Author Topic: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down  (Read 4548 times)

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kso_FAN

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2018, 10:09:10 AM »
lmao rake


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rake is certainly passionate and does his research.

im actually not even a k-state fan. just a psychopath.  :frown:

I know, that's what makes all this even better. I mean, you even have a sub at KSO.  :)

j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2018, 10:17:15 AM »
So what you're saying is LittreLL=Harbaugh

:love:

Hahaha, YES!  :D

let's do a quick comparison!

harbaugh took FCS san diego to back-to-back 11 win seasons before leading stanford to the orange bowl, then took the 49ers to within a play of winning the super bowl, and now has michigan close to a return to prominence.

seth LittreLL "turned around" north texas, but before that he was the co-offensive coordinator for a bad arizona team, the offensive coordinator (in name only, everyone knows kevin wilson called the plays) for a bad indiana team, and he served as a GA or positional coach at three other schools - KU, Texas Tech and North Carolina.

interestingly, all three of those schools had openings this offseason.

all three hired someone else.

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2018, 10:19:41 AM »
this rake clown is doing a pretty good job of making me not excited about this hire

Chingon

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2018, 10:23:47 AM »
I am too lazy at this point in time to do the research, but how many elite-level athletes did Seth coach up during his stints at UNC, Indiana, and Zona?  Any pros we can point to that he had a hand in making?

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2018, 10:27:36 AM »
I am too lazy at this point in time to do the research, but how many elite-level athletes did Seth coach up during his stints at UNC, Indiana, and Zona?  Any pros we can point to that he had a hand in making?
also v. lazy so won't look up but Mitchell Trubisky  :dunno:
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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #80 on: December 06, 2018, 10:28:16 AM »
I am too lazy at this point in time to do the research, but how many elite-level athletes did Seth coach up during his stints at UNC, Indiana, and Zona?  Any pros we can point to that he had a hand in making?

GRONK and Foles.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/sports/UNTs-LittreLL-Dishes-on-Bowl-Game-and-His-Time-With-Gronk-414896683.html

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #81 on: December 06, 2018, 10:30:31 AM »
Well there's a positive!

wetwillie

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #82 on: December 06, 2018, 10:32:27 AM »
So our guy has coached two elite NFL qb’s....
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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #83 on: December 06, 2018, 10:36:20 AM »
Well there's a positive!

matt schaub. heath miller. d'brickashaw ferguson. elton brown. josh freeman. jordy nelson. 7-6. 5-7. 5-7. virginia. colts. jags. rutgers. lions. michigan.

Chingon

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #84 on: December 06, 2018, 10:37:09 AM »


Well there's a positive!

matt schaub. heath miller. d'brickashaw ferguson. elton brown. josh freeman. jordy nelson. 7-6. 5-7. 5-7. virginia. colts. jags. rutgers. lions. michigan.

That's not as positive...

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #85 on: December 06, 2018, 10:38:07 AM »
So our guy has coached two elite NFL qb’s....

phil jackson coached michael jordan, kobe and shaq!

kso_FAN

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #86 on: December 06, 2018, 10:39:50 AM »
Not liking the hire and giving good evidence. Fair enough

Remotely equating with Prince. LOL

Pretty good BBSing though.

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #87 on: December 06, 2018, 10:42:35 AM »
Not liking the hire and giving good evidence. Fair enough

Remotely equating with Prince. LOL

Pretty good BBSing though.

just saying, if you spend 10+ years as a positional coach or coordinator at four different schools in power conferences, there's a pretty good chance you're going to stumble into a good player or two that you can take credit for.

kso_FAN

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #88 on: December 06, 2018, 10:45:13 AM »
Not liking the hire and giving good evidence. Fair enough

Remotely equating with Prince. LOL

Pretty good BBSing though.

just saying, if you spend 10+ years as a positional coach or coordinator at four different schools in power conferences, there's a pretty good chance you're going to stumble into a good player or two that you can take credit for.

Definitely.

