Author Topic: Race in America thread  (Read 3294 times)

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Offline Dlew12

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #50 on: August 03, 2018, 09:30:41 AM »
They weren't fairly compensated for their labor upon being emancipated. Therefore, it's hard to argue their value was reclaimed.

they were able to benefit from a greater portion of the value of their labor.
I'm not entirely sure I'm tracking this argument.  Is Sys saying that freeing the slaves didn't hurt the South's economy?  I agree with a lot of Hughes overall argument (spending habits have a significant effect on wealth), but I do think he cut some corners on his historical references.


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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #51 on: August 03, 2018, 09:33:15 AM »
Is Sys saying that freeing the slaves didn't hurt the South's economy?

correct.
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2018, 09:43:38 AM »
I have no idea what sort of wage a freed slave could aquire. How long would a freed slave have to work to equal their previous value as property?
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Offline catastrophe

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Race in America thread
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2018, 09:45:51 AM »
Setting aside whether the “value” of labor remains the same, I think changing the cost of labor has a pretty significant impact on a labor-based economy.

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2018, 09:48:42 AM »
Seems pretty clear white people should be enslaved for 100 years and then call it even.
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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2018, 09:48:48 AM »
I have no idea what sort of wage a freed slave could aquire. How long would a freed slave have to work to equal their previous value as property?

I think many ended up in more of a feudal serf type relationship where they would keep a portion of what they produced but provide the vast majority to the landowners.

Offline Dlew12

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2018, 09:49:59 AM »


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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2018, 09:58:24 AM »
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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2018, 10:08:28 AM »
It's an interesting topic but sys is arguing something quite a bit different and far more insane.

Whether slavery resulted in a more efficient economy isn't the point.  Southern landowners had already expended significant capital to acquire their labor force (which drove their entire business and most of the southern economy).  Freeing slaves would be the equivalent of taking the machinery out of a manufacturing plant and saying "hey, the machines are just as valuable as they were before, you just have to start renting them now."  The fact that slavery may not have been that profitable overall means the economic impact of emancipation would have been that more significant given the sunk costs. You need profit to grow.

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2018, 10:14:49 AM »
It's an interesting topic but sys is arguing something quite a bit different and far more insane.

Whether slavery resulted in a more efficient economy isn't the point.  Southern landowners had already expended significant capital to acquire their labor force (which drove their entire business and most of the southern economy).  Freeing slaves would be the equivalent of taking the machinery out of a manufacturing plant and saying "hey, the machines are just as valuable as they were before, you just have to start renting them now."  The fact that slavery may not have been that profitable overall means the economic impact of emancipation would have been that more significant given the sunk costs. You need profit to grow.

good god, what a load of drivel.  the economic interest of the slaveholding class is not synonymous with the economy.

 
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2018, 10:16:47 AM »
https://www.economist.com/free-exchange/2013/09/27/did-slavery-make-economic-sense
here's an article about the economics of slavery

good link.

Only a mind completely poisoned by the logic of free market capitalism could argue that “reluctant” slave labor was likely not as productive because it was coercive and did not unleash the forces of innovation because slaves were uninterested in learning new farming techniques? The slaves had quotas enforced by a whip or worse. The article ask again completely ignores the point I’ve been making over and over which is that the forced breeding of slaves produced enormous profits wholly separate from the labor. This was priced in to the price of slaves at market, was regularly a source of profits for slave owners and impossible to account for once the market was made illegal. In addition, the idea that even in the dire conditions of share cropping, workers did not elect to forego selling ALL of their labor in the hopes of enjoying some meager time for leisure seems wrong.  Again, that would be measurable by the GDP,  but the value of the chattel (people) is not priced in as it is an asset.


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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2018, 10:25:28 AM »
There are arguments about how the northern economy benefited from the southern economy and lots of other things being left off the table that we could discuss as well that go to Coleman Hughes thesis, but sys won’t just concede his point so here we are.


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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2018, 10:30:12 AM »
Only a mind completely poisoned by the logic of free market capitalism could argue that “reluctant” slave labor was likely not as productive

 :lol:


the forced breeding of slaves produced enormous profits wholly separate from the labor. This was priced in to the price of slaves at market, was regularly a source of profits for slave owners and impossible to account for once the market was made illegal.

the value of freeborn children is retained by those children rather than appropriated by a slaveowner.  that does not destroy the value of the child.


