i can't believe the enthusiasm for this guy. he "turns around" north texas by beating a bunch of bad teams, he runs an offense that is a lesser version of the ones already ran by better big 12 teams (aka every other team), he got outcoached often by first-year CUSA coaches, his team underachieved expectations - sometimes massively - in almost every game it played in october and november down the stretch, and suddenly gene and k-state are tripping all over themselves to hire him?
bill clark, an actual good coach, destroyed LittreLL's UNT team with a program that literally didn't exist when LittreLL began his rebuild.
ya gotta feel for LHC LHC Bill Snyder. he spent most of the last three decades to build up this program, and now ya'll are just gonna turn it over to the north texas coach who can barely beat UTEP and UTSA. pretty sad to watch this happen.
i liked the kansas hire way better. sometimes Les really is more.
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
But have you seen him though?
i can't believe the enthusiasm for this guy. he "turns around" north texas by beating a bunch of bad teams, he runs an offense that is a lesser version of the ones already ran by better big 12 teams (aka every other team), he got outcoached often by first-year CUSA coaches, his team underachieved expectations - sometimes massively - in almost every game it played in october and november down the stretch, and suddenly gene and k-state are tripping all over themselves to hire him?
bill clark, an actual good coach, destroyed LittreLL's UNT team with a program that literally didn't exist when LittreLL began his rebuild.
ya gotta feel for LHC LHC Bill Snyder. he spent most of the last three decades to build up this program, and now ya'll are just gonna turn it over to the north texas coach who can barely beat UTEP and UTSA. pretty sad to watch this happen.
i liked the kansas hire way better. sometimes Les really is more.
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Cute. "Les is more." Very cute. Yep, that's a good hire for a crap program that needs to simply build enthusiasm and lay some foundation for a coaching hire in 2-3 years.
But even IF your comments about LittreLL weren't simplistic and demonstrating a shallow evaluation of him as a candidate.....we've got an opening NOW. Not next year. Who do you think is a realistic and positive hire that's better? Easy to cast stones. Give us a name you think is an option.
i can't believe the enthusiasm for this guy. he "turns around" north texas by beating a bunch of bad teams, he runs an offense that is a lesser version of the ones already ran by better big 12 teams (aka every other team), he got outcoached often by first-year CUSA coaches, his team underachieved expectations - sometimes massively - in almost every game it played in october and november down the stretch, and suddenly gene and k-state are tripping all over themselves to hire him?
bill clark, an actual good coach, destroyed LittreLL's UNT team with a program that literally didn't exist when LittreLL began his rebuild.
ya gotta feel for LHC LHC LHC LHC Bill Snyder. he spent most of the last three decades to build up this program, and now ya'll are just gonna turn it over to the north texas coach who can barely beat UTEP and UTSA. pretty sad to watch this happen.
i liked the kansas hire way better. sometimes Les really is more.
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Cute. "Les is more." Very cute. Yep, that's a good hire for a crap program that needs to simply build enthusiasm and lay some foundation for a coaching hire in 2-3 years.
But even IF your comments about LittreLL weren't simplistic and demonstrating a shallow evaluation of him as a candidate.....we've got an opening NOW. Not next year. Who do you think is a realistic and positive hire that's better? Easy to cast stones. Give us a name you think is an option.
what is simplistic about them?
It takes into NO account the total shitshow of a roster he took over, and how he developed it. It speaks zero to the big upsides to him: recruitment, player development, and offensive improvements at each stop in his coaching career. It's ONLY focused on results--which mind you, ARE important. Within context.
If your standard is "proven P5 HC results," which is what your post implies, then there's almost no names that are possible hires--and Snyder wasn't an option for you either. The ONLY possible name that fits that standard is Mike Leach. And the only way he's coming here is if we rigged the opportunity to play Texas Tech 5 times a year, and him give each player a shiv in those games.
NDSU program > north texas 9 times outta 10
but people would take this clown over Klieman at NDSU?
Carson Wentz > ______?? do they have a nfl player even?
It takes into NO account the total shitshow of a roster he took over, and how he developed it. It speaks zero to the big upsides to him: recruitment, player development, and offensive improvements at each stop in his coaching career. It's ONLY focused on results--which mind you, ARE important. Within context.
If your standard is "proven P5 HC results," which is what your post implies, then there's almost no names that are possible hires--and Snyder wasn't an option for you either. The ONLY possible name that fits that standard is Mike Leach. And the only way he's coming here is if we rigged the opportunity to play Texas Tech 5 times a year, and him give each player a shiv in those games.
dan mccarney took over a 'shitshow of a roster' at UNT and developed it into a 9-win team by year 3 that rated better than LittreLL's. improved recruiting is good but k-state will still take the field with an inferior roster in half of its league games each year.
LittreLL supposedly had one of the league's best rosters this year and kept turning in underwhelming outings against lesser teams. twice he was a 25-pt favorite and won by just a field goal. twice he lost as big favorites. he was -14 vs ODU and lost. he was -7 vs La Tech and lost.
enthusiasm for LittreLL being hired is enthusiasm for 8th place in the big 12 every year.
btw pete carroll would be my top target, followed by dick vermeil. if both of them say no i would try to pry herm edwards away from arizona state.
btw pete carroll would be my top target, followed by dick vermeil. if both of them say no i would try to pry herm edwards away from arizona state.
:bang:
You're effing stoned.
btw pete carroll would be my top target, followed by dick vermeil. if both of them say no i would try to pry herm edwards away from arizona state.
btw pete carroll would be my top target, followed by dick vermeil. if both of them say no i would try to pry herm edwards away from arizona state.
:bang:
You're effing stoned.
what do you have against pete carroll? i'd love to know.
i'm curious, what other schools are rumored to be targeting LittreLL?
i'm curious, what other schools are rumored to be targeting LittreLL?
i'm curious, what other schools are rumored to be targeting LittreLL?
Our biggest threat is OU if LR jumps to Cleveland. And he turned down a discussion with Kansas and Tech.
btw pete carroll would be my top target, followed by dick vermeil. if both of them say no i would try to pry herm edwards away from arizona state.
I think if we can gather the right material we can perform a Wicca ceremony to resurrect Vince Lombardi... he's my #1 candidate
But have you seen him though?
yeah, he looks like a physically fit rob cassidy.