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #89 on: December 06, 2018, 10:50:13 AM »
Not liking the hire and giving good evidence. Fair enough

Remotely equating with Prince. LOL

Pretty good BBSing though.

just saying, if you spend 10+ years as a positional coach or coordinator at four different schools in power conferences, there's a pretty good chance you're going to stumble into a good player or two that you can take credit for.

Definitely.
Not at KSU the last five years. :frown:

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #90 on: December 06, 2018, 10:53:31 AM »
Who are your top 3 picks,after Clark obvi,  jrake? Sorry if you've already stated it somewhere
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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #91 on: December 06, 2018, 11:35:50 AM »
Who are your top 3 picks,after Clark obvi,  jrake? Sorry if you've already stated it somewhere

let's do this in reverse. how did seth LittreLL get on gene taylor's radar? if i had to guess, it's the same way that every coach gets on every AD's radar: by "turning around" a bad program at a lesser school. this is how every fan base and i suspect most AD's begin their coaching search. and short-term win-loss record, i promise you, is the absolute worst way to evaluate a coach.

again, seth LittreLL has had a nice record at UNT. good for him. but he entered the CUSA when there were six and possibly seven other schools in a 13-team league that were total trainwrecks. if you play five or six games against awful teams - on top of a couple cupcake or fcs schools in the non-con - odds are good that you'll have a pretty decent record at least occasionally.

last year, it was lane kiffin's turn.

the year before, it was jeff brohm and bobby wilder's turn.

the year before, it was doc holliday's turn.

this year, it was bill clark's turn. 

next year, it will be someone else's turn.

all you must do is play a bunch of bad to mediocre teams in coin-flip games, win some home games against truly inferior teams, have a few breaks go your way, throw in some variance (it's a 12-game schedule for crying out loud) and boom, you're turned around a program. it's not that hard. and it's a total freeroll. when you take over a winless or 1-win team, it's not like you can do worse. and usually a new coach will require a larger commitment to the program than the old coach got before taking the job. so you often have low expectations that can only be exceeded; a larger level of support from the administration (otherwise you wouldn't take the job); and you get breathing room from patient fans who know it'll be a process.

i consider seth LittreLL's time at UNT to be a proverbial 'discovery stint.' turner gill's was at buffalo. then KU hired him and he failed. al golden's was at temple. then miami hired him and he failed. darrel hazell's was at kent state. then purdue hired him and he failed. jim mcelwain's was at colorado st. then florida hired him and he failed. and the list goes on.

the coaches who seem to succeed after taking the 'next step' are those who have proven themselves for a prolonged period of time at one school, or at multiple lower-tier schools. chris petersen was at boise state for 10+ years before taking the washington job. dino babers led eastern illinois to the FCS playoffs and then took bowling green to 10 wins before turning around syracuse. brian kelly won national titles at grand valley state, then turned around central michigan, then took Cincy to back-to-back BCS bowls and then got the Notre Dame job. i could go on and on with the successes and failures.

i don't have the necessary info to actually know who would be a good or bad hire. obviously if i was an AD, i would be leveraging my contacts - coaches, fellow ADs, etc - and trying to find out which coaches are rough ridin' geniuses; which coaches are turning in poor records but would actually perform much better if they had easier schedules, more support, better assistants, etc. nobody wanted david cutcliffe when he was 21-40 through five years. oh wait, that's not true. duke wanted him! they kept him. why? because they had the capacity to look beyond record and realize that this guy was super competent and knew how to build a program.

i guarantee you there are a dozen david cutcliffe's wallowing around CFB right now; coaches who would look a lot smarter in a more favorable situation. chris creighton at EMU might be one of them. but he'll never get a look. AD's fixate on "turnarounds" and highly deceptive win-loss records and performance across a small sample of games (often between 25-50 games), then go from there. and then, as has been the case roughly 50 times in the last three years, they're on the market looking for a new coach because the previous one failed.

if you made it this far, i would double dino babers' salary and bring him to k-state. he's the second-lowest paid coach in the ACC, he's won at three different places, he's coached in the big 12, he's energetic, has a great system, and is the right caliber of candidate for this job.

seth LittreLL would be a nice hire for tulsa.

michigancat

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2018, 12:28:16 PM »
i consider seth LittreLL's time at UNT to be a proverbial 'discovery stint.' turner gill's was at buffalo. then KU hired him and he failed. al golden's was at temple. then miami hired him and he failed. darrel hazell's was at kent state. then purdue hired him and he failed. jim mcelwain's was at colorado st. then florida hired him and he failed. and the list goes on.

none of those coaches had consecutive 9 win seasons. Gill didn't even have 1.


