Author Topic: Race in America thread  (Read 2844 times)

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Online Dlew12

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2018, 03:11:36 PM »
I honestly can't find what I was thinking of.
wow how convenient


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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2018, 03:14:13 PM »
I honestly can't find what I was thinking of.
wow how convenient

harder to find free help now than it was in the great American South.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2018, 03:28:13 PM »
I honestly can't find what I was thinking of.
wow how convenient
I mean the link he shared seemed like a pretty decent debunking

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2018, 03:40:55 PM »
I honestly can't find what I was thinking of.
wow how convenient
I mean the link he shared seemed like a pretty decent debunking
i WANTED the link he was REFERRING TO


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Offline wetwillie

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2018, 04:47:09 PM »
That podcast was rough. As you can imagine it was a lot of philosophy from a philosophy major at an Ivy League school.   Was hoping for more facts and stats to oppose the premise of this thread and left sorely disappointed.
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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #30 on: August 02, 2018, 04:48:21 PM »
I can't find the historical one, I think it might have been a twitter thread. But I could probably do enough on my own with this whopper:
Quote
But slavery is hardly the root cause of America’s prosperity. If it were, then we would expect American states that practiced slavery to be richer than those that did not. Yet we see precisely the opposite. The South, where slavery thrived, was “the poorest and most backward region of the country,” according to the economist Thomas Sowell.1 This remains true today.

Where to even begin with this? Yes, the industrial North did much better as industrialization continued to replace the importance of agricultural wealth and the South also lost a decent amount of wealth AS A RESULT OF THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION BECAUSE THE CHATTEL WAS NOW CONSIDERED A FREE PERSON.

that's a really bad argument (freeing enslaved people does not destroy or impair their ability to work, the human capital available in the region is largely unchanged - ignoring migration and people killed/injured in the war, etc.).  the argument you're arguing against is also really bad, but that doesn't excuse you from making a poor argument.

speaking of how bad your argument was, i saw a really cool thing a few days ago about how germany's economic efficiency is at least partly a function of how their capital stock is valued less than is capital stock in peer countries.  like a german company or house is cheaper than the same entity would be in other developed countries.  really interesting.
a poor person never gave anyone a job.  a poor person never gave anybody charity.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #31 on: August 02, 2018, 04:54:53 PM »
I can't find the historical one, I think it might have been a twitter thread. But I could probably do enough on my own with this whopper:
Quote
But slavery is hardly the root cause of America’s prosperity. If it were, then we would expect American states that practiced slavery to be richer than those that did not. Yet we see precisely the opposite. The South, where slavery thrived, was “the poorest and most backward region of the country,” according to the economist Thomas Sowell.1 This remains true today.

Where to even begin with this? Yes, the industrial North did much better as industrialization continued to replace the importance of agricultural wealth and the South also lost a decent amount of wealth AS A RESULT OF THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION BECAUSE THE CHATTEL WAS NOW CONSIDERED A FREE PERSON.

that's a really bad argument (freeing enslaved people does not destroy or impair their ability to work, the human capital available in the region is largely unchanged - ignoring migration and people killed/injured in the war, etc.).  the argument you're arguing against is also really bad, but that doesn't excuse you from making a poor argument.

speaking of how bad your argument was, i saw a really cool thing a few days ago about how germany's economic efficiency is at least partly a function of how their capital stock is valued less than is capital stock in peer countries.  like a german company or house is cheaper than the same entity would be in other developed countries.  really interesting.

The people. They were assets.
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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2018, 05:02:34 PM »
yeah, they're still assets after they're free.  their economic value is unchanged, what is changed is that ownership of their economic value is transferred from a slaveowner to themselves.
a poor person never gave anyone a job.  a poor person never gave anybody charity.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2018, 08:28:48 PM »
I bet the North benefited quite a bit from slavery, too... it limited industrial development in the South and *may* have provided the North with cheaper raw materials than they would have had with a paid southern labor force.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2018, 08:34:45 PM »
yeah, they're still assets after they're free.  their economic value is unchanged, what is changed is that ownership of their economic value is transferred from a slaveowner to themselves.

there were things called markets that bought and sold people. the people themselves were property and a store of value, not just an input of human capital. This market was declared illegal. Further, the idea that the emancipated slaves were able to freely sell their labor in some free market is completely ludicrous.
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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2018, 08:45:37 PM »
i'm aware of what slavery is, katkid.  the value of the work a person can perform does not only exist if it is appropriated by another person.  enslaved peoples were able to retain the value of their labor after attaining freedom, the value didn't disappear.

re. how free they were to sell their labor - no doubt there were inefficiencies and disruptions.  however, slavery itself involves some pretty significant inefficiencies.  just based on theory, i would be surprised if the post slavery economy wasn't more productive than the pre slavery economy.  but that's clearly a question that can be addressed with data.  i'll adjust my opinion on the issue to accord with what the data indicate, if any adjustment is needed.
a poor person never gave anyone a job.  a poor person never gave anybody charity.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2018, 08:53:33 PM »
i'm aware of what slavery is, katkid.  the value of the work a person can perform does not only exist if it is appropriated by another person.  enslaved peoples were able to retain the value of their labor after attaining freedom, the value didn't disappear.

re. how free they were to sell their labor - no doubt there were inefficiencies and disruptions.  however, slavery itself involves some pretty significant inefficiencies.  just based on theory, i would be surprised if the post slavery economy wasn't more productive than the pre slavery economy.  but that's clearly a question that can be addressed with data.  i'll adjust my opinion on the issue to accord with what the data indicate, if any adjustment is needed.

you are beyond help
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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2018, 09:04:09 PM »
I feel like an analogy could be drawn here to the difference between stock in a public corporation and a private company.  Theoretically, if you have two companies (one public, one private) that are otherwise identical, the value of their shares should be viewed the same (sys).  However, in reality the nature of the ownership drastically changes the value of the shares because who controls the resources turns out to be a pretty big deal (kat kid).  And of course, the companies with less marketable shares tend to become less profitable overall.

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2018, 09:15:41 PM »
you are beyond help

i feel the same way.  how you can fail to understand something so basic is beyond me.
a poor person never gave anyone a job.  a poor person never gave anybody charity.

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2018, 09:18:20 PM »
of course, the companies with less marketable shares tend to become less profitable overall.

no.  unless the company requires access to capital and the higher valuation allows them access to cheaper capital.
a poor person never gave anyone a job.  a poor person never gave anybody charity.

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2018, 10:30:40 PM »
You guys can’t imagine how much wealth building ass I’ve kicked because of the GI bill, FHA, and Va mortgages
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2018, 11:06:48 PM »
of course, the companies with less marketable shares tend to become less profitable overall.

no.  unless the company requires access to capital and the higher valuation allows them access to cheaper capital.

Well since you just described every company, I'm not sure why you said "no."

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2018, 11:23:06 PM »
it doesn't describe every company, not even close.

aside from that, your statement seemed to me to be implying that something about having a high valuation was intrinsically advantageous - which is not accurate. 
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2018, 06:58:02 AM »
sys, your theory of human capital/labor has no distinction at all for the market conditions that labor must negotiate to sell their labor?
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Race in America thread
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2018, 08:39:53 AM »
it doesn't describe every company, not even close.

aside from that, your statement seemed to me to be implying that something about having a high valuation was intrinsically advantageous - which is not accurate.

Ok I’m not talking about an LLC someone might use for their Etsy account. The analogy is about public companies and private companies that are otherwise identical.

Although you are correct about profitability. I meant to speak in terms of valuation. Not really the point of the analogy though.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #45 on: August 03, 2018, 08:50:33 AM »
this is a bit of a mess, but I discussed this more elsewhere and thought it might help if others care.

assets aren't included in GDP, the "market" for chattel was made illegal and a new separate market was created that was nearly as exploitative for the ability of emancipated slaves to sell their labor. GDP measures production/spending/outputs, not assets, slaves were property and a store of value completely separate from being an input, there were markets where they were traded, those markets became illegal and thus their "value" to the exploitative class was lost. for instance, female slaves that were fertile commanded a higher price as they could provide more property to sell. how is that ever realized in sys' view that the "human capital" the labor production (work of slaves e.g.--picking cotton) was transferred from owner to slave upon emancipation? Never mind, the insanity of claiming that the market that emancipated slaves entered was not completely rough ridin' rigged when they tried to sell their labor.

I was waiting to get to the part were there was this whole thing called the "great migration" that helps explain a lot of what coleman hughes completely ignores.
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Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #46 on: August 03, 2018, 09:06:15 AM »
sys, your theory of human capital/labor has no distinction at all for the market conditions that labor must negotiate to sell their labor?

i don't know what you're driving at, but the value of an hour of labor is the same regardless of who benefits from that labor. 
a poor person never gave anyone a job.  a poor person never gave anybody charity.

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #47 on: August 03, 2018, 09:12:39 AM »
slaves were property and a store of value completely separate from being an input, there were markets where they were traded, those markets became illegal and thus their "value" to the exploitative class was lost.

the value was not lost.  the value (the sum of their future work) was reclaimed from their former owners by each person that had formerly been enslaved.


the insanity of claiming that the market that emancipated slaves entered was not completely rough ridin' rigged when they tried to sell their labor.

the labor market was a good deal more rigged when they were enslaved.
a poor person never gave anyone a job.  a poor person never gave anybody charity.

Offline bucket

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #48 on: August 03, 2018, 09:19:13 AM »
slaves were property and a store of value completely separate from being an input, there were markets where they were traded, those markets became illegal and thus their "value" to the exploitative class was lost.

the value was not lost.  the value (the sum of their future work) was reclaimed from their former owners by each person that had formerly been enslaved.

They weren't fairly compensated for their labor upon being emancipated. Therefore, it's hard to argue their value was reclaimed.

Offline sys

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Re: Race in America thread
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2018, 09:24:30 AM »
They weren't fairly compensated for their labor upon being emancipated. Therefore, it's hard to argue their value was reclaimed.

they were able to benefit from a greater portion of the value of their labor.
a poor person never gave anyone a job.  a poor person never gave anybody charity.