It takes into NO account the total shitshow of a roster he took over, and how he developed it. It speaks zero to the big upsides to him: recruitment, player development, and offensive improvements at each stop in his coaching career. It's ONLY focused on results--which mind you, ARE important. Within context.
If your standard is "proven P5 HC results," which is what your post implies, then there's almost no names that are possible hires--and Snyder wasn't an option for you either. The ONLY possible name that fits that standard is Mike Leach. And the only way he's coming here is if we rigged the opportunity to play Texas Tech 5 times a year, and him give each player a shiv in those games.
dan mccarney took over a 'shitshow of a roster' at UNT and developed it into a 9-win team by year 3 that rated better than LittreLL's. improved recruiting is good but k-state will still take the field with an inferior roster in half of its league games each year.
LittreLL supposedly had one of the league's best rosters this year and kept turning in underwhelming outings against lesser teams. twice he was a 25-pt favorite and won by just a field goal. twice he lost as big favorites. he was -14 vs ODU and lost. he was -7 vs La Tech and lost.
enthusiasm for LittreLL being hired is enthusiasm for 8th place in the big 12 every year.
Jrake have you placed bets on games he coached at NT?
WE KNOW WHAT YOU’RE UP TO J RAKE YOU SON OF A BITCH!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
WE KNOW WHAT YOU’RE UP TO J RAKE YOU SON OF A BITCH!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He's good.
WE KNOW WHAT YOU’RE UP TO J RAKE YOU SON OF A BITCH!
J Rake, his North Texas teams had 12 uniform combinations last year. Does that even mean anything to you?
But have you seen him though?
yeah, he looks like a physically fit rob cassidy.
rob if you made roid face gains I can certainly see where rake is coming from here though
rob if you made roid face gains I can certainly see where rake is coming from here though
Living in Miami shamed me into dropping a bunch of weight. I was literally the fattest person here.
Hey fuckhead
WE KNOW WHAT YOU’RE UP TO J RAKE YOU SON OF A BITCH!
i trial ballooned a non opinion at a pay site a few days ago, and i've now decided to come here with my real opinion, which just so happens to be the correct opinion. interestingly, i just now received a text from someone who is very football savvy (not merrill hoge) who says i nailed it. "could not agree with you more."
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.tinypic.com%2F2n9vukj.jpg&hash=cf805c4b9ec2ebb96398b8de3b830892d4c0c67d)
wtf is the matter with you and your unread text messages :sdeek:
wtf is the matter with you and your unread text messages :sdeek:
He played the easiest schedule in all of FBS and still lost three games...smdh.
He played the easiest schedule in all of FBS and still lost three games...smdh.
'LittreLLY SICK
TO MY STOMACH'(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.tinypic.com%2F2e246z4.png&hash=a6eb935192a20a6f77e793b1cb5659336591359e)Proud donor disgusted by reports that K-State hopes
to hire loser North Texas coach that can't even beat ODU
But Bill Clark looks like a ginormous dork.
Good point J rake, At first I didn't think KSU and Mean Gene were doing their best effort. But then I heard about his big arms and good looks. Also, the fact that he is young and is not part of the Snyder tree seemed appealing. Now with your naming of the wonderful winning games he played this season, made me a believer and a fan of this man. :love:He played the easiest schedule in all of FBS and still lost three games...smdh.
yeah, but he's beaten lamar, bethune cookman, incarnate word, utsa, utep, liberty and rice (three times!), let's back up the brinks truck and give him whatever he wants!
even kansas considered him! and texas tech reportedly! the other half dozen big schools with openings didn't bother to give him a call, but so what. maybe they weren't aware that he finished in an impressive three-way tie for 2nd place in the CUSA West division behind a team that didn't even exist two years ago.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi64.tinypic.com%2F206h9io.jpg&hash=c6ab4dda6e427b2744229113a58d0a09b223915f)
Can you get some more info from Jerry?
And 666 unread... :surprised:
:D'LittreLLY SICK
TO MY STOMACH'(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi63.tinypic.com%2F2e246z4.png&hash=a6eb935192a20a6f77e793b1cb5659336591359e)Proud donor disgusted by reports that K-State hopes
to hire loser North Texas coach that can't even beat ODU
lmao rake
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lmao rake
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
rake is certainly passionate and does his research.
lmao rake
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
rake is certainly passionate and does his research.
So what you're saying is LittreLL=HarbaughCan you get some more info from Jerry?
And 666 unread... :surprised:
good morning. i'll give you more from me!
in the last 15 years, there have been 75 winless or 1-win seasons by 45 different FBS teams. in other words, 1/3rd of the country has had at least one titantic disaster of a season - similar to the one dan mccarney had prior to seth LittreLL taking over.
however, only 25 times has a newly hired coach gotten a chance to take over a winless or 1-win program. that includes three coaches who took new jobs this year - Mike Bloomgren at Rice, Dana Dimel at UTEP and Jonathan Smith at Oregon State.
so we're essentially working with a sample of 22 coaches who inherited situations similar to seth LittreLL at UNT in the last 15 years.
10 such coaches failed or kinda failed. this has happened multiple times at the same schools, who simply cannot get out of their own way and commit absolutely nothing to football - schools like New Mexico St, Idaho, Umass.
but there been several LittreLL-like turnarounds.
in 2005, bill cubit took over 1-win Western Michigan, and by year two, won 8 games and a trip to the International Bowl.
in 2006, turner gill took over 1-win buffalo, and by year three, won 8 games and the MAC championship.
in 2006, todd graham took over 1-win Rice, and won 7 games in his first year including a trip to the New Orleans Bowl.
in 2007, jim harbaugh took over 1-win Stanford, and won 8 games in his third year, including a trip to the Sun Bowl. (He went 12-1 in his fourth.)
in 2008, june jones took over 1-win SMU, and by year two, won 8 games including the Hawaii Bowl. (In 1999, jones took over winless hawaii and got them to 9 wins his first year.)
in 2009, steve sarkisian took over winless Washington, and by year two, won 7 games including a victory in the Holiday Bowl.
in 2010, willie taggart took over winless WKU, and won 7 games in his second year.
in 2013, todd monken took over winless Southern Miss, and by year three, won 9 games and a trip to the Heart of Dallas Bowl.
in 2013, trent miles started a program, won one game his first two years, and then won 6 and a bowl trip his third.
in 2015, chad morris took over 1-win SMU, and won 7 games in his third year, including a trip to the Frisco Bowl.
In 2016, scott frost took over winless UCF, and by year two, went 13-0 and won a fake national championship.
in 2017, jeff tedford took over 1-win Fresno St, and won 10 games his first year, 11 his second, and was ranked top-25 both times.
so why is it that so many coaches have success turning around programs coming off historically bad seasons in such a short amount of time? why have more succeeded than failed?
well, in my view, AD's are reluctant to fire a coach after a historically bad season because it hurts their chances of finding a quality replacement. so they will often wait one more year, put the coach on blast, and see if he can improve things a bit. the only time it makes logical sense to fire a coach after a trainwreck season is when you already have a replacement lined up. and to have a replacement lined up, it obviously means you must have a coach interested in the job. and if a coach is interested in the job, it means they think there's a tremendous opportunity.
jeff tedford knew he could quickly turn around fresno state.
scott frost knew he could quickly turn around ucf.
chad morris knew he could quickly turn around smu.
and seth LittreLL knew he could quickly turn around UNT.
how could he not think that? he probably saw the same exact thing morris did - a historically terrible, watered-down league filled with bottom-feeder programs. in the most recent six years, FIU, Southern Miss, SMU, Charlotte, Rice and UTEP have all had winless or one-win seasons. all have made a coaching change or multiple changes. and then UAB didn't even exist for two years.
bill clark could have had other jobs after UAB got rid of its football program following the '14 season. but he decided to sit out two years and return to UAB. why would he do that?
here's why: because he knew he could conquer this terrible league, win the championship in two years, and boost his own profile.
lmao rake
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
rake is certainly passionate and does his research.
im actually not even a k-state fan. just a psychopath. :frown:
So what you're saying is LittreLL=Harbaugh
:love:
I am too lazy at this point in time to do the research, but how many elite-level athletes did Seth coach up during his stints at UNC, Indiana, and Zona? Any pros we can point to that he had a hand in making?also v. lazy so won't look up but Mitchell Trubisky :dunno:
I am too lazy at this point in time to do the research, but how many elite-level athletes did Seth coach up during his stints at UNC, Indiana, and Zona? Any pros we can point to that he had a hand in making?
Well there's a positive!
Well there's a positive!
matt schaub. heath miller. d'brickashaw ferguson. elton brown. josh freeman. jordy nelson. 7-6. 5-7. 5-7. virginia. colts. jags. rutgers. lions. michigan.
So our guy has coached two elite NFL qb’s....
Not liking the hire and giving good evidence. Fair enough
Remotely equating with Prince. LOL
Pretty good BBSing though.
Not liking the hire and giving good evidence. Fair enough
Remotely equating with Prince. LOL
Pretty good BBSing though.
just saying, if you spend 10+ years as a positional coach or coordinator at four different schools in power conferences, there's a pretty good chance you're going to stumble into a good player or two that you can take credit for.
Not at KSU the last five years. :frown:Not liking the hire and giving good evidence. Fair enough
Remotely equating with Prince. LOL
Pretty good BBSing though.
just saying, if you spend 10+ years as a positional coach or coordinator at four different schools in power conferences, there's a pretty good chance you're going to stumble into a good player or two that you can take credit for.
Definitely.
Who are your top 3 picks,after Clark obvi, jrake? Sorry if you've already stated it somewhere
i consider seth LittreLL's time at UNT to be a proverbial 'discovery stint.' turner gill's was at buffalo. then KU hired him and he failed. al golden's was at temple. then miami hired him and he failed. darrel hazell's was at kent state. then purdue hired him and he failed. jim mcelwain's was at colorado st. then florida hired him and he failed. and the list goes on.
dino babers led eastern illinois to the FCS playoffs and then took bowling green to 10 wins before turning around syracuse. brian kelly won national titles at grand valley state, then turned around central michigan, then took Cincy to back-to-back BCS bowls and then got the Notre Dame job.
Who are your top 3 picks,after Clark obvi, jrake? Sorry if you've already stated it somewhere
let's do this in reverse. how did seth LittreLL get on gene taylor's radar? if i had to guess, it's the same way that every coach gets on every AD's radar: by "turning around" a bad program at a lesser school. this is how every fan base and i suspect most AD's begin their coaching search. and short-term win-loss record, i promise you, is the absolute worst way to evaluate a coach.
again, seth LittreLL has had a nice record at UNT. good for him. but he entered the CUSA when there were six and possibly seven other schools in a 13-team league that were total trainwrecks. if you play five or six games against awful teams - on top of a couple cupcake or fcs schools in the non-con - odds are good that you'll have a pretty decent record at least occasionally.
last year, it was lane kiffin's turn.
the year before, it was jeff brohm and bobby wilder's turn.
the year before, it was doc holliday's turn.
this year, it was bill clark's turn.
next year, it will be someone else's turn.
all you must do is play a bunch of bad to mediocre teams in coin-flip games, win some home games against truly inferior teams, have a few breaks go your way, throw in some variance (it's a 12-game schedule for crying out loud) and boom, you're turned around a program. it's not that hard. and it's a total freeroll. when you take over a winless or 1-win team, it's not like you can do worse. and usually a new coach will require a larger commitment to the program than the old coach got before taking the job. so you often have low expectations that can only be exceeded; a larger level of support from the administration (otherwise you wouldn't take the job); and you get breathing room from patient fans who know it'll be a process.
i consider seth LittreLL's time at UNT to be a proverbial 'discovery stint.' turner gill's was at buffalo. then KU hired him and he failed. al golden's was at temple. then miami hired him and he failed. darrel hazell's was at kent state. then purdue hired him and he failed. jim mcelwain's was at colorado st. then florida hired him and he failed. and the list goes on.
the coaches who seem to succeed after taking the 'next step' are those who have proven themselves for a prolonged period of time at one school, or at multiple lower-tier schools. chris petersen was at boise state for 10+ years before taking the washington job. dino babers led eastern illinois to the FCS playoffs and then took bowling green to 10 wins before turning around syracuse. brian kelly won national titles at grand valley state, then turned around central michigan, then took Cincy to back-to-back BCS bowls and then got the Notre Dame job. i could go on and on with the successes and failures.
