Author Topic: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread  (Read 442653 times)

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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14525 on: March 02, 2021, 04:34:14 PM »
I had a logic professor at Cats U named Serge.  Anyone have that cat?

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14526 on: March 02, 2021, 04:37:00 PM »
Is dolly parton just the best or what?


Also the diocese should have kept its mouth shut

Offline Spracne

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14527 on: March 02, 2021, 04:38:57 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
:nono:

If A then Y =/= If not A then not Y

Maybe you mean the colloquial reverse? But I’ve taken enough symbolic logic courses to know better than to fall into that mistake.

Apologies for derailing. I just don’t want my fellow message boarders to be misled.

Are you contrapositive?

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14528 on: March 02, 2021, 04:49:19 PM »
Is dolly parton just the best or what?


Also the diocese should have kept its mouth shut

That's my point.  If you making the exception, why make an announcement?  How many of these folks knew anything about the fetusccine?

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14529 on: March 02, 2021, 04:50:27 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
:nono:

If A then Y =/= If not A then not Y

Maybe you mean the colloquial reverse? But I’ve taken enough symbolic logic courses to know better than to fall into that mistake.

Apologies for derailing. I just don’t want my fellow message boarders to be misled.

Are you contrapositive?
What I said was right, but I think I failed to respond to the issue in your statement. If the premise is [if x isn’t available, y is ok] the reverse would be [IF y isn’t ok, then X is available].

The distinction is that you’re not making a judgement call as to whether Y is or is not ok. You’re simply saying that a necessary condition for Y being not ok is X being available.

Offline Spracne

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14530 on: March 02, 2021, 04:54:22 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
:nono:

If A then Y =/= If not A then not Y

Maybe you mean the colloquial reverse? But I’ve taken enough symbolic logic courses to know better than to fall into that mistake.

Apologies for derailing. I just don’t want my fellow message boarders to be misled.

Are you contrapositive?
What I said was right, but I think I failed to respond to the issue in your statement. If the premise is [if x isn’t available, y is ok] the reverse would be [IF y isn’t ok, then X is available].

The distinction is that you’re not making a judgement call as to whether Y is or is not ok. You’re simply saying that a necessary condition for Y being not ok is X being available.

And yet you still supported Joe Biden for President. It would be funny, if it weren't all. just. so. sad...

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14531 on: March 02, 2021, 06:20:46 PM »
I had a logic professor at Cats U named Serge.  Anyone have that cat?

I remember this guy. (That was pre-The Royal Tenenbaums, which is weird because that's now my first thought when I see the name.)

https://philosophy.utoronto.ca/directory/sergio-tenenbaum/

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14532 on: March 02, 2021, 08:00:05 PM »
The problem isn't where the Catholic dude ended up logically. A lot of people are going to read his statement and either wait until the vaccine that wasn't a product of abortion is available, or they will pass on it entirely. He should have said "get a vaccine as soon as you can," and left it at that.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14533 on: March 02, 2021, 08:08:03 PM »
The problem isn't where the Catholic dude ended up logically. A lot of people are going to read his statement and either wait until the vaccine that wasn't a product of abortion is available, or they will pass on it entirely. He should have said "get a vaccine as soon as you can," and left it at that.
Lol.  You people spend too much time with dax.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14534 on: March 02, 2021, 08:27:27 PM »
Yeah, you're right. Religious nut jobs who care about this stuff will read that statement and then go ahead and get a vaccine made from aborted tissue. They are very rational people.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14535 on: March 02, 2021, 08:49:12 PM »
Dlew, do you think the diocese's guidance will have an impact on vaccination rates?

Offline Phil Titola

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14536 on: March 02, 2021, 08:59:35 PM »
Got two offers to get chipped today, couldn't bring myself to fib. 

One was from some pharmacy in Tulsa I had no idea I signed up.  She said she'd keep me on the list for the next phase!

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14537 on: March 02, 2021, 09:19:15 PM »
Dlew, do you think the diocese's guidance will have an impact on vaccination rates?
I don’t know, but I doubt it.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline DQ12

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14538 on: March 02, 2021, 09:21:32 PM »
Yeah, you're right. Religious nut jobs who care about this stuff will read that statement and then go ahead and get a vaccine made from aborted tissue. They are very rational people.
Who are these people you think are stupid? Catholics in the New Orleans archdiocese? 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14539 on: March 02, 2021, 09:24:46 PM »
Got two offers to get chipped today, couldn't bring myself to fib. 

