Author Topic: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread  (Read 442721 times)

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Offline DQ12

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14500 on: March 02, 2021, 01:39:26 PM »
Alternatives aren't available. You get what they have.
Ok.  There's no prohibition on that.

He's signing a death sentence for some of his parishoners.  classy
like, what?


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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14501 on: March 02, 2021, 01:43:20 PM »
Alternatives aren't available. You get what they have.
Ok.  There's no prohibition on that.

He's signing a death sentence for some of his parishoners.  classy
like, what?

Telling them to not get a certain vaccination that would save their life. 

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14502 on: March 02, 2021, 01:49:38 PM »
Pandemic is over, guys.

?s=20

Offline DQ12

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14503 on: March 02, 2021, 01:50:24 PM »
Alternatives aren't available. You get what they have.
Ok.  There's no prohibition on that.

He's signing a death sentence for some of his parishoners.  classy
like, what?

Telling them to not get a certain vaccination that would save their life.
yeah i guess if that's what he said, but he didn't say that.  he said if something else is available, choose something else.


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Offline DaBigTrain

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14504 on: March 02, 2021, 01:59:24 PM »
Pandemic is over, guys.

?s=20
Congrats everyone, we did it.
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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14505 on: March 02, 2021, 02:06:08 PM »
Alternatives aren't available. You get what they have.
Ok.  There's no prohibition on that.

He's signing a death sentence for some of his parishoners.  classy
like, what?

Telling them to not get a certain vaccination that would save their life.
yeah i guess if that's what he said, but he didn't say that.  he said if something else is available, choose something else.

I’m sure that there will be some who refuse the J&J outright even if it’s only option.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14506 on: March 02, 2021, 02:06:23 PM »
 :party:

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Offline DQ12

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14507 on: March 02, 2021, 02:08:28 PM »
Alternatives aren't available. You get what they have.
Ok.  There's no prohibition on that.

He's signing a death sentence for some of his parishoners.  classy
like, what?

Telling them to not get a certain vaccination that would save their life.
yeah i guess if that's what he said, but he didn't say that.  he said if something else is available, choose something else.

I’m sure that there will be some who refuse the J&J outright even if it’s only option.
ok...that's their prerogative, but it's not what the archdiocese told them to do.


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14508 on: March 02, 2021, 02:15:36 PM »
Maybe don’t give those kinds or orders period.

Offline DQ12

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14509 on: March 02, 2021, 02:19:12 PM »
Maybe don’t give those kinds or orders period.
I'm having a hard time understanding your position on this.  The information is relevant to Catholics and the actual charge isn't complex, controversial or dangerous.



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Offline catastrophe

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14510 on: March 02, 2021, 02:50:29 PM »
Maybe don’t give those kinds or orders period.
I'm having a hard time understanding your position on this.  The information is relevant to Catholics and the actual charge isn't complex, controversial or dangerous.
The real problem is that the Archdiocese is breaking with Vatican guidelines on this stance (which said even vaccines using fetal material are ok).

It’s an anti-vax stance, not a religious one.

Offline DQ12

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14511 on: March 02, 2021, 02:58:36 PM »
Maybe don’t give those kinds or orders period.
I'm having a hard time understanding your position on this.  The information is relevant to Catholics and the actual charge isn't complex, controversial or dangerous.
The real problem is that the Archdiocese is breaking with Vatican guidelines on this stance (which said even vaccines using fetal material are ok).

It’s an anti-vax stance, not a religious one.
"If given the option, choose vaccine a over vaccine b" is not an "anti-vax" stance.  It's a conditionally "anti vaccine b" stance.

Regardless, here is what the vatican said:

Quote
1. As the Instruction Dignitas Personae states, in cases where cells from aborted fetuses are employed to create cell lines for use in scientific research, “there exist differing degrees of responsibility”[1] of cooperation in evil. For example,“in organizations where cell lines of illicit origin are being utilized, the responsibility of those who make the decision to use them is not the same as that of those who have no voice in such a decision”.[2]

2. In this sense, when ethically irreproachable Covid-19 vaccines are not available (e.g. in countries where vaccines without ethical problems are not made available to physicians and patients, or where their distribution is more difficult due to special storage and transport conditions, or when various types of vaccines are distributed in the same country but health authorities do not allow citizens to choose the vaccine with which to be inoculated) it is morally acceptable to receive Covid-19 vaccines that have used cell lines from aborted fetuses in their research and production process.
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20201221_nota-vaccini-anticovid_en.html

Where exactly does the archdiocese's statement differ from the Vatican's?

I will say, your confusion is understandable, given the WaPo article, which stated:

Quote
The decision could put the archdiocese in conflict with the Vatican and Pope Francis, who have been aggressively pro-vaccine. Last December, the Vatican approved the use of vaccines “that have used cell lines from aborted fetuses in their research and production process,” adding it’s “morally acceptable,” although the pope has yet to specifically address the Johnson & Johnson shot.

