Author Topic: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down  (Read 38068 times)

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Offline Winters

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2018, 01:25:36 PM »
This thread is amazing
Best #heel and/or #babyface on this blogsite



If it were up to me, Wintz would be on a fan scholarship, full ride.

Offline j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2018, 01:30:10 PM »
I think jrake's point -- and it's a great one -- is that a quick turnaround at a smaller, losing school is only part of the equation. It asks the question of KState as to it thinks it really is. How many boxes does the next head coach have to check before he is worthy of KState's time and money?

LHC Bill Snyder came to k-state with a singular purpose: to do things better than they've ever been done before.

he had a very good plan. first, he was going to work harder than any coach has ever worked. second, he was going to be more detail oriented than any coach could ever be - all the way down to the type of butter used at the team meals. third, he was going to schedule cupcakes in the non-con which would serve a dual-purpose in helping k-state gain national attention: 1) by making it a near mathematical certainty that k-state would gain bowl eligibility; and 2) by leveraging a strong early record to climb in the polls (back in the 1990s, most writers and coaches just scanned the standings to see who had the best records and voted accordingly; regardless of quality of competition). fourth, beat kansas and try to beat the lesser north division teams (being able to avoid texas or ou in a given season was a major plus as well.)

all of this contributed to help raise k-state's profile as a program.

as bad as the ron prince hire proved to be, i'd argue that it was one of the most interesting, inspired choices that i've seen in the 20-plus years i've spent following college football. because like snyder, ron had a very good plan. first, he was going to hire a great staff. and he actually did. james franklin (eventual coach at vandy and penn state) and raheem morris (eventual coach of the TB Bucs) were both very good/young coordinators and energetic recruiters. he had positional coaches who proved to be very competent. it was a great staff for a first-time head coach. second, ron was desperate to land an NFL caliber qb to build around. third, he wanted to schedule big games that would put k-state on national TV - the auburn night game, the louisville game on thursday night, etc. and fourth, he wanted to be bold and daring (he not only wanted to call trick plays, but he wanted to do it on the biggest stage - all in an attempt to boost k-state's national appeal).

in 2006, it fuckin worked. he had a legitimately promising first season.

but then he turned into a micromanaging control freak, belittled his coaches, bullied his players, lost the fanbase's support after some uninspired outings and the whole thing fell apart.

but again, he had a good plan. it wasn't as good as snyder's, but it was good.

maybe i'm wrong, but i feel like i've seen five dozen seth littrells.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2018, 01:33:04 PM »
I get rake's take here and he makes compelling points, plus he is simply a great BBSer and debater. IMO he negates other qualities that LittreLL has that I like (his time at OC, his recruiting at North Texas, and many different mentors), but that's fine. I do think going overboard and basically comparing him to Prince is a bit much. Maybe a comparison to Chad Morris and what he's done (or not done) in his first year at Arkansas is a better comparison/caution. I think many of the names thrown out to compare to (Gill, GMAB) are ridiculous and agents like Jimmy Sexton don't take on coaches that suck.

Now I'm prepared to be destroyed here, I know I can't match rake.

Online wetwillie

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2018, 01:35:29 PM »
Rake what do you make of BV as a future head coach?
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Offline _33

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2018, 01:37:48 PM »
It's fine.  If he's good it's great and if he sucks we'll fire him in 3 years and we get to do another coaching search.  You don't have to keep every coach until they're 80.  It's fine.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2018, 01:41:42 PM »
I hope he's good but he certainly can pad a win total with UTEP, UTSA, and Rice.

Things I like: Not being from Snyder's coaching tree, an ability to recruit, young enough that this is not his "retirement" job

Offline j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2018, 01:48:01 PM »
I get rake's take here and he makes compelling points, plus he is simply a great BBSer and debater. IMO he negates other qualities that LittreLL has that I like (his time at OC, his recruiting at North Texas, and many different mentors), but that's fine. I do think going overboard and basically comparing him to Prince is a bit much. Maybe a comparison to Chad Morris and what he's done (or not done) in his first year at Arkansas is a better comparison/caution. I think many of the names thrown out to compare to (Gill, GMAB) are ridiculous and agents like Jimmy Sexton don't take on coaches that suck.