i don't have the necessary info to actually know who would be a good or bad hire. obviously if i was an AD, i would be leveraging my contacts - coaches, fellow ADs, etc - and trying to find out which coaches are rough ridin' geniuses; which coaches are turning in poor records but would actually perform much better if they had easier schedules, more support, better assistants, etc. nobody wanted david cutcliffe when he was 21-40 through five years. oh wait, that's not true. duke wanted him! they kept him. why? because they had the capacity to look beyond record and realize that this guy was super competent and knew how to build a program.
i guarantee you there are a dozen david cutcliffe's wallowing around CFB right now; coaches who would look a lot smarter in a more favorable situation. chris creighton at EMU might be one of them. but he'll never get a look. AD's fixate on "turnarounds" and highly deceptive win-loss records and performance across a small sample of games (often between 25-50 games), then go from there. and then, as has been the case roughly 50 times in the last three years, they're on the market looking for a new coach because the previous one failed.
if you made it this far, i would double dino babers' salary and bring him to k-state. he's the second-lowest paid coach in the ACC, he's won at three different places, he's coached in the big 12, he's energetic, has a great system, and is the right caliber of candidate for this job.
seth LittreLL would be a nice hire for tulsa.
Rusty is right we need the best recruiter. We offered the best one 25 million and he said no.
Quotedino babers led eastern illinois to the FCS playoffs and then took bowling green to 10 wins before turning around syracuse. brian kelly won national titles at grand valley state, then turned around central michigan, then took Cincy to back-to-back BCS bowls and then got the Notre Dame job.
I think Babers would be awesome (but unrealistic) and would definitely prefer him over LittreLL. However, he was at BGSU for two years, took over a 10 win team, and won 8 and 10 games. I don't see that as significantly more or less impressive than what LittreLL did at UNT.
Kelly went 4-7, 6-5, 9-4 at CMU. I don't think that's significantly different than what LittreLL did at UNT. (What he did at Cincy did in the Big East Cincy is certainly more impressive - we would be LittreLL's Cincy TBH)
Rusty is right we need the best recruiter. We offered the best one 25 million and he said no.
Kelly went 4-7, 6-5, 9-4 at CMU. I don't think that's significantly different than what LittreLL did at UNT. (What he did at Cincy did in the Big East Cincy is certainly more impressive - we would be LittreLL's Cincy TBH)
I think jrake's point -- and it's a great one -- is that a quick turnaround at a smaller, losing school is only part of the equation. It asks the question of KState as to it thinks it really is. How many boxes does the next head coach have to check before he is worthy of KState's time and money?
I get rake's take here and he makes compelling points, plus he is simply a great BBSer and debater. IMO he negates other qualities that LittreLL has that I like (his time at OC, his recruiting at North Texas, and many different mentors), but that's fine. I do think going overboard and basically comparing him to Prince is a bit much. Maybe a comparison to Chad Morris and what he's done (or not done) in his first year at Arkansas is a better comparison/caution. I think many of the names thrown out to compare to (Gill, GMAB) are ridiculous and agents like Jimmy Sexton don't take on coaches that suck.
Now I'm prepared to be destroyed here, I know I can't match rake.
I get rake's take here and he makes compelling points, plus he is simply a great BBSer and debater. IMO he negates other qualities that LittreLL has that I like (his time at OC, his recruiting at North Texas, and many different mentors), but that's fine. I do think going overboard and basically comparing him to Prince is a bit much. Maybe a comparison to Chad Morris and what he's done (or not done) in his first year at Arkansas is a better comparison/caution. I think many of the names thrown out to compare to (Gill, GMAB) are ridiculous and agents like Jimmy Sexton don't take on coaches that suck.
Now I'm prepared to be destroyed here, I know I can't match rake.
interestingly, turner gill - failure at kansas - perfectly illustrates the point i'm making. just because he failed at kansas doesn't mean he's a bad coach. yet no BCS school would ever touch him.
failing at kansas? everybody fails at kansas! Terry Allen failed at Kansas. Charlie Weis failed. David Beaty failed. Mark Mangino was a major "success" and yet he was a .500 coach who went 23-41 in the Big 12 and finished ranked one time in eight years.
Gill landed at Liberty and did just fine. Had four first-place finishes in the Big South in six years, took Liberty to the FCS playoffs, helped the school transition to the FBS level, held their own this year (6-6 record), etc.
but now, he's forever stained. AD's are so fixated on his record at Kansas that they overlook and dismiss all the things that attracted Kansas to him in the first place. or was KU only attracted to him in the first place primarily because of his good-looking record at Buffalo?
this is the cycle of hell.
this ... is college football.
Rake what do you make of BV as a future head coach?
It's fine. If he's good it's great and if he sucks we'll fire him in 3 years and we get to do another coaching search. You don't have to keep every coach until they're 80. It's fine.
Interesting that one of the coaches you lauded (Brian Kelly) actually mirrors the NDSU guys quite a bit at different stages of their careers.
Kliemann (sp?) - no real P5 experience, solidly into an impressive run taking over a former FCS now FBS powerhouse.
Craig Bohl - Actually had great assistant experience at Wiscy, NU, DUKE (good duke team not crappy), improved an already strong NDSU program into an FCS power, then turned around Wyoming, which is actually probably tougher to turn around than UNT. Bohl actually has a much better Assistant's pedigree than Kelly had though. Not sure if Kelly's turnaround at CMU more closely mirrors LittreLL or Bohl though.
Kelly went 4-7, 6-5, 9-4 at CMU. I don't think that's significantly different than what LittreLL did at UNT. (What he did at Cincy did in the Big East Cincy is certainly more impressive - we would be LittreLL's Cincy TBH)
three of Kelly's four losses were to #20 boston college, #10 michigan and a kentucky team that went 8-5 (with losses mainly to ranked SEC teams).
