Author Topic: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread  (Read 1050188 times)

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Offline Trim

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14250 on: March 02, 2021, 03:28:28 PM »
Shout to abortion for whatever role it's had in getting us past the pandemic.

Offline catastrophe

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CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14251 on: March 02, 2021, 03:29:53 PM »
All that said I won’t argue that the WaPo headline is sensationalizing a story that hinges on a pretty fine distinction.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14252 on: March 02, 2021, 03:37:33 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 

Again - here's the statement: "When ethically irreproachable Covid-19 vaccines are not available [...] it is morally acceptable to receive Covid-19 vaccines that have used cell lines from aborted fetuses..."

W/r/t the purpose - The archdiocese is specifically referencing the JNJ vaccine, which uses fetal tissue in manufacturing, and comparing it to moderna/pfizer, which used fetal tissue in testing.  On my reading, the Vatican statement I posted didn't distinguish between the use in testing/manufacturing -- hence the value of the Archdiocese's statement (which is effectively "if faced with the decision, use in testing isn't as bad as use in manufacturing").

You can call the whole thing stupid and irrelevant if you want, and that's fine with me if you see it that way.  But the archdiocese's charge doesn't contradict anything the Vatican says. And neither the archdiocese, nor the Vatican are telling people that they can't get the JNJ vaccine.  They are each saying that if less morally contentious solutions are available, opt for those instead.  Which, as a general proposition, is about as close to a categorical imperative as there is.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 03:41:09 PM by DQ12 »


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14253 on: March 02, 2021, 03:41:00 PM »
Which vaccination center offers a menu?

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14254 on: March 02, 2021, 03:43:49 PM »
Saying circumstance A is morally permissible does not mean all other options are morally impermissible. Looking at the two statements side by side, I agree the Archdiocese is probably not trying to undermine anything the Vatican has said, but it’s a bit reckless of them not to CLEARLY state that there are no issues with taking J&J if it is the one offered to you.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14255 on: March 02, 2021, 03:44:49 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14256 on: March 02, 2021, 03:51:06 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
truuuuu

I get that the moral philosophy of the vaccines can be kind of heady stuff for people and sound ridiculous if you're not Catholic (or not a very dogmatic Catholic).  I also get that sometimes, Catholic doctrine comes in pretty serious conflict with fairly well-accepted societal norms, but the attention the archdiocese got for this fairly mild statement is surprising.


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14257 on: March 02, 2021, 04:04:22 PM »
Thank you to the aborters and to Joe Biden for guiding us out of this pandemic, we are truly blessed!
:adios:

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14258 on: March 02, 2021, 04:19:20 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
truuuuu

I get that the moral philosophy of the vaccines can be kind of heady stuff for people and sound ridiculous if you're not Catholic (or not a very dogmatic Catholic).  I also get that sometimes, Catholic doctrine comes in pretty serious conflict with fairly well-accepted societal norms, but the attention the archdiocese got for this fairly mild statement is surprising.

If you are going to say that you aren't going to hell for taking the J&J why say this at all?  I do not know a single spot that gives you a chip choice

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14259 on: March 02, 2021, 04:23:14 PM »
Gives new meaning to "pro-choice"

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14260 on: March 02, 2021, 04:28:10 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
:nono:

If A then Y =/= If not A then not Y

Maybe you mean the colloquial reverse? But I’ve taken enough symbolic logic courses to know better than to fall into that mistake.

Apologies for derailing. I just don’t want my fellow message boarders to be misled.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14261 on: March 02, 2021, 04:34:14 PM »
I had a logic professor at Cats U named Serge.  Anyone have that cat?

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14262 on: March 02, 2021, 04:37:00 PM »
Is dolly parton just the best or what?

https://twitter.com/DollyParton/status/1366866210852323328

Also the diocese should have kept its mouth shut

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14263 on: March 02, 2021, 04:38:57 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
:nono:

If A then Y =/= If not A then not Y

Maybe you mean the colloquial reverse? But I’ve taken enough symbolic logic courses to know better than to fall into that mistake.