Now I'm prepared to be destroyed here, I know I can't match rake.

interestingly, turner gill - failure at kansas - perfectly illustrates the point i'm making. just because he failed at kansas doesn't mean he's a bad coach. yet no BCS school would ever touch him.

failing at kansas? everybody fails at kansas! Terry Allen failed at Kansas. Charlie Weis failed. David Beaty failed. Mark Mangino was a major "success" and yet he was a .500 coach who went 23-41 in the Big 12 and finished ranked one time in eight years.

Gill landed at Liberty and did just fine. Had four first-place finishes in the Big South in six years, took Liberty to the FCS playoffs, helped the school transition to the FBS level, held their own this year (6-6 record), etc.

but now, he's forever stained. AD's are so fixated on his record at Kansas that they overlook and dismiss all the things that attracted Kansas to him in the first place. or was KU only attracted to him in the first place primarily because of his good-looking record at Buffalo?

this is the cycle of hell.

this ... is college football.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2018, 01:51:50 PM »
Gill got Kansas partly because they wanted the upstanding nice guy as opposed to mean Mangino.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2018, 01:56:29 PM »
I get rake's take here and he makes compelling points, plus he is simply a great BBSer and debater. IMO he negates other qualities that LittreLL has that I like (his time at OC, his recruiting at North Texas, and many different mentors), but that's fine. I do think going overboard and basically comparing him to Prince is a bit much. Maybe a comparison to Chad Morris and what he's done (or not done) in his first year at Arkansas is a better comparison/caution. I think many of the names thrown out to compare to (Gill, GMAB) are ridiculous and agents like Jimmy Sexton don't take on coaches that suck.

Now I'm prepared to be destroyed here, I know I can't match rake.

interestingly, turner gill - failure at kansas - perfectly illustrates the point i'm making. just because he failed at kansas doesn't mean he's a bad coach. yet no BCS school would ever touch him.

failing at kansas? everybody fails at kansas! Terry Allen failed at Kansas. Charlie Weis failed. David Beaty failed. Mark Mangino was a major "success" and yet he was a .500 coach who went 23-41 in the Big 12 and finished ranked one time in eight years.

Gill landed at Liberty and did just fine. Had four first-place finishes in the Big South in six years, took Liberty to the FCS playoffs, helped the school transition to the FBS level, held their own this year (6-6 record), etc.

but now, he's forever stained. AD's are so fixated on his record at Kansas that they overlook and dismiss all the things that attracted Kansas to him in the first place. or was KU only attracted to him in the first place primarily because of his good-looking record at Buffalo?

this is the cycle of hell.

this ... is college football.

Man, you are good.

Offline j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2018, 01:58:29 PM »
Rake what do you make of BV as a future head coach?

if there was a golf tournament for college football coaches, there would be galleries following saban and dabo and urban and kirby and a handful of other prominent coaches. i'm talking huge, massive crowds.

and venables is so good, so proven, so accomplished by now, that i have to think he would have a nice mid-sized gallery of his own.

and then there's seth LittreLL's group. there would be nobody there. literally nobody. the holes would be so profoundly empty that the course would send out the maintenance crews to work on cutting the fairways and the rough while he hacks it around in silence while big roars can be heard in the distance, when venables is draining 35-foot birdie putts and real coaches like Babers are ripping 350-yard bombs straight down the middle.

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2018, 02:10:25 PM »
It's fine.  If he's good it's great and if he sucks we'll fire him in 3 years and we get to do another coaching search.  You don't have to keep every coach until they're 80.  It's fine.

Yep.  If LittreLL sucks, we'll can his ass and can Gene's ass for fixating on and hiring LittreLL last week as first reported by Pete, and then Rake can be the consultant on hiring Venables/other.

Offline SteelCat

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2018, 02:14:54 PM »
Will be a great hire and have the full support of all Wildcat fans.  This guy is not a Ron Prince.  What is important is he brings a few of his top assistants with him to keep with a few of the current staff.

Bright future ahead at K-State!

Offline nicname

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2018, 02:18:21 PM »
Interesting that one of the coaches you lauded (Brian Kelly) actually mirrors the NDSU guys quite a bit at different stages of their careers.

Kliemann (sp?) - no real P5 experience, solidly into an impressive run taking over a former FCS now FBS powerhouse.