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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2018, 10:32:45 AM »
There are arguments about how the northern economy benefited from the southern economy and lots of other things being left off the table that we could discuss as well that go to Coleman Hughes thesis, but sys won’t just concede his point so here we are.


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my god, you actually think you've refuted a single assertion i've made.  incredible.
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2018, 10:37:22 AM »
Only a mind completely poisoned by the logic of free market capitalism could argue that “reluctant” slave labor was likely not as productive

 :lol:


the forced breeding of slaves produced enormous profits wholly separate from the labor. This was priced in to the price of slaves at market, was regularly a source of profits for slave owners and impossible to account for once the market was made illegal.

the value of freeborn children is retained by those children rather than appropriated by a slaveowner.  that does not destroy the value of the child.

Pricing the fertility of women to maximize their future potential profits is definitely economic activity that totally happens. The market for people is not like for like with people’s future earning from the fruits of their labor.


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2018, 10:59:09 AM »

good god, what a load of drivel.  the economic interest of the slaveholding class is not synonymous with the economy.

Considering the slaveholding class was the primary source of jobs, it’s pretty close.

I don’t know how else I can explain this. When a region’s economy revolves primarily around a specific resource, a change in the profitability of that resource affects the overall economy.

You’re acting like a change in the cost of labor shouldn’t impact a labor-based economy. Do you know what happens to an oil-based economy when the price of oil changes?

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2018, 11:05:48 AM »
Pricing the fertility of women to maximize their future potential profits is definitely economic activity that totally happens. The market for people is not like for like with people’s future earning from the fruits of their labor.

i've googled around a bit for data on fecundity of african american women during and after slavery and haven't been able to find anything.  if your assertion that they were more fecund during slavery is accurate, then you've finally introduced one factor that would argue for a higher rate of gdp increase in the slave economy than the postwar economy.
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2018, 11:09:27 AM »

good god, what a load of drivel.  the economic interest of the slaveholding class is not synonymous with the economy.

Considering the slaveholding class was the primary source of jobs, it’s pretty close.

I don’t know how else I can explain this. When a region’s economy revolves primarily around a specific resource, a change in the profitability of that resource affects the overall economy.

You’re acting like a change in the cost of labor shouldn’t impact a labor-based economy. Do you know what happens to an oil-based economy when the price of oil changes?

you're only considering the profitability to the slaveholder.  in general when labor costs more, it drives an increase in gdp as the profits of labor are more broadly shared and this drives increased consumption.  huge inequality retards growth and it's hard to imagine a system more unequal than slavery.
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2018, 11:20:53 AM »

good god, what a load of drivel.  the economic interest of the slaveholding class is not synonymous with the economy.

Considering the slaveholding class was the primary source of jobs, it’s pretty close.

I don’t know how else I can explain this. When a region’s economy revolves primarily around a specific resource, a change in the profitability of that resource affects the overall economy.

You’re acting like a change in the cost of labor shouldn’t impact a labor-based economy. Do you know what happens to an oil-based economy when the price of oil changes?

you're only considering the profitability to the slaveholder.  in general when labor costs more, it drives an increase in gdp as the profits of labor are more broadly shared and this drives increased consumption.  huge inequality retards growth and it's hard to imagine a system more unequal than slavery.

Correct, and as the only landowners in an agricultural-based economy, I am viewing the slaveholders as the primary source of jobs.  Profitable companies employ more people, which reduces the available labor force, which increases the price of labor, which increases consumption.  Post Civil-war slavery was a system of tons of available labor and depressed profitability for the main job creators. Not a recipe for success if you want a healthy economy.

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #70 on: August 03, 2018, 11:22:59 AM »
job creators do not create jobs.  demand creates jobs.
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2018, 11:27:16 AM »
job creators do not create jobs.  demand creates jobs.

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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2018, 11:30:44 AM »
Post Civil-war slavery was a system of tons of available labor.

i'm not sure this is actually true, btw.
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2018, 11:37:37 AM »
Post Civil-war slavery was a system of tons of available labor.

i'm not sure this is actually true, btw.

I think this may have something to do with our disconnect.  Before emancipation I'm viewing slaves as capital.  After, they are labor.  So by definition, post-slavery you end up with a massive labor force that didn't exist before.

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2018, 11:42:26 AM »
I think this may have something to do with our disconnect.  Before emancipation I'm viewing slaves as capital.  After, they are labor.  So by definition, post-slavery you end up with a massive labor force that didn't exist before.

well that's the wrong way to think of them.  they were people that were having their labor stolen from them.  they existed.
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