Apologies for derailing. I just don’t want my fellow message boarders to be misled.

Are you contrapositive?

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14264 on: March 02, 2021, 04:49:19 PM »
Is dolly parton just the best or what?

https://twitter.com/DollyParton/status/1366866210852323328

Also the diocese should have kept its mouth shut

That's my point.  If you making the exception, why make an announcement?  How many of these folks knew anything about the fetusccine?

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14265 on: March 02, 2021, 04:50:27 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
:nono:

If A then Y =/= If not A then not Y

Maybe you mean the colloquial reverse? But I’ve taken enough symbolic logic courses to know better than to fall into that mistake.

Apologies for derailing. I just don’t want my fellow message boarders to be misled.

Are you contrapositive?
What I said was right, but I think I failed to respond to the issue in your statement. If the premise is [if x isn’t available, y is ok] the reverse would be [IF y isn’t ok, then X is available].

The distinction is that you’re not making a judgement call as to whether Y is or is not ok. You’re simply saying that a necessary condition for Y being not ok is X being available.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14266 on: March 02, 2021, 04:54:22 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
:nono:

If A then Y =/= If not A then not Y

Maybe you mean the colloquial reverse? But I’ve taken enough symbolic logic courses to know better than to fall into that mistake.

Apologies for derailing. I just don’t want my fellow message boarders to be misled.

Are you contrapositive?
What I said was right, but I think I failed to respond to the issue in your statement. If the premise is [if x isn’t available, y is ok] the reverse would be [IF y isn’t ok, then X is available].

The distinction is that you’re not making a judgement call as to whether Y is or is not ok. You’re simply saying that a necessary condition for Y being not ok is X being available.

And yet you still supported Joe Biden for President. It would be funny, if it weren't all. just. so. sad...

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14267 on: March 02, 2021, 06:20:46 PM »
I had a logic professor at Cats U named Serge.  Anyone have that cat?

I remember this guy. (That was pre-The Royal Tenenbaums, which is weird because that's now my first thought when I see the name.)

https://philosophy.utoronto.ca/directory/sergio-tenenbaum/

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14268 on: March 02, 2021, 08:00:05 PM »
The problem isn't where the Catholic dude ended up logically. A lot of people are going to read his statement and either wait until the vaccine that wasn't a product of abortion is available, or they will pass on it entirely. He should have said "get a vaccine as soon as you can," and left it at that.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14269 on: March 02, 2021, 08:08:03 PM »
The problem isn't where the Catholic dude ended up logically. A lot of people are going to read his statement and either wait until the vaccine that wasn't a product of abortion is available, or they will pass on it entirely. He should have said "get a vaccine as soon as you can," and left it at that.
Lol.  You people spend too much time with dax.


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14270 on: March 02, 2021, 08:27:27 PM »
Yeah, you're right. Religious nut jobs who care about this stuff will read that statement and then go ahead and get a vaccine made from aborted tissue. They are very rational people.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14271 on: March 02, 2021, 08:49:12 PM »
Dlew, do you think the diocese's guidance will have an impact on vaccination rates?

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14272 on: March 02, 2021, 08:59:35 PM »
Got two offers to get chipped today, couldn't bring myself to fib. 

One was from some pharmacy in Tulsa I had no idea I signed up.  She said she'd keep me on the list for the next phase!

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14273 on: March 02, 2021, 09:19:15 PM »
Dlew, do you think the diocese's guidance will have an impact on vaccination rates?
I don’t know, but I doubt it.


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14274 on: March 02, 2021, 09:21:32 PM »
Yeah, you're right. Religious nut jobs who care about this stuff will read that statement and then go ahead and get a vaccine made from aborted tissue. They are very rational people.
Who are these people you think are stupid? Catholics in the New Orleans archdiocese? 


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