One was from some pharmacy in Tulsa I had no idea I signed up.  She said she'd keep me on the list for the next phase!
Jesus you're desperate just get one already

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14540 on: March 02, 2021, 09:26:56 PM »
Fwiw, Phil - I know of at least one poster on this BBS has had luck calling regional (rural) hyvees and seeing if they have any excess shots.  Said poster was chipped the same day this week.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14541 on: March 02, 2021, 09:30:28 PM »


Dlew, do you think the diocese's guidance will have an impact on vaccination rates?
I don’t know, but I doubt it.

I mean surely you know it wouldn't increase vaccination rates

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14542 on: March 02, 2021, 09:38:48 PM »


Dlew, do you think the diocese's guidance will have an impact on vaccination rates?
I don’t know, but I doubt it.

I mean surely you know it wouldn't increase vaccination rates
Honestly, I don’t know the reach or influence of this bishop or his message, though it was certainly amplified by the media attention.

I feel like everyone is pretending he said something other than what he said.  So I’ll quote it again just as a reminder:

Quote
[W]e advise that if the Moderna or Pfizer vaccine is available, Catholics should choose to receive either of those vaccines rather than to receive the new Johnson & Johnson vaccine because of its extensive use of abortion-derived cell lines.

If someone was on the fence about chipping and read that message and their take away was “the bishop doesn’t want me to get vaccinated” I don’t know what to say.

If you want to get more heady/detailed about it, medical ethics is a pretty important topic among Catholic wonks and the vaccine is the issue de jour.  What I learned today from looking into all of this is that, depending on the circumstances (which are likely overwhelmingly frequent) it is morally permissible in the eyes of the Church to take “morally compromised” vaccines.  To the extent any hardcore Catholics were holding out because of the ethical issues, guidance issued by the Pope and by this bishop could give people clarity into how they can morally proceed - otherwise, people could very well listen to the most assured sounding person on their Catholic Facebook group who says “any use of a vaccine that involves aborted fetal tissue in any way is a mortal sin per [some esoteric Catholic authority].

But like I said, I doubt the statement at issue is going to tilt the scales very much one way or another.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 09:49:57 PM by DQ12 »


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14543 on: March 02, 2021, 09:41:07 PM »
The Catholic Church has been telling people to do dumb shlt for 2 thousand years and will continue to tell people to do dumb shlt for 2 thousands more.

NEXT


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14544 on: March 02, 2021, 09:48:54 PM »
Fwiw, Phil - I know of at least one poster on this BBS has had luck calling regional (rural) hyvees and seeing if they have any excess shots.  Said poster was chipped the same day this week.

Hmm, I haven't done that yet, did said poster call a certain time a day.  If they have ones they are throwing away I'll easily take one of those but I can't bring myself to cut in front of line no matter how much I want it.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14545 on: March 02, 2021, 09:50:35 PM »
Got two offers to get chipped today, couldn't bring myself to fib. 

One was from some pharmacy in Tulsa I had no idea I signed up.  She said she'd keep me on the list for the next phase!
Jesus you're desperate just get one already

Once we (MO) moves to the IT/Government people phase I'm stepping in.  I don't worry about stepping in front of those dorks teleworking on the daily.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14546 on: March 02, 2021, 09:52:04 PM »
Fwiw, Phil - I know of at least one poster on this BBS has had luck calling regional (rural) hyvees and seeing if they have any excess shots.  Said poster was chipped the same day this week.

Hmm, I haven't done that yet, did said poster call a certain time a day.  If they have ones they are throwing away I'll easily take one of those but I can't bring myself to cut in front of line no matter how much I want it.
Yeah I’m not sure.  I do know he drove an hour and a half outside the city.  But that’s about it.  If you called I’m sure you could ask and they’d tell you if it’s a “use it or lose it” sitch for them.


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14547 on: March 02, 2021, 09:52:15 PM »
FOLKS!




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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14548 on: March 02, 2021, 09:55:22 PM »
 :Woot:


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14549 on: March 02, 2021, 10:01:22 PM »
So early in the morning, but congrats tho
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite