Author Topic: The riot to reform police thread  (Read 105432 times)

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Offline star seed 7

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1825 on: November 11, 2020, 07:34:37 AM »
They remind me of normal Americans. Why is it so hard to admit there was a failure of messaging here?
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Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1826 on: November 11, 2020, 09:40:25 AM »
They remind me of normal Americans. Why is it so hard to admit there was a failure of messaging here?

failure by whom?

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1827 on: November 11, 2020, 10:15:32 AM »
Activists that advocate(d) for defunding the police.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1828 on: November 11, 2020, 11:00:20 AM »
Activists that advocate(d) for defunding the police.

what does that have to do with voting for Trump instead of Biden?

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1829 on: November 11, 2020, 11:09:36 AM »
Nothing, I actually missed that part of the tweet.

This still shows that with better messaging, police reform is very possible. Even trump voters support it!
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 11:14:40 AM by star seed 7 »
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Offline sys

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1830 on: November 11, 2020, 02:57:25 PM »
dems can't control activists, but when activists land on a toxic message, dems need to do a better job of distancing themselves from that message and condemning it.  they did not do that well.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1832 on: November 11, 2020, 03:56:23 PM »
dems can't control activists, but when activists land on a toxic message, dems need to do a better job of distancing themselves from that message and condemning it.  they did not do that well.

I can't believe you and 7 are still on this, they didn't need to condemn crap. Why is this literally the only issue that anyone insists that politicians should even attempt to address activists? No one is asking liberals to condemn Greenpeace to make Americans better accept environmental laws? Anyone asking republicans to repudiate right to life extremists to make abortion restrictions more palatable?

The democrats just need to go about fixing the country and do what they've always done when republicans exaggerate their platform stances, ignore it.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1833 on: November 11, 2020, 03:59:34 PM »
Why is this literally the only issue that anyone insists that politicians should even attempt to address activists?

because there is evidence that suggests it was part of the reason democrats underperformed expectations.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline star seed 7

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1834 on: November 11, 2020, 04:04:33 PM »
This is just me, but I want the things that make up defunding the police to happen and having a digestible message that doesn't require someone to say "well it doesn't ACTUALLY mean defund the police..." might help

And I'm not asking anyone for condemnation, I'm asking for better marketing which for some reason you are furiously against.
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Offline sys

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1835 on: November 11, 2020, 04:08:32 PM »
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1836 on: November 11, 2020, 04:15:42 PM »
There are people who truly want to abolish the police and there are people who want allocations of money to best work toward the most productive end results.  Those two groups probably think each other suck, but they tolerate each other to have a large group to fight against whatever boogeyman they think wants cops to be given unlimited budgets and continue to be shitty.  And they both probably thought that "defund the police" was terminology that could reflect what each actually wanted, and that it would thus work as a compromise for their unholy alliance.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1837 on: November 11, 2020, 04:48:41 PM »
I think that MIR is the outlier here, not Sys and 7. It’s shitty messaging.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1838 on: November 11, 2020, 05:00:47 PM »
it's absolutely a bad slogan but it's unclear to me who used it during the election cycle. As has been discussed, Dem politicians (outside of AOC discussing a NYPD police matter in June) haven't touched it. I think it's pretty obvious she recognizes she made a mistake, too, and in her latest NYT interview she wouldn't even say "Dems should support Black Lives Matter", she referred to it as "The Movement for Black Lives".

Blaming these unnamed activists and AOC for Dems underperforming is a stretch IMO. The focus group folks sound like they needed an excuse to vote for Trump, and the Democratic Party establishment wants to blame anyone but themselves for underperforming.

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Offline star seed 7

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1840 on: November 11, 2020, 05:08:04 PM »
I agree with her there, but would expand that there is/was a pretty severe failure to "develop, own, win, and lead"
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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1841 on: November 11, 2020, 05:10:34 PM »
I agree with her there, but would expand that there is/was a pretty severe failure to "develop, own, win, and lead"

Again, who failed there? The Biden campaign and moderate dems or "The Squad"?

Offline kim carnes

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1842 on: November 11, 2020, 05:15:30 PM »
I think it’s offensive that democrats are pretending that people using the phrase don’t want to defund the police, many of them do, saying otherwise is just damage control.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1843 on: November 11, 2020, 05:28:55 PM »
Maybe both? There is no reason there shouldn't be a national message on this issue by now.  If anyone has come up with something better, I sure am not aware of it. Localities will have to do the actual work, but a national message will help a lot.

I think the bad polling of "defund the police" scared a lot of politicians off doing anything except saying they do not support it (while the opposition was gifted a perfect talking point). AOC and other super lib progressives obviously have the voter base to have more lee-way here.

I'm mostly just frustrated.
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Offline sys

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1844 on: November 11, 2020, 05:32:44 PM »
it's absolutely a bad slogan but it's unclear to me who used it during the election cycle.

a parallel is with qanon and republicans.  very, very few republican electeds went out of there way to use qanon acceptance, but a small number flirted with overt acceptance of parts of qanon thought and almost all were careful not to strongly disavow and distance themselves.  as a result, the entire party was understandably tarnished with being qanon adjacent.

the message for republicans with qanon and for dems with respect to defund/abolish the police activists should have been that these are not serious people, we don't agree with them, they are outside the bounds of reasonable discourse and we don't seek or desire their support.


btw, i don't know if this list is accurate or comprehensive, but i have no reason to think it isn't at least the former.

https://twitter.com/CautiousLefty/status/1326337672231718914

"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1845 on: November 11, 2020, 05:33:45 PM »
Maybe both? There is no reason there shouldn't be a national message on this issue by now.  If anyone has come up with something better, I sure am not aware of it. Localities will have to do the actual work, but a national message will help a lot.

I think the bad polling of "defund the police" scared a lot of politicians off doing anything except saying they do not support it (while the opposition was gifted a perfect talking point). AOC and other super lib progressives obviously have the voter base to have more lee-way here.

I'm mostly just frustrated.

well I, for one, would be very happy if the moderate wing looked to AOC to help craft a national message regarding police.

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1846 on: November 11, 2020, 05:38:00 PM »
I would be all ears
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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1847 on: November 11, 2020, 05:38:21 PM »
I think it’s offensive that democrats are pretending that people using the phrase don’t want to defund the police, many of them do, saying otherwise is just damage control.

i think the problem was you had some truly outside the discourse activists come up with "defund the police", which accurately described what they thought should happen, and then you had the sort of next level of serious and semi-serious activists and some dem electeds most adjacent to that group that tried to adopt the slogan and backfill it with more acceptable policy and that was a giant failure and a mistake that should have been obvious in real time.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1848 on: November 11, 2020, 05:39:25 PM »
it's absolutely a bad slogan but it's unclear to me who used it during the election cycle.

a parallel is with qanon and republicans.  very, very few republican electeds went out of there way to use qanon acceptance, but a small number flirted with overt acceptance of parts of qanon thought and almost all were careful not to strongly disavow and distance themselves.  as a result, the entire party was understandably tarnished with being qanon adjacent.

the message for republicans with qanon and for dems with respect to defund/abolish the police activists should have been that these are not serious people, we don't agree with them, they are outside the bounds of reasonable discourse and we don't seek or desire their support.

good grief that's an incredibly dumb parallel

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Re: The riot to reform police thread
« Reply #1849 on: November 11, 2020, 05:41:26 PM »
good grief that's an incredibly dumb parallel

feel free to describe why, if you disagree with it.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."