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Offline sys

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political hobbyist thread
« on: April 11, 2020, 01:47:34 AM »
pretty good discussion of how the theoretical winning sanders coalition didn't materialize with observations on the broader democratic coalition as currently construed.



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we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Online chum1

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2020, 08:16:47 AM »
Hindsight:

If lots of non-college and rural whites support Trump, why would you expect their peers who might not to have completely different priorities? Like, "your three best friends want THE WALL, but I can tell that you're interested in hearing a detailed account of what people get wrong about socialism and how its policies can actually work in America!"

Attacking a party "establishment" is not a good way to get members of that party to vote for you - and ESPECIALLY so with Southern black Democrats.

Offline memphis

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2020, 09:20:32 AM »
Hindsight:

If lots of non-college and rural whites support Trump, why would you expect their peers who might not to have completely different priorities? Like, "your three best friends want THE WALL, but I can tell that you're interested in hearing a detailed account of what people get wrong about socialism and how its policies can actually work in America!"

Attacking a party "establishment" is not a good way to get members of that party to vote for you - and ESPECIALLY so with Southern black Democrats.

Part of it was explained that they didn't like Hillary and that's not policy driven.

Could Trump also have driven it himself? Outsider who wants to radically change a party probably looked worse after having Trump as president (again this isn't a policy or world view driven thing but hesitancy against rate of change/"revolution", but I guess it also underlines they don't respond to socialism inherently).
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 09:37:16 AM by memphis »

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2020, 07:15:14 PM »
I read a quarter of that, skimmed another quarter and gave up on the rest. The entire premise of that article is flawed. Know how I know that? The column is about what the campaign sought to accomplish but ultimately failed to do. Unless I missed it, there is no sourcing from Sanders or his campaign to verify any of this. It's presented as a factual post-mortem, but it's total theory, of which he seems to have no particular insight outside of some cherry picked quotes from other sources stripped of context.

I don't know why this column, which is a testament to the vastness of the internet, deserved to be the basis of a new thread. This is the greatest example of your blindspot, sys, this is a flawed slice of confirmation bias that has no value greater than any other progressive think piece out there.

Offline sys

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2020, 08:37:02 PM »
ok, thanks mir.
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Online michigancat

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2020, 09:05:31 PM »
I read the whole thing and I think not getting to establishment blacks really hurt him more than anything. Also with the attitude of fighting the Democratic establishment. I think he could have gotten his message across without attacking what people associated with Obama's legacy. Also they probably had misplaced confidence that crazy anti-Hillary vote in 2016 that made them think they could be so anti establishment
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 09:13:53 PM by michigancat »

Online chum1

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2020, 09:48:26 PM »
I don't understand his messaging at all. Embracing an unpopular term like "socialism"??? Totally unnecessary.

I thought the article did a nice job of highlighting his traditional view of class and describing how it doesn't really have an audience right now.

I think perceived electability was a pretty big primary issue that wasn't addressed in the article.

Offline sys

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2020, 10:32:34 PM »
I read the whole thing and I think not getting to establishment blacks really hurt him more than anything. Also with the attitude of fighting the Democratic establishment. I think he could have gotten his message across without attacking what people associated with Obama's legacy. Also they probably had misplaced confidence that crazy anti-Hillary vote in 2016 that made them think they could be so anti establishment

that's more or less the space warren tried to run in.  progressive party-loyalist.
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Offline sys

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2020, 10:34:30 PM »
I think perceived electability was a pretty big primary issue that wasn't addressed in the article.

it's definitely way up on the list of people's priorities.  but i think decision-making usually flows in the opposite direction - people decide who they want to vote for and then ascribe to that person the trait of electability.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Online michigancat

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2020, 10:49:59 PM »


I read the whole thing and I think not getting to establishment blacks really hurt him more than anything. Also with the attitude of fighting the Democratic establishment. I think he could have gotten his message across without attacking what people associated with Obama's legacy. Also they probably had misplaced confidence that crazy anti-Hillary vote in 2016 that made them think they could be so anti establishment

that's more or less the space warren tried to run in.  progressive party-loyalist.

I thought the wine cave and anti-PAC stuff was pretty aggressive anti-establishment messaging even if she didn't explicitly say she was up against the Democratic establishment. (Why did Bernie tweet that when he was in the lead?????)

Online michigancat

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2020, 10:52:28 PM »


I think perceived electability was a pretty big primary issue that wasn't addressed in the article.

it's definitely way up on the list of people's priorities.  but i think decision-making usually flows in the opposite direction - people decide who they want to vote for and then ascribe to that person the trait of electability.

I don't think that's what was happening this time.

