LHC Bill Snyder saved Kansas State University

[Ihaveteeth]

The least attractive job in P5 is Kansas and that is not particularly close.  Terrible facilities, very little history of success, and it hardly pays what most D1 coordinators make.

Also, Herman was a great get for UT.  LSU wanted him and he clearly preferred the UT gig.  SEC west hires of Orgeron and Morris in the past couple of years are hardly impressive.  They both could work out but neither are big names.  Of course Jimbo was a good get.  The SEC east coach hires are pretty lol-worthy.  Georgia is looking good, Florida finally made a hire that seems capable, and the next best coach maybe the result of the Tennessee dumpster fire.

Your "following a legend" stats of teams that have won National Championships in the past 20 years and one that thinks it has don't mean a whole lot.  Of course there are some additional challenges, but K-State is hardly Conference Championship or bust.

My initial thought was that KU is more attractive due to the fact that a coach could win 6 games in three years and get an extension with a raise, but you're probably right.  I'm assuming both schools will be looking for a new coach after next year, and I would expect KSU to be able to land the better coach, particularly given what a mess their AD is.

We're pretty much splitting hairs, though.  KSU is a top 50 job in general.  The rift that has been allowed to fester between team OBZ and team anyone but Sean is a very real issue that needs to be nipped in the bud if it's not going to be Sean. 

Norm Stewart's situation was a black cloud over Mizzou basketball for two decades that didn't end until the blue heads finally got their way and Kim Anderson was given the keys.  Only after three years of KU-football level disaster did the argument finally get settled.  Hopefully KSU football doesn't need to go through that garbage, but that's the road you're on right now. 

Letting Bill force your hand is a terrible strategy.  Either let Sean coach or tell Bill that the program can't afford to wait around every offseason while he decides whether or not he wants to return the following year.  That benefits nobody.  If Sean isn't the guy, make your best offer to BV and go from there.  Waiting around with a lame duck head coach is the worst course of action.

Mizzou got stuck holding the bag in football and had no choice other than to promote our DC to head coach.  That was a disaster (although he's done a remarkable job of pulling out of the tailspin) that could have been avoided had there been competent leadership in place at the time.  Instead, we stood around and got caught holding our dicks when Pinkel decided to bail.

[Ihaveteeth]

I don't know who we'll eventually hire but I do know that we'll do better than Memphis' defensive coordinator.

I'm not sure what the natural recruiting advantages we don't have but I'm guessing schools outside of California and a couple of southern states have the same disadvantages.

And GTFOOMF with being in the Big 12 as a disadvantage to hiring a good coach. Look at the recent hires in the SEC and the Big 12 and the coaching advantages aren't even close. The second worst job in the Big 12 hired one of the most sought after names on last year's carousel. The SEC only hires within itself or coordinators from the AAC.

Also only a low confidence loser would be afraid to follow LHC LHC LHC LHC LHC Bill Snyder, or any other man.

Mizzou, my god

Mizzou hired Mizzou's defensive coordinator.  It was a clown show, and I said as much previously.  It may wind up working out, but if it does then it's because we got lucky.  There was certainly no discernible strategy other than to step on our own dicks at every opportunity.  I wouldn't recommend following that blueprint.

I don't know what you're getting at as far as the SEC hires go.  LSU hired the Oklahoma State coach and won a national title.  Auburn hired the Iowa State head coach and won a national title.  Arkansas hired a coach who had been to three straight Rose Bowls and failed.  aTm just hired the Florida State head coach who had just won a national title a few years ago.  Oklahoma just promoted a coordinator, and Texas has become a revolving door of mid major hires.  If Matt Rhule is your gold standard, I really don't know where you're going with this.  The SEC has made plenty of terrible hires, but there have been plenty of power moves.  I honestly can't think of a Big 12 team ever making a splash hire.  Maybe it's happened and I just don't remember.

Following legends hasn't worked at USC, Nebraska, Florida, Ohio State, Tennessee, Notre Dame, Michigan, etc.  I don't know that coaches will be afraid of it per se, but it's a negative to be sure.

I don't know why you included these schools. These schools fall in 1 of 2 categories: The "Your 9/10 win seasons aren't good enough for us" (Nubbs w/ Solich and Pelini, tOSU with oscar/Cooper) or went with the wrong guy(s) for a few years and fell flat on our faces (ND and Michigan) and then got right back to being fine. I don't think it's a legend following problems as much as fans get messed up expectations, or they hire literally the wrong guy.

That's exactly my point.  When you follow a legend and you suck, you get fired...and if you do really well, you still get fired.

