the right to not be offended" and i don't think i will ever change my mind on that. However, i do believe that you have the right to not be threatened. I think the problem is that in the vast majority of instances there is so much gray area between offended and threatened there is no way it could possibly be legislated.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37048
    • View Profile
Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #599 on: July 21, 2020, 04:51:27 PM »
A lot of racist language is merely offensive to me, but threatening to others.