Offline sys

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2020, 11:07:49 PM »
I thought the wine cave and anti-PAC stuff was pretty aggressive anti-establishment messaging even if she didn't explicitly say she was up against the Democratic establishment.

normie dems don't consider the democratic party to be synonymous with pacs or fundraising.  that's a progressive viewpoint.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Online chum1

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2020, 11:10:27 PM »
I think perceived electability was a pretty big primary issue that wasn't addressed in the article.

it's definitely way up on the list of people's priorities.  but i think decision-making usually flows in the opposite direction - people decide who they want to vote for and then ascribe to that person the trait of electability.

Yeah, people don't want to think they're wasting their vote. But don't you think there was more to it than that this year? More value than usual on winning because the opponent is more hated than usual?

If so, Sanders' divisiveness may have hurt him more than the article suggests.

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2020, 11:20:08 PM »
I thought the article did a nice job of highlighting his traditional view of class and describing how it doesn't really have an audience right now.

Further, I'm not sure many of his supporters view class in the way that he does. Some do. It's an interesting question.

Offline sys

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2020, 11:47:46 PM »
But don't you think there was more to it than that this year? More value than usual on winning because the opponent is more hated than usual?

yeah, i think voters valued it more than normal, but i think when people try to determine who is electable they mostly do so by projecting their own preferences onto the electorate.

that's not to say they aren't sincere in the effort or desire.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2020, 12:33:47 AM »
But don't you think there was more to it than that this year? More value than usual on winning because the opponent is more hated than usual?

yeah, i think voters valued it more than normal, but i think when people try to determine who is electable they mostly do so by projecting their own preferences onto the electorate.

that's not to say they aren't sincere in the effort or desire.

I don't think you're giving people enough credit. We differentiate betwen our own desires and the desires of others literally all the time. We often sacrifice.

I've seen several examples of women on twitter who both hate Biden and still wanted him to be the nominee because they hate Trump WAY more and figure Biden has the best chance to beat him. It would be absurd to say they prefer Biden to other Democrats that they do not hate. That might seem strange to me in other years, but it does not in 2020.

Offline sys

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2020, 02:20:00 AM »
i think the approach i mentioned is much more common.
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Online michigancat

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2020, 02:40:25 PM »
I thought the wine cave and anti-PAC stuff was pretty aggressive anti-establishment messaging even if she didn't explicitly say she was up against the Democratic establishment.

normie dems don't consider the democratic party to be synonymous with pacs or fundraising.  that's a progressive viewpoint.

If that's the case, I guess I don't understand what specific attacks Normie Dems took issue with from Bernie. Just the fact that he said he was going up against the establishment?

Offline sys

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2020, 10:07:56 PM »
not sure i follow.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2020, 11:17:23 PM »
I thought the wine cave and anti-PAC stuff was pretty aggressive anti-establishment messaging even if she didn't explicitly say she was up against the Democratic establishment.

normie dems don't consider the democratic party to be synonymous with pacs or fundraising.  that's a progressive viewpoint.

If that's the case, I guess I don't understand what specific attacks Normie Dems took issue with from Bernie. Just the fact that he said he was going up against the establishment?

The people who took exception to him saying he was taking the democratic party were
1. Not paying attention to the Sanders led progressives and the rest of the party going back to 2016, and not limited to the election.
2. Not reflective of the people who voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary. Political junkies conflate how they behave with how most people vote. Nobody cares about any of this crap. Biden beat Sanders the same reason that Hillary did. People know the Obama tie and the electability resonates more with people who aren't consumed with politics than an old independent from Vermont. The messaging from any of the progressives didn't matter much because most voters aren't interested in drilling down that far.

Online chum1

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2020, 07:05:29 AM »
If that's the case, I guess I don't understand what specific attacks Normie Dems took issue with from Bernie. Just the fact that he said he was going up against the establishment?

This is a great thread.


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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2020, 07:43:25 AM »
Many people believe that causes associated with the Democratic Party and its leaders have done a lot of good things for a lot of people. Many volunteer their time or money on behalf of these causes. When Sanders talks about leading a revolution against the Democratic establishment, he's dismissing these people. They are part of the Democratic establishment. They have an affinity for it. They've made an investment in it.

Offline sys

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2020, 08:45:57 AM »
another discussion of the left's place in the democratic party as illuminated by sanders 2020.

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Online michigancat

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2020, 09:29:28 AM »
Many people believe that causes associated with the Democratic Party and its leaders have done a lot of good things for a lot of people. Many volunteer their time or money on behalf of these causes. When Sanders talks about leading a revolution against the Democratic establishment, he's dismissing these people. They are part of the Democratic establishment. They have an affinity for it. They've made an investment in it.
That makes sense

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Re: political hobbyist thread
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2020, 09:32:32 AM »
That article helps shed some light for me on why Sanders and his supporters might have thought he could get more of the non college and rural white vote. And also their seeming reluctance to distinguish between Repiblicans and Democrats. Overcommitment to the idea of class distinctions/conflicts.