Craig Bohl - Actually had great assistant experience at Wiscy, NU, DUKE (good duke team not crappy), improved an already strong NDSU program into an FCS power, then turned around Wyoming, which is actually probably tougher to turn around than UNT. Bohl actually has a much better Assistant's pedigree than Kelly had though. Not sure if Kelly's turnaround at CMU more closely mirrors LittreLL or Bohl though.

If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2018, 02:35:07 PM »
Interesting that one of the coaches you lauded (Brian Kelly) actually mirrors the NDSU guys quite a bit at different stages of their careers.

Kliemann (sp?) - no real P5 experience, solidly into an impressive run taking over a former FCS now FBS powerhouse.

Craig Bohl - Actually had great assistant experience at Wiscy, NU, DUKE (good duke team not crappy), improved an already strong NDSU program into an FCS power, then turned around Wyoming, which is actually probably tougher to turn around than UNT. Bohl actually has a much better Assistant's pedigree than Kelly had though. Not sure if Kelly's turnaround at CMU more closely mirrors LittreLL or Bohl though.

i feel like i hear that often. "bohl turned around wyoming!"

did he really?

2018: #82
2017: #73
2016: #78
2015: #154
2014: #126 (Bohl's first year)
2013: #134
2012: #121
2011: #84
2010: #108
2009: #82 (Christensen's first year)
2008: #122
2007: #85
2006: #72
2005: #82
2004: #49
2003: #83 (Glenn's first year)


bohl has had three solid seasons in a row. great. so did joe glenn, except he had five of them including a team that reached the top 50. christensen had two teams that rated very similar to bohl's twice in five years. obviously, bohl did real well at NDSU and i'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he's a good coach far before i would seth LittreLL. but what he's done at wyoming so far is not overly impressive compared to his predecessors.

Offline michigancat

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2018, 02:38:14 PM »
Kelly went 4-7, 6-5, 9-4 at CMU. I don't think that's significantly different than what LittreLL did at UNT. (What he did at Cincy did in the Big East Cincy is certainly more impressive - we would be LittreLL's Cincy TBH)

three of Kelly's four losses were to #20 boston college, #10 michigan and a kentucky team that went 8-5 (with losses mainly to ranked SEC teams).

LittreLL lost to la tech (at home), to ODU (as a 14-pt favorite), and to UAB (a school that was extinct two years ago). he also barely eeked past UTEP and UTSA, literal doormats.

let's not compare brian kelly, a two-time national champion (at D-2) who has won 230 games at four different schools - including two undefeated seasons, four BCS bowl games, a CFB playoff appearance, and a national title game appearance - with the north texas coach whose best win is against army and who has done nothing more than beat bethune, lamar, incarnate word, rice, UTSA and UTEP (barely!) in three years.

but congrats to him on his three-way tie for second in the always difficult CUSA West division!

what was Kelly's best win at CMU?

Offline michigancat

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2018, 02:39:38 PM »
It's fine.  If he's good it's great and if he sucks we'll fire him in 3 years and we get to do another coaching search.  You don't have to keep every coach until they're 80.  It's fine.

this is why you get the best recruiter you can. If they can't "coach em up" or whatever you at least have athletes for the next guy

Offline Spracne

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2018, 02:43:57 PM »
I get rake's take here and he makes compelling points, plus he is simply a great BBSer and debater. IMO he negates other qualities that LittreLL has that I like (his time at OC, his recruiting at North Texas, and many different mentors), but that's fine. I do think going overboard and basically comparing him to Prince is a bit much. Maybe a comparison to Chad Morris and what he's done (or not done) in his first year at Arkansas is a better comparison/caution. I think many of the names thrown out to compare to (Gill, GMAB) are ridiculous and agents like Jimmy Sexton don't take on coaches that suck.

Now I'm prepared to be destroyed here, I know I can't match rake.

interestingly, turner gill - failure at kansas - perfectly illustrates the point i'm making. just because he failed at kansas doesn't mean he's a bad coach. yet no BCS school would ever touch him.

failing at kansas? everybody fails at kansas! Terry Allen failed at Kansas. Charlie Weis failed. David Beaty failed. Mark Mangino was a major "success" and yet he was a .500 coach who went 23-41 in the Big 12 and finished ranked one time in eight years.