So like, it doesn't matter anyways? You suck you'd be fired regardless of who you follow, and if you are too stupid to not be happy with 9/10 seasons, you clearly don't pay attention to how CFB in the long run works.

Guys like Solich and Pelini didn't suck, though.  They were good coaches who won a ton of games and then got fired for not being Osborne.  Nobody is going to win at Nebraska like Osborne did, and nobody is going to win at KSU like Snyder did.  Nebraska will be really fortunate to find a coach who wins at the level of Solich or Pelini, and KSU will be really fortunate to find a coach who wins at the level Snyder 2.0.  2.0 has 73 wins and counting.  I'll take the under on the next two coaches at KSU having that many wins combined. 

For all the complaining about the current "mediocrity" of the program, it takes a really good coach to win 8 games in a season in Manhattan. Snyder 2.0 is a bowl game win away from doing that for the sixth time in the past 7 seasons.  If Matt Campbell does that in Ames, they'll build a statue of him that will eventually be washed away in a flood.

[DQ12]

For all the complaining about the current "mediocrity" of the program, it takes a really good coach to win 8 games in a season in Manhattan. Snyder 2.0 is a bowl game win away from doing that for the sixth time in the past 7 seasons.  If Matt Campbell does that in Ames, they'll build a statue of him that will eventually be washed away in a flood.

This is the type of condescending bullshit we're talking about.

No.  It really doesn't take a worldbeater to win 8 games a year at K-State, or anywhere.  Have a winning conference record and win your OOC games.  There, you've won 8 games.  Or, hell, win your OOC games and go 4-5 in conference and win the heart of dallas bowl.  Boom, 8 wins.

That's not to say 8 win seasons suck.  They don't.  But treating 8 wins like it's some great accomplishment is ridiculous.  It's a nice season.  But the goal of every P5 program should be to compete for conference championships.  At K-State, I think it's reasonable to expect to be a serious title contender every four years or so.  8 wins doesn't get you there.

[pissclams]

mizzou has absolutely zero history in football or basketball wtf are you debating with his downgraded ass

[ben ji]

I don't know who we'll eventually hire but I do know that we'll do better than Memphis' defensive coordinator.

I'm not sure what the natural recruiting advantages we don't have but I'm guessing schools outside of California and a couple of southern states have the same disadvantages.

And GTFOOMF with being in the Big 12 as a disadvantage to hiring a good coach. Look at the recent hires in the SEC and the Big 12 and the coaching advantages aren't even close. The second worst job in the Big 12 hired one of the most sought after names on last year's carousel. The SEC only hires within itself or coordinators from the AAC.

Also only a low confidence loser would be afraid to follow LHC LHC LHC LHC LHC Bill Snyder, or any other man.

Mizzou, my god

Mizzou hired Mizzou's defensive coordinator.  It was a clown show, and I said as much previously.  It may wind up working out, but if it does then it's because we got lucky.  There was certainly no discernible strategy other than to step on our own dicks at every opportunity.  I wouldn't recommend following that blueprint.

I don't know what you're getting at as far as the SEC hires go.  LSU hired the Oklahoma State coach and won a national title.  Auburn hired the Iowa State head coach and won a national title.  Arkansas hired a coach who had been to three straight Rose Bowls and failed.  aTm just hired the Florida State head coach who had just won a national title a few years ago.  Oklahoma just promoted a coordinator, and Texas has become a revolving door of mid major hires.  If Matt Rhule is your gold standard, I really don't know where you're going with this.  The SEC has made plenty of terrible hires, but there have been plenty of power moves.  I honestly can't think of a Big 12 team ever making a splash hire.  Maybe it's happened and I just don't remember.

Following legends hasn't worked at USC, Nebraska, Florida, Ohio State, Tennessee, Notre Dame, Michigan, etc.  I don't know that coaches will be afraid of it per se, but it's a negative to be sure.

I don't know why you included these schools. These schools fall in 1 of 2 categories: The "Your 9/10 win seasons aren't good enough for us" (Nubbs w/ Solich and Pelini, tOSU with oscar/Cooper) or went with the wrong guy(s) for a few years and fell flat on our faces (ND and Michigan) and then got right back to being fine. I don't think it's a legend following problems as much as fans get messed up expectations, or they hire literally the wrong guy.

That's exactly my point.  When you follow a legend and you suck, you get fired...and if you do really well, you still get fired.

So like, it doesn't matter anyways? You suck you'd be fired regardless of who you follow, and if you are too stupid to not be happy with 9/10 seasons, you clearly don't pay attention to how CFB in the long run works.