Quote
dino babers led eastern illinois to the FCS playoffs and then took bowling green to 10 wins before turning around syracuse. brian kelly won national titles at grand valley state, then turned around central michigan, then took Cincy to back-to-back BCS bowls and then got the Notre Dame job.

I think Babers would be awesome (but unrealistic) and would definitely prefer him over LittreLL. However, he was at BGSU for two years, took over a 10 win team, and won 8 and 10 games. I don't see that as significantly more or less impressive than what LittreLL did at UNT.

Kelly went 4-7, 6-5, 9-4 at CMU. I don't think that's significantly different than what LittreLL did at UNT. (What he did at Cincy did in the Big East Cincy is certainly more impressive - we would be LittreLL's Cincy TBH)


If I were the AD at KSU I would just hire the best recruiter available (that has recruited Texas heavily) with the best overall recruiting strategy (staff, geography, connections, etc.) that the fan base would accept. IMO that is BV. LittreLL would probably be high on that list though.

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2018, 12:39:33 PM »
man, rake is cleaning up in here.  i've been all in on SL but rake with the homework.  now i don't what to believe.

nicname

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2018, 12:45:24 PM »
Who are your top 3 picks,after Clark obvi,  jrake? Sorry if you've already stated it somewhere

let's do this in reverse. how did seth LittreLL get on gene taylor's radar? if i had to guess, it's the same way that every coach gets on every AD's radar: by "turning around" a bad program at a lesser school. this is how every fan base and i suspect most AD's begin their coaching search. and short-term win-loss record, i promise you, is the absolute worst way to evaluate a coach.

again, seth LittreLL has had a nice record at UNT. good for him. but he entered the CUSA when there were six and possibly seven other schools in a 13-team league that were total trainwrecks. if you play five or six games against awful teams - on top of a couple cupcake or fcs schools in the non-con - odds are good that you'll have a pretty decent record at least occasionally.

last year, it was lane kiffin's turn.

the year before, it was jeff brohm and bobby wilder's turn.

the year before, it was doc holliday's turn.

this year, it was bill clark's turn. 

next year, it will be someone else's turn.

all you must do is play a bunch of bad to mediocre teams in coin-flip games, win some home games against truly inferior teams, have a few breaks go your way, throw in some variance (it's a 12-game schedule for crying out loud) and boom, you're turned around a program. it's not that hard. and it's a total freeroll. when you take over a winless or 1-win team, it's not like you can do worse. and usually a new coach will require a larger commitment to the program than the old coach got before taking the job. so you often have low expectations that can only be exceeded; a larger level of support from the administration (otherwise you wouldn't take the job); and you get breathing room from patient fans who know it'll be a process.

i consider seth LittreLL's time at UNT to be a proverbial 'discovery stint.' turner gill's was at buffalo. then KU hired him and he failed. al golden's was at temple. then miami hired him and he failed. darrel hazell's was at kent state. then purdue hired him and he failed. jim mcelwain's was at colorado st. then florida hired him and he failed. and the list goes on.

the coaches who seem to succeed after taking the 'next step' are those who have proven themselves for a prolonged period of time at one school, or at multiple lower-tier schools. chris petersen was at boise state for 10+ years before taking the washington job. dino babers led eastern illinois to the FCS playoffs and then took bowling green to 10 wins before turning around syracuse. brian kelly won national titles at grand valley state, then turned around central michigan, then took Cincy to back-to-back BCS bowls and then got the Notre Dame job. i could go on and on with the successes and failures.

i don't have the necessary info to actually know who would be a good or bad hire. obviously if i was an AD, i would be leveraging my contacts - coaches, fellow ADs, etc - and trying to find out which coaches are rough ridin' geniuses; which coaches are turning in poor records but would actually perform much better if they had easier schedules, more support, better assistants, etc. nobody wanted david cutcliffe when he was 21-40 through five years. oh wait, that's not true. duke wanted him! they kept him. why? because they had the capacity to look beyond record and realize that this guy was super competent and knew how to build a program.