I mean, omitting the conditional nature of the Vatican's statement is ridiculously misleading. Omitting that language while maintaining the Archdiocese's statement is "in conflict" with the Vatican is close to a straight up lie.   
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 03:14:57 PM by DQ12 »


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14512 on: March 02, 2021, 03:17:11 PM »
I didn't know the pope took the fetus vaccine.  That is wild

Offline catastrophe

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CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14513 on: March 02, 2021, 03:26:08 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14514 on: March 02, 2021, 03:28:28 PM »
Shout to abortion for whatever role it's had in getting us past the pandemic.

Offline catastrophe

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CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14515 on: March 02, 2021, 03:29:53 PM »
All that said I won’t argue that the WaPo headline is sensationalizing a story that hinges on a pretty fine distinction.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14516 on: March 02, 2021, 03:37:33 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 

Again - here's the statement: "When ethically irreproachable Covid-19 vaccines are not available [...] it is morally acceptable to receive Covid-19 vaccines that have used cell lines from aborted fetuses..."

W/r/t the purpose - The archdiocese is specifically referencing the JNJ vaccine, which uses fetal tissue in manufacturing, and comparing it to moderna/pfizer, which used fetal tissue in testing.  On my reading, the Vatican statement I posted didn't distinguish between the use in testing/manufacturing -- hence the value of the Archdiocese's statement (which is effectively "if faced with the decision, use in testing isn't as bad as use in manufacturing").

You can call the whole thing stupid and irrelevant if you want, and that's fine with me if you see it that way.  But the archdiocese's charge doesn't contradict anything the Vatican says. And neither the archdiocese, nor the Vatican are telling people that they can't get the JNJ vaccine.  They are each saying that if less morally contentious solutions are available, opt for those instead.  Which, as a general proposition, is about as close to a categorical imperative as there is.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 03:41:09 PM by DQ12 »


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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14517 on: March 02, 2021, 03:41:00 PM »
Which vaccination center offers a menu?

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14518 on: March 02, 2021, 03:43:49 PM »
Saying circumstance A is morally permissible does not mean all other options are morally impermissible. Looking at the two statements side by side, I agree the Archdiocese is probably not trying to undermine anything the Vatican has said, but it’s a bit reckless of them not to CLEARLY state that there are no issues with taking J&J if it is the one offered to you.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14519 on: March 02, 2021, 03:44:49 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14520 on: March 02, 2021, 03:51:06 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
truuuuu

I get that the moral philosophy of the vaccines can be kind of heady stuff for people and sound ridiculous if you're not Catholic (or not a very dogmatic Catholic).  I also get that sometimes, Catholic doctrine comes in pretty serious conflict with fairly well-accepted societal norms, but the attention the archdiocese got for this fairly mild statement is surprising.


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Offline 8manpick

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14521 on: March 02, 2021, 04:04:22 PM »
Thank you to the aborters and to Joe Biden for guiding us out of this pandemic, we are truly blessed!
:adios:

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14522 on: March 02, 2021, 04:19:20 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
truuuuu

I get that the moral philosophy of the vaccines can be kind of heady stuff for people and sound ridiculous if you're not Catholic (or not a very dogmatic Catholic).  I also get that sometimes, Catholic doctrine comes in pretty serious conflict with fairly well-accepted societal norms, but the attention the archdiocese got for this fairly mild statement is surprising.

If you are going to say that you aren't going to hell for taking the J&J why say this at all?  I do not know a single spot that gives you a chip choice

Offline MadCat

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14523 on: March 02, 2021, 04:23:14 PM »
Gives new meaning to "pro-choice"

Offline catastrophe

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Re: CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread
« Reply #14524 on: March 02, 2021, 04:28:10 PM »
I’d grant the Vatican’s statement is a little open ended, but I certainly wouldn’t call it conditional. Unlike the Archdiocese, the Vatican does not say it is problematic to accept a vaccine using fetal material if an alternative is “available” (whatever that means). The #1 point you pasted says the moral culpability is not at all the same for someone who has no say in what goes into the thing.

If the stances are really the same, you have to ask why the Archdiocese did not reference the Vatican’s views or simply defer to them generally. Especially why they would make the statement at a time when literally the only vaccine “choice” to be made almost anywhere is accepting or rejecting the one you are offered when you are offered it.

The messaging at best is sloppy, but more than anything seems aimed at discouraging folks from getting the J&J vaccine at a time when that means not getting vaccinated at all for a lot of people.
It is absolutely 100% conditional.  "When x isn't available, y is OK" is conditional permissibility.  Stated in the logical reverse: "y is ok if x isn't available." 



Just to be clear, the logical "reverse" is "Y is not OK when X is available." This concludes my formal logic lesson for the afternoon of March 2 in the year of our Lord 2021.
:nono:

If A then Y =/= If not A then not Y

Maybe you mean the colloquial reverse? But I’ve taken enough symbolic logic courses to know better than to fall into that mistake.

Apologies for derailing. I just don’t want my fellow message boarders to be misled.