Guys like Solich and Pelini didn't suck, though.  They were good coaches who won a ton of games and then got fired for not being Osborne.  Nobody is going to win at Nebraska like Osborne did, and nobody is going to win at KSU like Snyder did.  Nebraska will be really fortunate to find a coach who wins at the level of Solich or Pelini, and KSU will be really fortunate to find a coach who wins at the level Snyder 2.0. 2.0 has 73 wins and counting.  I'll take the under on the next two coaches at KSU having that many wins combined. 

For all the complaining about the current "mediocrity" of the program, it takes a really good coach to win 8 games in a season in Manhattan. Snyder 2.0 is a bowl game win away from doing that for the sixth time in the past 7 seasons.  If Matt Campbell does that in Ames, they'll build a statue of him that will eventually be washed away in a flood.

You think we would be fortunate to find a coach to win 8.1 games per season? Gene Taylor could spin his rolodex and randomly find a coach to do that.

[michigancat]

Florida, Florida State, LSU, and Ohio State all won national titles less than five years after replacing legendary coaches. And Penn State is better than they were under Paterno's last few years plus they had the whole pedophilia thing.

[Ihaveteeth]

Florida, Florida State, LSU, and Ohio State all won national titles less than five years after replacing legendary coaches. And Penn State is better than they were under Paterno's last few years plus they had the whole pedophilia thing.

Yep.  Florida State gave the reins to their HCIW (see Snyder, S.). Saban wasn't a legend at LSU...just a really good coach for 4 years.  The rest had established good/great coaches come after the successor to the legend flamed out.  KSU isn't going to hire a James Franklin, Jim Harbaugh, or Urban Meyer.  If Bob Stoops decides he wants the job, the by all means...hire him.  The reality of college sports is that coaches following legends have historically been fired even in the rare instances when they've done a good job.  crap...Kansas fans were ready to sack Bill Self after 3 seasons.

[CHONGS]

There are 65 power find teams (once you include ND). Is being top 50 really all that of an achievement?

[Pete]

Well, when you put it that way, no.

[Pete]

I guess “top 50” is another way of saying “better than the worst 3 teams from each P5 conference.” 

[420seriouscat69]

We've been a fringe top 25 team since Snyder came back, but I don't get this Pete meltdown. He calmed the waters a bit and as long as we stay a P5 school, anything is possible. If Sean takes over, it will be mediocrity at best, but man, I love bowl games!

[michigancat]

Florida, Florida State, LSU, and Ohio State all won national titles less than five years after replacing legendary coaches. And Penn State is better than they were under Paterno's last few years plus they had the whole pedophilia thing.

Yep.  Florida State gave the reins to their HCIW (see Snyder, S.). Saban wasn't a legend at LSU...just a really good coach for 4 years.  The rest had established good/great coaches come after the successor to the legend flamed out.  KSU isn't going to hire a James Franklin, Jim Harbaugh, or Urban Meyer.  If Bob Stoops decides he wants the job, the by all means...hire him.  The reality of college sports is that coaches following legends have historically been fired even in the rare instances when they've done a good job.  crap...Kansas fans were ready to sack Bill Self after 3 seasons.

Yeah so what you're saying is the coach you hire matters more than whether or not they follow a legend

Also Meyer coached at Utah and Harbaugh coached at San Diego and Franklin coached at Vandy so yes KSU could hire someone like that. (Just earlier in their career)

[Pete]

We've been a fringe top 25 team since Snyder come back, but I don't get this Pete meltdown. He calmed the waters a bit and as long as we stay a P5 school, anything is possible. If Sean takes over, it will be mediocrity at best, but man, I love bowl games!

Meltdown?  I’d have to give a eff to meltdown.

[catastrophe]

There are 65 power find teams (once you include ND). Is being top 50 really all that of an achievement?

Not much of an achievement, but don’t forget there are plenty of G5 jobs that are better than P5 ones.

[Ihaveteeth]

Florida, Florida State, LSU, and Ohio State all won national titles less than five years after replacing legendary coaches. And Penn State is better than they were under Paterno's last few years plus they had the whole pedophilia thing.

Yep.  Florida State gave the reins to their HCIW (see Snyder, S.). Saban wasn't a legend at LSU...just a really good coach for 4 years.  The rest had established good/great coaches come after the successor to the legend flamed out.  KSU isn't going to hire a James Franklin, Jim Harbaugh, or Urban Meyer.  If Bob Stoops decides he wants the job, the by all means...hire him.  The reality of college sports is that coaches following legends have historically been fired even in the rare instances when they've done a good job.  crap...Kansas fans were ready to sack Bill Self after 3 seasons.