i guarantee you there are a dozen david cutcliffe's wallowing around CFB right now; coaches who would look a lot smarter in a more favorable situation. chris creighton at EMU might be one of them. but he'll never get a look. AD's fixate on "turnarounds" and highly deceptive win-loss records and performance across a small sample of games (often between 25-50 games), then go from there. and then, as has been the case roughly 50 times in the last three years, they're on the market looking for a new coach because the previous one failed.

if you made it this far, i would double dino babers' salary and bring him to k-state. he's the second-lowest paid coach in the ACC, he's won at three different places, he's coached in the big 12, he's energetic, has a great system, and is the right caliber of candidate for this job.

seth LittreLL would be a nice hire for tulsa.

Great argument jrake. And boy would I like to get our hands on Babers.

I mean, a guy like this on top of the success! And their offense is exciting as hell.







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wetwillie

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2018, 12:48:25 PM »
Rusty is right we need the best recruiter.  We offered the best one 25 million and he said no.
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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2018, 12:54:54 PM »
Rusty is right we need the best recruiter.  We offered the best one 25 million and he said no.

But did he or was he offered.  Seems like a few years back, we all knew Patterson was offered when in reality he wasn't.
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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2018, 12:55:35 PM »

Quote
dino babers led eastern illinois to the FCS playoffs and then took bowling green to 10 wins before turning around syracuse. brian kelly won national titles at grand valley state, then turned around central michigan, then took Cincy to back-to-back BCS bowls and then got the Notre Dame job.

I think Babers would be awesome (but unrealistic) and would definitely prefer him over LittreLL. However, he was at BGSU for two years, took over a 10 win team, and won 8 and 10 games. I don't see that as significantly more or less impressive than what LittreLL did at UNT.

Kelly went 4-7, 6-5, 9-4 at CMU. I don't think that's significantly different than what LittreLL did at UNT. (What he did at Cincy did in the Big East Cincy is certainly more impressive - we would be LittreLL's Cincy TBH)


I think jrake's point -- and it's a great one -- is that a quick turnaround at a smaller, losing school is only part of the equation. It asks the question of KState as to it thinks it really is. How many boxes does the next head coach have to check before he is worthy of KState's time and money?

It is concerning that LittreLL has floundered a bit in the second half of this season. Could some of that be attributed to the distraction of looking at other jobs (KState)? Perhaps some, but LittreLL does check some of the other boxes imo: recruiting, Texas/OK ties, worked at P5 schools, good player pedigree at OU under Stoops.

The upside for LittreLL seems to be there. It seems jrake believes the risk/reward probably isn't the correct ratio, but understands that KState, at this point may, have to take it.

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2018, 12:59:50 PM »
Rusty is right we need the best recruiter.  We offered the best one 25 million and he said no.

Yep. Which is why LittreLL, though a bit of a gamble, may be our best bet.
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j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2018, 01:07:20 PM »
Kelly went 4-7, 6-5, 9-4 at CMU. I don't think that's significantly different than what LittreLL did at UNT. (What he did at Cincy did in the Big East Cincy is certainly more impressive - we would be LittreLL's Cincy TBH)

three of Kelly's four losses were to #20 boston college, #10 michigan and a kentucky team that went 8-5 (with losses mainly to ranked SEC teams).

LittreLL lost to la tech (at home), to ODU (as a 14-pt favorite), and to UAB (a school that was extinct two years ago). he also barely eeked past UTEP and UTSA, literal doormats.

let's not compare brian kelly, a two-time national champion (at D-2) who has won 230 games at four different schools - including two undefeated seasons, four BCS bowl games, a CFB playoff appearance, and a national title game appearance - with the north texas coach whose best win is against army and who has done nothing more than beat bethune, lamar, incarnate word, rice, UTSA and UTEP (barely!) in three years.

but congrats to him on his three-way tie for second in the always difficult CUSA West division!