Gill landed at Liberty and did just fine. Had four first-place finishes in the Big South in six years, took Liberty to the FCS playoffs, helped the school transition to the FBS level, held their own this year (6-6 record), etc.

but now, he's forever stained. AD's are so fixated on his record at Kansas that they overlook and dismiss all the things that attracted Kansas to him in the first place. or was KU only attracted to him in the first place primarily because of his good-looking record at Buffalo?

this is the cycle of hell.

this ... is college football.
Or maybe no AD will touch Gill because he is retired now.

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Offline michigancat

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2018, 02:50:08 PM »
Interesting that one of the coaches you lauded (Brian Kelly) actually mirrors the NDSU guys quite a bit at different stages of their careers.

Kliemann (sp?) - no real P5 experience, solidly into an impressive run taking over a former FCS now FBS powerhouse.

Craig Bohl - Actually had great assistant experience at Wiscy, NU, DUKE (good duke team not crappy), improved an already strong NDSU program into an FCS power, then turned around Wyoming, which is actually probably tougher to turn around than UNT. Bohl actually has a much better Assistant's pedigree than Kelly had though. Not sure if Kelly's turnaround at CMU more closely mirrors LittreLL or Bohl though.

i feel like i hear that often. "bohl turned around wyoming!"

did he really?

2018: #82
2017: #73
2016: #78
2015: #154
2014: #126 (Bohl's first year)
2013: #134
2012: #121
2011: #84
2010: #108
2009: #82 (Christensen's first year)
2008: #122
2007: #85
2006: #72
2005: #82
2004: #49
2003: #83 (Glenn's first year)


bohl has had three solid seasons in a row. great. so did joe glenn, except he had five of them including a team that reached the top 50. christensen had two teams that rated very similar to bohl's twice in five years. obviously, bohl did real well at NDSU and i'd give him the benefit of the doubt that he's a good coach far before i would seth LittreLL. but what he's done at wyoming so far is not overly impressive compared to his predecessors.

what are these rankings from

also, I wholeheartedly agree with JRake's take on Prince

Offline j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2018, 03:00:15 PM »
what was Kelly's best win at CMU?

his best win in three years was against toledo (#49) in his second year.

here are his best wins while at CMU:

#66 Miami Ohio
#94 Akron
#86 Army
#110 Ohio
#49 Toledo
#104 Ball State
#105 Akron
#112 Toledo
#98 Ball State
#69 Western Michigan
#77 Ohio


this admittedly does not look mind-blowingly successful on the surface. but consider kelly was coaching a team that was rated #170 then #72 then #56. so he was beating plenty of teams that were equal or better than his, especially after adjusting for HFA. LittreLL basically hasn't. he took the field 16 times against a team that was better than his and won only three of those games. as a big favorite, he's come embarrassingly close to losing; and as already noted, he lost straight up to ODU and La Tech this year as 14- and 7-pt favorites.

LittreLL went just 4-8 against the spread this year and only covered one game in all of October and November (out of eight). in other words, he consistently fell short of expectations.

kelly, meanwhile, was consistently beating expectations in his third year. yes, he lost to BC, Michigan and Kentucky, but covered the spread in all three. CMU went 12-2 against the spread for the entire year.

kelly coached 13 seasons at Grand Valley State, winning two national titles his last two years before he arrived at CMU. the three-year sample at CMU was not a discovery stint; it was validation that he was really frickin good.

Offline Dr Rick Daris

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2018, 03:09:37 PM »
call me crazy, but i'll take my chances on the good looking, great talking third year coach of a texas school with local ties and good pedigree that took his current team from a one win season before he got there to a handful of plays away from going undefeated.

also, you can stop with the Indiana and north Carolina had job openings and didn't hire him nonsense. it's a garbage take. kstate is a better job, especially for seth LittreLL. his home is Oklahoma. he played at Oklahoma. he has tons of friends and family and even his wife's family in Oklahoma. both sets of parents/grandparents could drive up on a Friday night, see the grandkids, catch a game and then drive back home after church on sunday and still catch 60 minutes. also, he has already been head coaching in and recruiting texas the past four years which would come in ridiculously handy for kstate. Indiana? north Carolina? lol. no thanks. pass. their proximity sucks. he has no local ties. they are both coaching graveyards. kstate meanwhile has only fired one football coach in the last 30 years.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 03:16:22 PM by Dr Rick Daris »

Offline catastrophe

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2018, 03:13:50 PM »
I think the real question is does jrake think there is a better fit out there for KSU, or does he just want to be a negative nancy?