LittreLL lost to la tech (at home), to ODU (as a 14-pt favorite), and to UAB (a school that was extinct two years ago). he also barely eeked past UTEP and UTSA, literal doormats.
let's not compare brian kelly, a two-time national champion (at D-2) who has won 230 games at four different schools - including two undefeated seasons, four BCS bowl games, a CFB playoff appearance, and a national title game appearance - with the north texas coach whose best win is against army and who has done nothing more than beat bethune, lamar, incarnate word, rice, UTSA and UTEP (barely!) in three years.
but congrats to him on his three-way tie for second in the always difficult CUSA West division!
It's fine. If he's good it's great and if he sucks we'll fire him in 3 years and we get to do another coaching search. You don't have to keep every coach until they're 80. It's fine.
Or maybe no AD will touch Gill because he is retired now.I get rake's take here and he makes compelling points, plus he is simply a great BBSer and debater. IMO he negates other qualities that LittreLL has that I like (his time at OC, his recruiting at North Texas, and many different mentors), but that's fine. I do think going overboard and basically comparing him to Prince is a bit much. Maybe a comparison to Chad Morris and what he's done (or not done) in his first year at Arkansas is a better comparison/caution. I think many of the names thrown out to compare to (Gill, GMAB) are ridiculous and agents like Jimmy Sexton don't take on coaches that suck.
Now I'm prepared to be destroyed here, I know I can't match rake.
interestingly, turner gill - failure at kansas - perfectly illustrates the point i'm making. just because he failed at kansas doesn't mean he's a bad coach. yet no BCS school would ever touch him.
failing at kansas? everybody fails at kansas! Terry Allen failed at Kansas. Charlie Weis failed. David Beaty failed. Mark Mangino was a major "success" and yet he was a .500 coach who went 23-41 in the Big 12 and finished ranked one time in eight years.
Gill landed at Liberty and did just fine. Had four first-place finishes in the Big South in six years, took Liberty to the FCS playoffs, helped the school transition to the FBS level, held their own this year (6-6 record), etc.
but now, he's forever stained. AD's are so fixated on his record at Kansas that they overlook and dismiss all the things that attracted Kansas to him in the first place. or was KU only attracted to him in the first place primarily because of his good-looking record at Buffalo?
this is the cycle of hell.
this ... is college football.
Interesting that one of the coaches you lauded (Brian Kelly) actually mirrors the NDSU guys quite a bit at different stages of their careers.
Kliemann (sp?) - no real P5 experience, solidly into an impressive run taking over a former FCS now FBS powerhouse.
Craig Bohl - Actually had great assistant experience at Wiscy, NU, DUKE (good duke team not crappy), improved an already strong NDSU program into an FCS power, then turned around Wyoming, which is actually probably tougher to turn around than UNT. Bohl actually has a much better Assistant's pedigree than Kelly had though. Not sure if Kelly's turnaround at CMU more closely mirrors LittreLL or Bohl though.
i feel like i hear that often. "bohl turned around wyoming!"
did he really?
2018: #82
2017: #73
2016: #78
2015: #154
2014: #126 (Bohl's first year)
2013: #134
2012: #121
2011: #84
2010: #108
2009: #82 (Christensen's first year)
2008: #122
2007: #85
2006: #72
2005: #82
2004: #49
2003: #83 (Glenn's first year)
bohl has had three solid seasons in a row. great. so did joe glenn, except he had five of them including a team that reached the top 50. christensen had two teams that rated very similar to bohl's twice in five years. obviously, bohl did real well at NDSU and i'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he's a good coach far before i would seth LittreLL. but what he's done at wyoming so far is not overly impressive compared to his predecessors.
what was Kelly's best win at CMU?
also, you can stop with the Indiana and north Carolina had job openings and didn't hire him nonsense. it's a garbage take. kstate is a better job, especially for seth LittreLL. his home is Oklahoma. he played at Oklahoma. he has tons of friends and family and even his wife's family in Oklahoma. both sets of parents/grandparents could drive up on a Friday night, see the grandkids, catch a game and then drive back home after church on sunday and still catch 60 minutes. also, he has already been head coaching in and recruiting texas the past four years which would come in ridiculously handy for kstate. Indiana? north Carolina? lol. no thanks. pass.
also, you can stop with the Indiana and north Carolina had job openings and didn't hire him nonsense. it's a garbage take. kstate is a better job, especially for seth LittreLL. his home is Oklahoma. he played at Oklahoma. he has tons of friends and family and even his wife's family in Oklahoma. both sets of parents/grandparents could drive up on a Friday night, see the grandkids, catch a game and then drive back home after church on sunday and still catch 60 minutes. also, he has already been head coaching in and recruiting texas the past four years which would come in ridiculously handy for kstate. Indiana? north Carolina? lol. no thanks. pass.
why didn't texas tech hire him?
I think the real question is does jrake think there is a better fit out there for KSU, or does he just want to be a negative nancy?
Oh geeze you want that NDSU guy don’t you.
also, you can stop with the Indiana and north Carolina had job openings and didn't hire him nonsense. it's a garbage take. kstate is a better job, especially for seth LittreLL. his home is Oklahoma. he played at Oklahoma. he has tons of friends and family and even his wife's family in Oklahoma. both sets of parents/grandparents could drive up on a Friday night, see the grandkids, catch a game and then drive back home after church on sunday and still catch 60 minutes. also, he has already been head coaching in and recruiting texas the past four years which would come in ridiculously handy for kstate. Indiana? north Carolina? lol. no thanks. pass.
why didn't texas tech hire him?
Oh geeze you want that NDSU guy don’t you.
here's why: because he knew he could conquer this terrible league, win the championship in two years, and boost his own profile.
reach out to babers, offer to double his salary.
I'd have loved if Gene had gone out and tried to poach successful power 5 head coaches by throwing money at them.
I'd have loved if Gene had gone out and tried to poach successful power 5 head coaches by throwing money at them.
nah, gene thinks it's best to just go with the same guy mobcat suggested a year ago.
