Author Topic: Race in America thread  (Read 2648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 38612
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Race in America thread
« on: August 01, 2018, 09:06:34 AM »
sys has been putting a lot of this kind of stuff in the college campus thread but it probably deserves its own thread.

Quote
The American middle class (predominantly white by definition) was created after World War II by way of federal programs like the VA, the FHA home programs and the G.I. Bill. This example of white welfare was one of the largest wealth-creation and intergenerational wealth-transfer programs in history. Again, African-Americans and other nonwhites were, for the most part, denied access to those opportunities. Today's extreme racial wealth gap is the most obvious result.

What economists and other social scientists describe as "the submerged state" — government programs such as mortgage interest deductions, capital gains and other tax credits and cuts, and financial subsidies for entire industries — is another example of white welfare. Whites are disproportionately overrepresented as beneficiaries of the submerged state. Moreover, the submerged state is a central means through which the racial wealth gap is maintained in so-called "post racial" "colorblind" America.

There is a complication. New research by Robb Willer, professor of sociology at  Stanford University, and Rachel Wetts, a researcher at the University of California, demonstrates that despite all the ways that government provided welfare programs to help them, white Americans are willing to cut such programs if they believe that African-Americans and other nonwhites may benefit.


https://www.salon.com/2018/08/01/white-americans-support-welfare-programs-but-only-for-themselves-says-new-research/

https://academic.oup.com/sf/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/sf/soy046/5002999


(Want to get rid of the ad? Register now for free!)

sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 31525
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2018, 09:37:16 AM »
good idea, splitting the pc thread.
feel the awesome power, the wonderful beauty, of uncontrollable male passion.

Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

  • Racist Piece of Shit
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 18387
  • Kiss my ass and suck my dick
    • View Profile
    • I am the one and only Sugar Dick
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2018, 11:12:03 AM »
sys has been putting a lot of this kind of stuff in the college campus thread but it probably deserves its own thread.

Quote
The American middle class (predominantly white by definition) was created after World War II by way of federal programs like the VA, the FHA home programs and the G.I. Bill. This example of white welfare was one of the largest wealth-creation and intergenerational wealth-transfer programs in history. Again, African-Americans and other nonwhites were, for the most part, denied access to those opportunities. Today's extreme racial wealth gap is the most obvious result.

What economists and other social scientists describe as "the submerged state" — government programs such as mortgage interest deductions, capital gains and other tax credits and cuts, and financial subsidies for entire industries — is another example of white welfare. Whites are disproportionately overrepresented as beneficiaries of the submerged state. Moreover, the submerged state is a central means through which the racial wealth gap is maintained in so-called "post racial" "colorblind" America.

There is a complication. New research by Robb Willer, professor of sociology at  Stanford University, and Rachel Wetts, a researcher at the University of California, demonstrates that despite all the ways that government provided welfare programs to help them, white Americans are willing to cut such programs if they believe that African-Americans and other nonwhites may benefit.


https://www.salon.com/2018/08/01/white-americans-support-welfare-programs-but-only-for-themselves-says-new-research/

https://academic.oup.com/sf/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/sf/soy046/5002999

Literally none of this is true.  :facepalm:  It is completely contrived.

This so so goddamn stupid I cannot believe educated adults actually believe it. A modicum of research completely dispells the entire premise.
goEMAW Karmic BBS Shepherd

michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 38612
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2018, 12:15:28 PM »
link?

wetwillie

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 19649
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2018, 12:24:32 PM »
What is an intergenerational wealth creation program?  Does that mean the VA and GI Bill etc resulted in money from older Americans of all racial backgrounds flowing to primarily younger white americans?
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6968
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2018, 12:40:53 PM »
Didn't read the article, but what the excerpt implies is that whites were over-represented in either the draft or voluntary military service or both.  Is that true?  I had never thought about it, but I guess I just assumed that wasn't the case.

michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 38612
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2018, 01:03:03 PM »
What is an intergenerational wealth creation program?  Does that mean the VA and GI Bill etc resulted in money from older Americans of all racial backgrounds flowing to primarily younger white americans?

In a way, yes, while excluding minority veterans from the benefits.

http://progressive.org/dispatches/how-african-american-wwii-veterans-were-scorned-by-the-g-i-b/

Also the FHA systematically denied government-backed loans to all minorities, not just vets.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/the-racist-housing-policy-that-made-your-neighborhood/371439/

Didn't read the article, but what the excerpt implies is that whites were over-represented in either the draft or voluntary military service or both.  Is that true?  I had never thought about it, but I guess I just assumed that wasn't the case.

It doesn't look like you read the excerpt.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 01:17:45 PM by michigancat »

catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 6968
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2018, 01:22:09 PM »
Well the excerpt doesn't make it clear what "denied these opportunities" means, but now I understand.  If the theory is that whites disproportionately benefited from low-cost or free education (believable), and that this is the leading cause of a racial wealth gap, then isn't the most obvious solution focusing on current federal financial aid programs based on income?

wetwillie

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 19649
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2018, 01:29:24 PM »
It does make sense that white people would be interested in cutting programs that might benefit them in order to keep other groups from benefiting. Same way people in business or other hierarchies often want to create barriers to entry for other people when they find themselves on top.
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 38612
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2018, 01:58:36 PM »
It does make sense that white people would be interested in cutting programs that might benefit them in order to keep other groups from benefiting. Same way people in business or other hierarchies often want to create barriers to entry for other people when they find themselves on top.

yes

Well the excerpt doesn't make it clear what "denied these opportunities" means, but now I understand.  If the theory is that whites disproportionately benefited from low-cost or free education (believable), and that this is the leading cause of a racial wealth gap, then isn't the most obvious solution focusing on current federal financial aid programs based on income?

housing is the other big one. But maybe make aid (for education and housing) more based on overall wealth rather than income? It's kind of already done with education aid, but the wealthy have plenty of federal aid to help them buy property. Disproportionately more than is provided for housing the non-wealthy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/where-we-live/wp/2017/10/11/the-federal-government-spends-more-than-twice-as-much-subsidizing-homeowners-as-it-does-helping-people-avoid-homelessness/?utm_term=.f4464062c95d

Just spitballing.

Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

  • Racist Piece of Shit
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 18387
  • Kiss my ass and suck my dick
    • View Profile
    • I am the one and only Sugar Dick
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2018, 03:55:34 PM »
It's repackaged richard rothstein bullshit based upon a number of patently inaccurate premises.
goEMAW Karmic BBS Shepherd

sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 31525
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2018, 07:26:52 PM »
Quote
New research by Robb Willer, professor of sociology at  Stanford University, and Rachel Wetts, a researcher at the University of California, demonstrates that despite all the ways that government provided welfare programs to help them, white Americans are willing to cut such programs if they believe that African-Americans and other nonwhites may benefit.


https://www.salon.com/2018/08/01/white-americans-support-welfare-programs-but-only-for-themselves-says-new-research/

https://academic.oup.com/sf/advance-article-abstract/doi/10.1093/sf/soy046/5002999

the abstract says "if these programs were portrayed as primarily benefiting minorities, not if they were portrayed as benefiting whites." which is pretty different.
feel the awesome power, the wonderful beauty, of uncontrollable male passion.

bubbles4ksu

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5347
  • Son of Pete
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2018, 08:14:16 AM »
It's repackaged richard rothstein bullshit based upon a number of patently inaccurate premises.
coleman hughes is on the latest sam harris podcast and they take two hours breaking down all of the inaccurate premises piece by piece.  it's a good listen for those who would notice any discrepancy in racial outcomes and scream racism.

Kat Kid

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 15755
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2018, 08:23:14 AM »
The fact that Coleman Hughes is a name we are discussing as an undergrad, should tell you everything you need to know about how oppressed conservative “intellectuals” are and whether or not they truly necessitate a “dark web” because they can’t find a platform.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
@bentren

Kat Kid

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 15755
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2018, 08:24:08 AM »
Also, that quilette history piece has been completely dismantled by actual historians.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
@bentren

bubbles4ksu

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5347
  • Son of Pete
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2018, 09:01:01 AM »
screaming

michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 38612
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2018, 09:18:39 AM »
Haha I will not listen to that

michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 38612
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2018, 09:41:30 AM »
I peeked at Hughes's racial wealth gap piece on quilette and just looking closely at a couple of his claims reveals that he's pretty misleading and terrible.

wetwillie

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 19649
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2018, 11:15:36 AM »
I’m planning on listening to that today and will report back cliffs
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

  • Racist Piece of Shit
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 18387
  • Kiss my ass and suck my dick
    • View Profile
    • I am the one and only Sugar Dick
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2018, 12:43:39 PM »
I don't know who Coleman Hughes or Sam Harris are but I know off the top of my head the premises in that dumbfuck argument are plainly wrong.

Also, lol at the clowns attacking the credibility of those guys while failing to do perfunctory research on the absurdity of the premises in the trash piece linked in the OP.
goEMAW Karmic BBS Shepherd

Dlew12

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 18405
  • #TeamChestHair
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2018, 02:28:56 PM »
Also, that quilette history piece has been completely dismantled by actual historians.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mind posting a link to the criticisms? 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

wetwillie

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 19649
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2018, 02:41:38 PM »
I’m about a half hour in and the hard facts are few and far between.  So far he has cited a few 2008 pew polls indicating a majority of the people of color do not believe their racial background has hindered them in getting into a college of their choosing or in their careers. Also mentioned he believes black people vote Democrat because the optics of voting republican are an endorsement of the fringe racist element of the party.
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

bubbles4ksu

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5347
  • Son of Pete
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2018, 02:45:05 PM »
I’m about a half hour in and the hard facts are few and far between.  So far he has cited a few 2008 pew polls indicating a majority of the people of color do not believe their racial background has hindered them in getting into a college of their choosing or in their careers. Also mentioned he believes black people vote Democrat because the optics of voting republican are an endorsement of the fringe racist element of the party.
i meant to warn that sam's request for podcast support is nails-on-the-chalkboard.  the last thirty minutes has more numbers and stuff.

wetwillie

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 19649
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2018, 02:51:53 PM »
Yea that would be a fun discussion for another thread, I’m hoping it improves but I’ll stick it out regardless.
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Kat Kid

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 15755
    • View Profile
Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2018, 03:09:40 PM »
Also, that quilette history piece has been completely dismantled by actual historians.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mind posting a link to the criticisms?

I can't find the historical one, I think it might have been a twitter thread. But I could probably do enough on my own with this whopper:

Quote
But slavery is hardly the root cause of America’s prosperity. If it were, then we would expect American states that practiced slavery to be richer than those that did not. Yet we see precisely the opposite. The South, where slavery thrived, was “the poorest and most backward region of the country,” according to the economist Thomas Sowell.1 This remains true today.

Where to even begin with this? Yes, the industrial North did much better as industrialization continued to replace the importance of agricultural wealth and the South also lost a decent amount of wealth AS A RESULT OF THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION BECAUSE THE CHATTEL WAS NOW CONSIDERED A FREE PERSON.


This is a rebuttal that seems to pick at some of the bad statistics, but I honestly can't find what I was thinking of.


https://scienceofsocialproblems.wordpress.com/
@bentren