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2018, 03:16:13 PM »
snowbrag compares the last 3 years at ksu vs nt

2016
#95 unt (5-8)
wins: #55 army, #65 southern miss, #117 marshall, #121 rice, FCS bethune-cookman
losses: #7 western ky, #28 florida, #32 la tech, #49 middle tenn, #55 army, #79 utsa, #92 smu, #101 utep

#40 ksu (9-4)
wins: #37 texas a&m, #59 baylor, #66 tcu, #73 texas, #83 ttu, #105 isu, #118 fau, #123 ku, FCS mo state
losses: #6 ou, #20 osu, #21 stanford, #22 wvu

2017
#53 unt (9-5)
wins: #49 army, #60 southern miss, #70 la tech, #74 uab, #76 utsa, #109 odu, #123 rice, #129 utep, FCS lamar
losses: #15 fau, #15 fau, #19 troy, #27 iowa, #69 smu

#38 ksu (8-5)
wins: #14 osu, #40 isu, #55 ucla, #59 ttu, #118 baylor, #122 charlotte, #126 ku, FCS central ark
losses: #5 ou, #13 tcu, #47 texas, #61 wvu, #78 vanderbilt

2018
#51 unt (9-4)
wins: #80 fau, #87 southern miss, #91 smu, #101 liberty, #109 arkansas, #126 utsa, #128 rice, #129 utep, FCS incarnate word
losses: #16 utah state (future), #35 uab, #90 la tech, #108 odu

#93 ksu (5-7)
wins: #64 osu, #77 ttu, #107 ku, #126 utsa, FCS south dakota
losses: #3 ou, #8 miss st, #20 wvu, #25 texas, #34 isu, #62 tcu, #95 baylor

Offline j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #122 on: December 06, 2018, 03:16:39 PM »
a coach similarly successful as brian kelly, with perhaps an easier path, was jim tressel. he coached at youngstown state for 15 years before he got the ohio state job - and got to bypass the mid-tier MAC job completely.

the track record of coaches who come from FCS (joe moorhead spent four years as coach at fordham from 2012-15; dino babers coached at eastern illinois; etc) is actually quite decent. those guys have to grind, year after year, with limited budgets; constantly changing (and smaller) staffs; and they have to take care of far more aspects of the program than their FBS counterparts. and because the pressure is less intense, it gives them more freedom to experiment and grow into the best possible version of themselves; rather than constantly worrying about job security and fan reaction and ticket sales like FBS coaches do.

just as there's a trend right now of NFL teams wanting to hire college coaches, i think you'll eventually see more BCS level teams try to pluck up-and-comers from the FCS ranks. sustained success for 10+ years at an FCS school is likely far more telling than short-term "success" at a low-level FBS school.

Offline j rake

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2018, 03:19:44 PM »
also, you can stop with the Indiana and north Carolina had job openings and didn't hire him nonsense. it's a garbage take. kstate is a better job, especially for seth LittreLL. his home is Oklahoma. he played at Oklahoma. he has tons of friends and family and even his wife's family in Oklahoma. both sets of parents/grandparents could drive up on a Friday night, see the grandkids, catch a game and then drive back home after church on sunday and still catch 60 minutes. also, he has already been head coaching in and recruiting texas the past four years which would come in ridiculously handy for kstate. Indiana? north Carolina? lol. no thanks. pass.

why didn't texas tech hire him?

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: i give LittreLL 2 thumbs down
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2018, 03:32:06 PM »
also, you can stop with the Indiana and north Carolina had job openings and didn't hire him nonsense. it's a garbage take. kstate is a better job, especially for seth LittreLL. his home is Oklahoma. he played at Oklahoma. he has tons of friends and family and even his wife's family in Oklahoma. both sets of parents/grandparents could drive up on a Friday night, see the grandkids, catch a game and then drive back home after church on sunday and still catch 60 minutes. also, he has already been head coaching in and recruiting texas the past four years which would come in ridiculously handy for kstate. Indiana? north Carolina? lol. no thanks. pass.

why didn't texas tech hire him?

I would guess because of connections to Leach. LittreLL may not even have wanted that job just because how Leach (a major mentor) was treated, especially if he had prospects elsewhere.