What are those rankings from?what was Kelly's best win at CMU?
his best win in three years was against toledo (#49) in his second year.
here are his best wins while at CMU:
#66 Miami Ohio
#94 Akron
#86 Army
#110 Ohio
#49 Toledo
#104 Ball State
#105 Akron
#112 Toledo
#98 Ball State
#69 Western Michigan
#77 Ohio
this admittedly does not look mind-blowingly successful on the surface. but consider kelly was coaching a team that was rated #170 then #72 then #56. so he was beating plenty of teams that were equal or better than his, especially after adjusting for HFA. LittreLL basically hasn't. he took the field 16 times against a team that was better than his and won only three of those games. as a big favorite, he's come embarrassingly close to losing; and as already noted, he lost straight up to ODU and La Tech this year as 14- and 7-pt favorites.
LittreLL went just 4-8 against the spread this year and only covered one game in all of October and November (out of eight). in other words, he consistently fell short of expectations.
kelly, meanwhile, was consistently beating expectations in his third year. yes, he lost to BC, Michigan and Kentucky, but covered the spread in all three. CMU went 12-2 against the spread for the entire year.
kelly coached 13 seasons at Grand Valley State, winning two national titles his last two years before he arrived at CMU. the three-year sample at CMU was not a discovery stint; it was validation that he was really frickin good.
What are those rankings from?
while i'm personally surprised that not a single shaggy bevo poster suggested tom herman before he was hired, here we find ourselves.
Buffalo Bulls Head coach: Lance Leipold, 4th season, 20–2. Also won a couple national championships in FCS. What do you think of this guy, J rake?
He seems to have that magic formula you admire so much. !0 yrs. of winning in FCS and of course the 4 yrs. at Buffalo.Buffalo Bulls Head coach: Lance Leipold, 4th season, 20–2. Also won a couple national championships in FCS. What do you think of this guy, J rake?
i think i saw his name pop up on a k-state forum once, so am not interested. :dubious:
He seems to have that magic formula you admire so much. !0 yrs. of winning in FCS and of course the 4 yrs. at Buffalo.Buffalo Bulls Head coach: Lance Leipold, 4th season, 20–2. Also won a couple national championships in FCS. What do you think of this guy, J rake?
i think i saw his name pop up on a k-state forum once, so am not interested. :dubious:
He seems to have that magic formula you admire so much. !0 yrs. of winning in FCS and of course the 4 yrs. at Buffalo.Buffalo Bulls Head coach: Lance Leipold, 4th season, 20–2. Also won a couple national championships in FCS. What do you think of this guy, J rake?
i think i saw his name pop up on a k-state forum once, so am not interested. :dubious:
i think you're confusing D3 with FCS. his team competed in something called the wisconsin intercollegiate athletic conference. he has done a nice job at buffalo (20-22, not 20-2 in four years) and has consistently beaten expectations the last two years. an interesting guy but belongs at temple, not k-state.
Do you think the UAB coach is a better choice than Seth Spilt-trail.
Do you think the UAB coach is a better choice than Seth Spilt-trail.
i'm fairly convinced that if clark and LittreLL took the field with the same players that clark's team would win heads up. i think he is a better coach. i also think at k-state, winning with worse players is essential when you're unlikely to outrecruit ou, texas, etc, every year.
bill was pretty awful in big games, but he did beat 'better' teams 39% of the time (k-state was an underdog in roughly half of its games). that's really good, and i'm guessing no coach in the future will match that kind of rate. the goal, then, is to obviously recruit better players and reduce the times you take the field with a lesser team.
i'll concede that LittreLL seems to have a decent chance at doing that. but it's his actual coaching performance that gives me pause.
Do you think the UAB coach is a better choice than Seth Spilt-trail.
i'm fairly convinced that if clark and LittreLL took the field with the same players that clark's team would win heads up. i think he is a better coach. i also think at k-state, winning with worse players is essential when you're unlikely to outrecruit ou, texas, etc, every year.
Do you think the UAB coach is a better choice than Seth Spilt-trail.
i'm fairly convinced that if clark and LittreLL took the field with the same players that clark's team would win heads up. i think he is a better coach. i also think at k-state, winning with worse players is essential when you're unlikely to outrecruit ou, texas, etc, every year.
bill was pretty awful in big games, but he did beat 'better' teams 39% of the time (k-state was an underdog in roughly half of its games). that's really good, and i'm guessing no coach in the future will match that kind of rate. the goal, then, is to obviously recruit better players and reduce the times you take the field with a lesser team.
i'll concede that LittreLL seems to have a decent chance at doing that. but it's his actual coaching performance that gives me pause.
You know most on this BBS think we need a recruiter more than a coach um up type coach, but I agree with coaching over top recruiting for the reasons you stated. Prince was a good example.
A great recruiter COULD beat everyone that isn't Texas or Oklahoma in the league in recruiting. And TBH there aren't a lot of coach em up wizards in the other 7 - the long-termers sort of compete for league titles when they are in talent upswings and fall back when they don't. I guess Patterson is the closest to a coach em upper? Haven't really thought about it.
J Rake, should we go after that dork from UAB now?
as i've said before, i offer to double babers' salary and go from there.
Rake, thoughts on Norvell?
as i've said before, i offer to double babers' salary and go from there.
let's do this
(https://i1.wp.com/footballscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/DinoCuse.jpg?resize=1068%2C601)
J Rake, thoughts on Leavitt?
J Rake, thoughts on Leavitt?
5-7, 7-5, 6-6, 4-8, 7-5.
he's basically an angrier version of paul rhoads.
as i've said before, i offer to double babers' salary and go from there.
let's do this
(https://i1.wp.com/footballscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/DinoCuse.jpg?resize=1068%2C601)
in all seriousness, can someone fwd my contact info to gene taylor?
i'll be in the syracuse area around christmas and would be happy to stop to visit babers in his domed stadium that doesn't even have air conditioning despite being sponsored by an air conditioning company.
in all seriousness, can someone fwd my contact info to gene taylor?
i'll be in the syracuse area around christmas and would be happy to stop to visit babers in his domed stadium that doesn't even have air conditioning despite being sponsored by an air conditioning company.
Me too!
in all seriousness, can someone fwd my contact info to gene taylor?
i'll be in the syracuse area around christmas and would be happy to stop to visit babers in his domed stadium that doesn't even have air conditioning despite being sponsored by an air conditioning company.
Me too!
meet me at turning stone! :love:
Guys please make all of this happenin all seriousness, can someone fwd my contact info to gene taylor?
i'll be in the syracuse area around christmas and would be happy to stop to visit babers in his domed stadium that doesn't even have air conditioning despite being sponsored by an air conditioning company.