Yeah so what you're saying is the coach you hire matters more than whether or not they follow a legend

Also Meyer coached at Utah and Harbaugh coached at San Diego and Franklin coached at Vandy so yes KSU could hire someone like that. (Just earlier in their career)

I can't believe everyone wants to take something this simple and make it complicated.  Of course KSU can hire a relatively unknown coach who turns out to be good.  What makes things difficult is that a coach who follows a legend is going to have to have more success at that school in order to get a fair shake than he would at a similar school where he wasn't replacing a legend.  Expectations simply get out of whack, and the new coach becomes a victim of his predecessor's success.  Hell, Snyder 2.0 is a victim of his own success and is being unfairly criticized.

Don't believe me?  The two overarching criticisms on this board are that he 1. doesn't recruit worth a damn and 2. didn't compete for a conference title this season despite a bunch of returning talent.  Which is it?  Either he doesn't recruit talented players, or he shouldn't be expected to compete for a conference title given the returning talent.  It can't really be both, can it?

If KSU wins in the bowl game, Snyder will have averaged 8 wins a season over the life of the outgoing senior class.  That should never get a coach pushed out the door at a school like KSU.  Your peer schools are teams like Kansas, Iowa State, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Missouri, and Iowa.  None of those schools should ever fire a coach who consistently wins 8+ games a year.  It's rarely a good idea for even the power schools as evidenced by Tennessee, Texas, LSU, Nebraska, etc. 

Coaches who consistently win 8+ games at non elite schools leave for elite schools more often than not.  Bill is an anomaly.  Hell, Gary Pinkel is an anomaly, and he regrets not taking the Michigan job when it was offered.  No up and coming coach is going to take a job at a non power school where an 8 win season is considered mediocre and there is a large faction who is pissed that your last name isn't Snyder.  (The obvious possible exception is Venables, and I've repeatedly said that if he's the guy, it's way past time to loudly and definitively declare that Sean is not going to be the next coach.)

The longer you lead on Team Sean, the more likely you are to wind up with a circus on your hands if it isn't him.  Missouri had a circus and had to settle for Odom because he was the only guy who would take the job.  Tennessee just did the same thing.  LSU just did the same thing.  Nebraska's done it multiple times.  Texas did it after Mack Brown.  For the non EMAW crowd, there are a ton of generic schools that look just like KSU that don't come with all that baggage.

[michigancat]

I can't believe everyone wants to take something this simple and make it complicated.

lol

[Cire]

If you care about anyone reading your crap posts you are going to have to be more succinct chief.


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[bones129]

I can't believe everyone wants to take something this simple and make it complicated.

lol

Saw it, didn't read it. Looked too complicated.

[The Big Train]

Yeah those 7 paragraph posts are not gonna get read by me or many others

[catastrophe]

He’s explaining how simple it is.

[PIPE]

I don't read long posts so..............what is going on in this thread?

[purplehaze]

The two overarching criticisms on this board are that he 1. doesn't recruit worth a damn and 2. didn't compete for a conference title this season despite a bunch of returning talent.  Which is it?  Either he doesn't recruit talented players, or he shouldn't be expected to compete for a conference title given the returning talent.  It can't really be both, can it?
 

Actually a fair point



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[Whisker Biscuit]

The two overarching criticisms on this board are that he 1. doesn't recruit worth a damn and 2. didn't compete for a conference title this season despite a bunch of returning talent.  Which is it?  Either he doesn't recruit talented players, or he shouldn't be expected to compete for a conference title given the returning talent.  It can't really be both, can it?
 

Actually a fair point



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He just doesn't understand this board.  Logic is optional.  He'll learn.

[MakeItRain]

There are 65 power find teams (once you include ND). Is being top 50 really all that of an achievement?

No it isn't. I put top 50 so the conversation wouldn't get lost in the ancillary point about our place in college football. I guess even that was too ambitious for pete and his mizzou buddy.

[MakeItRain]

The two overarching criticisms on this board are that he 1. doesn't recruit worth a damn and 2. didn't compete for a conference title this season despite a bunch of returning talent.  Which is it?  Either he doesn't recruit talented players, or he shouldn't be expected to compete for a conference title given the returning talent.  It can't really be both, can it?
 

Actually a fair point



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Not really. First of all, I can't point to a single poster that follows that exact logic trail. Secondly, it can absolutely be both, no one has questioned the staffs ability to develop talent. There is no doubt that our recruiting could be better, we are routinely last, or near last, in the P5 with some Go5 out ranking us. All that being said, this is the first time that we were significantly worse than what was expected, people have reason to think that the staff is slipping in development of the players we're bringing in.