Me too!
meet me at turning stone! :love:
I'll be in Ithaca which is almost exactly equidistant to the carrier dome as Turning Stone is.
j rake, please do an analysis of Bret Bielema as a head coach candidate.
Rake, could you give us your top 5? I would love to see this once you've had time to do some research.
So far we have Babers and EMU guy.
allowing the negativity to snowball and engulf the program is a negative for a head coach
Need to hear something on those last two.
J Rake please do Derek Mason next
wow, i have been hearing some rumblings, and just want to say thank you gene for reading my thread.
don't ever hesitate if you need any further help, PM's are open, just slide right in! :love:
WE'RE GETTING DINO?!
hey, you just never know, maybe carl klieman will surprise us.
i can't believe the enthusiasm for this guy. he "turns around" north texas by beating a bunch of bad teams, he runs an offense that is a lesser version of the ones already ran by better big 12 teams (aka every other team), he got outcoached often by first-year CUSA coaches, his team underachieved expectations - sometimes massively - in almost every game it played in october and november down the stretch, and suddenly gene and k-state are tripping all over themselves to hire him?
bill clark, an actual good coach, destroyed LittreLL's UNT team with a program that literally didn't exist when LittreLL began his rebuild.
ya gotta feel for LHC Bill Snyder. he spent most of the last three decades to build up this program, and now ya'll are just gonna turn it over to the north texas coach who can barely beat UTEP and UTSA. pretty sad to watch this happen.
i liked the kansas hire way better. sometimes Les really is more.
:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
DENTON,? Texas? —? Not? long? after telling his? team Friday morning that he was staying? at? North Texas? and? spurning interest?? from Kansas State, Seth LittreLL was in the quarterback room, where players showed him a clip from “The Wolf of Wall Street.”
In the clip, Leonardo DiCaprio’s character delivers a speech declaring, “I’m not leaving!” Someone superimposed LittreLL’s head onto DiCaprio and UNT players onto other people in the scene. The players loved it and shared it on social media. The quarterbacks told LittreLL that’s what he should have done.
In the movie,” LittreLL joked Tuesday. “They said, ‘Coach, this is what you should have done.’ If I’d have known that, I would’ve. That would have been awesome. It was pretty fun.”
LittreLL is 23-16 in three years since taking over a 1-11 program after the 2015 season. He has guided the Mean Green to three consecutive bowl games and two consecutive nine-win seasons. That draws the interest of Power 5 schools during the coaching carousel.
Texas Tech was thought to be a possibility because LittreLL had coached there before, but the Red Raiders hired Matt Wells from Utah State — coincidentally, North Texas’ opponent in Saturday’s New Mexico Bowl. Kansas State was also interested in LittreLL. KCTV in Kansas City reported that talks broke down because LittreLL wanted to bring his full staff. There’s also a belief that LittreLL would be interested in Oklahoma, his alma mater, if Lincoln Riley were to leave for the NFL, making a buyout an important factor.
Kansas State hired North Dakota State’s Chris Klieman on Monday night, meaning all Power 5 jobs are now filled. LittreLL is set to stay in Denton, and he’s returning to a lot, with only two offensive starters graduating after this season and star quarterback Mason Fine back. Offensive coordinator Graham Harrell is also expected to return, turning down interest elsewhere. An indoor practice facility is set to open next year. The 2019 season should be another big one for North Texas.
LittreLL spoke with The Athletic on Tuesday about his decision to return. He would not get into specifics about Kansas State, but he made clear what he has. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Do the players know what’s going on and hear the job rumors?
It’s hard not to. With social media, everybody has a rumor and a voice. Some of it’s true; most of it’s not. I tell our guys they’ll be the first to know. If it comes out of my mouth is the most important thing. My guys understand I’ve always shot them straight. We have a relationship where we can communicate that. It can be challenging to focus, whether it’s a coaching change, something in the season, expectations. We have to make sure we’re listening to the voice in that room every day and understand. They did a great job handling everything.
What was your message to them?
My message was I want to be here. There’s been a lot of rumors out there. I’m always going to make sure they understand I got a family; we’re all family. There are certain situations you may look at, but I have an unbelievable place here. We love it here as a family. To be honest, now’s not the time. We still have a lot to accomplish here. Look what we have returning. We’re losing some great teammates, but we have so much returning, we’re in a good spot.
Kansas State hired Chris Klieman the other night. What can you say about your conversations with Kansas State?
I don’t talk about other opportunities. I really don’t. Here’s why: Once you comment one time, you’re always going to (be asked). All I’m talking about is our situation here, the special place it is, the special things we’re doing. A lot of times, some rumors are true, some aren’t. It’s not worth even talking about, out of respect for not only our university but others as well. I’m not going to ever comment on that.
What does your staff mean to you?
A lot, obviously. It’s a great group. The work they’ve put in, this group has had a lot of opportunities to move on. They’re going to continue to. They’re great coaching, well-deserving, just like our players. We’re a pretty tight group. I do believe we all feel the same, that this is a special place and it would take something very special for us to move on. My coaches know I want what’s best for them and their families. If there are certain opportunities that come up that are best for them, I’ll do everything in my power to support that. But they understand where we’re at, what we’re trying to accomplish, and that’s why we’ve been able to keep great coaches here.
How important is it for a coach to be able to have his own guys?
Continuity, chemistry, the more turnover you have, the less stability you have. New guys come in and have to re-coach your culture, your expectations, your systems, the relationships. So much goes into it other than Xs and Os. Anytime you lose somebody, you have to re-coach. That’s challenging, but it’s part of the profession. It’s been huge here, having the continuity with coaches and players.
Do you expect Graham to be back?
I expect Graham to be back. Graham’s turned down a lot of opportunities. I know he feels the same way about this university, what we’re trying to accomplish. I feel like we have a special group coming back offensively. We lose two starters up front but should have everybody back. Make no mistake, we understand we have something special. We can do big-time things here.
Do experiences talking with other schools help you realize what matters most to you as a head coach in terms of what you need?
Every experience is unique. You’re always learning and growing. It doesn’t open my eyes to what we have. I haven’t doubted what we have here. I’ve never doubted this place is special. I don’t doubt it when I take my kids to school. They’re developing, they love it. It goes deeper, in the community. A lot goes into it with your family. Uprooting and moving your children, making them adjust. With any of these opportunities, here, assistant coaches, I was an offensive coordinator that moved, there’s a lot that goes into it. Unless it’s something you truly feel is that much better or something you can’t refuse, then why do it? I feel like we are building something really special here. I have a vision of what this place is and can be. I love it.
What was the reaction in recruiting?
It’s been great. They hear rumors, too. People recruit against us. Every year I’ve been here, after Year One, people say I’m not going to be here. All you can do is shoot people straight, tell them where you’re at. I’m always going to. Whether it’s recruiting or our team and coaches, I’m going to shoot you straight. I’m not going to lie to you. Your word is all you have.
With everything here, from your relationship with athletic director Wren Baker to new facilities coming, is it going to take something above and beyond to get you to leave?
I think we’ve proven that the past couple years. I’m here for a reason. If I didn’t believe this place could be special, if I didn’t believe in what we’re doing here, I wouldn’t be here. That oughta be loud enough.
We'll see in the next 1-2 years if LittreLL made a mistake by demanding too much. Sounds like a hell of an offer was on the table. He cannot afford to regress at North Texas.
If OU plucks him from North Texas, I will eat my hat.
So will I, but name their top 5 right now.
^illusory promise
He wants OU if Riley is out for the NFL
So will I, but name their top 5 right now.
YupHe wants OU if Riley is out for the NFL
Well he should have taken the K-State job then, but Gene didn't want him anyway, probably for the same reason that Kirby didn't either.
Oh, I agree. But what I heard is he was freaked out by the buyout.So will I, but name their top 5 right now.
I defer to j rake on that, but OU has got to be a top 5 (at very least top 10) job right now. It seems unnecessary for them to hire any replacement who isn't currently having success at the P5 level.
Mean Gene deserves apology from all of us at this point.
Not sorry for my mini meltdown, but good two day stretch to be a CK early adopter.Bowls are meaningless exhibitions that show little to nothing about a coach's abilities
Not sorry for my mini meltdown, but good two day stretch to be a CK early adopter.Bowls are meaningless exhibitions that show little to nothing about a coach's abilities
Unless UNT is making a playoff or conference championship run, then every single game they play is for the sake of their bowl game. Suggesting that it means less than a regular season game is just a holdover coping mechanism from being a Cats fan.
Relevant to what?
Not sorry for my mini meltdown, but good two day stretch to be a CK early adopter.Bowls are meaningless exhibitions that show little to nothing about a coach's abilities
Not sorry for my mini meltdown, but good two day stretch to be a CK early adopter.Bowls are meaningless exhibitions that show little to nothing about a coach's abilities
Utah State only had four coaches
reach out to babers, offer to double his salary.
Like LittreLL recently, I hadn't heard of Babers until a bbs'r posted his name, but I'd have loved if Gene had gone out and tried to poach successful power 5 head coaches by throwing money at them. I wanted Disgruntled Dabo.
We could've had Dabo for $15m/year at the most and been in the playoff every year until football's extinct.
Good Lord. Is this a Reno Cat sock?QuoteWe could've had Dabo for $15m/year at the most and been in the playoff every year until football's extinct.
Dabble Swiney would get his "Posterior Kicked" on a constant and continuing basis if he were in an actual Football Conference instead of the BasquetteBalle Activity Group known as A-Murri-Can Cup Cakes
A-Murri-Can Cup Cakes belongs in the same Activity Grouping as the MAC and C-USA. A-Murri-Can Cup Cakes is nothing more than Westerly Vagina.
Remember how long it took WV to actually be competitive in BIG 12? And that was A_F_T_E_R they had beaten Clem's-Son W 70–33 inas Bowl Game.
Take the A-Murri-Can Cup Cakes, fold them 5 times and put them where the Sun Don't Shine --- which is where all those schools belong.
Thank god this dude was too much of a shithead to realize we were going to vastly overpay him
do you do basketball too or just football j rake?
BasquetteBall, what you do when too damned Cowardly to play FOOTBALL, Baseball, Track or Tiddlewinks.
dodged a bullet there. wow. His record lately is not good. Didn't he turn down offers from other places too? Or maybe i am not remembering that right.Next in line for the OU job, IIRC.
I can't believeThat's actually pretty good! Also that looks like Phil Bennett on the sideline!we were close to hiringthis bozo was tied to our coaching search
https://youtu.be/2SY8zJBtS0o
dodged a bullet there. wow. His record lately is not good. Didn't he turn down offers from other places too? Or maybe i am not remembering that right.
Anyone know whatever happened to Matt Hall? I think it’s pretty shitty how his so-called media friends totally shunned him after his fall from grace.
Oh geeze you want that NDSU guy don’t you.
reach out to babers, offer to double his salary. if he says no, do whatever you want.
in all honesty, k-state football probably won't win 9 games in a season ever again anyway, so who really cares.
Good prediction on kstate never winning 9 games in a season ever again @j rakeGet his ass, wetwillie!
https://twitter.com/max_olson/status/1597972768032804865?s=20&t=OHPobzc_u8R_qOcJtpz1ywWren is a such a cool name.
Welcome to the big 12 Seth
https://twitter.com/max_olson/status/1597972768032804865?s=20&t=OHPobzc_u8R_qOcJtpz1yw
Welcome to the big 12 Seth
Next year?https://twitter.com/max_olson/status/1597972768032804865?s=20&t=OHPobzc_u8R_qOcJtpz1yw
Welcome to the big 12 Seth
It was already reported that WVU doesn't have the cash to fire Neal Brown
https://twitter.com/max_olson/status/1597972768032804865?s=20&t=OHPobzc_u8R_qOcJtpz1ywWren is a such a cool name.
Welcome to the big 12 Seth
Good prediction on kstate never winning 9 games in a season ever again @j rake
They looked pretty good with Phil Bennett coaching the bowl game against Boise
You've been nailsGood prediction on kstate never winning 9 games in a season ever again @j rake
since i wrote that, they've won 8, 4, 8, 10. so i'm not wrong yet? :D