Kids

[mocat]

A lot of millennial parents have kids old enough to drive golf carts down the street

- Cire

[steve dave]

I mean....yes?


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[sys]

Look, I will be completely honest here. I was not a very good kid in HS in terms of law following. I think forgiveness and redemption is a lot better than tossing everyone out on the trash heap.

yes.

[michigancat]

Look, I will be completely honest here. I was not a very good kid in HS in terms of law following. I think forgiveness and redemption is a lot better than tossing everyone out on the trash heap. But it is complicated.

Yeah I agree with that 100%.

[Spracne]

Glad we have reached a consensus on the issue. Now, let's turn our attention to whether Millennials' kids are old enough to drive golf carts down the street.

[MakeItRain]

Look, I will be completely honest here. I was not a very good kid in HS in terms of law following. I think forgiveness and redemption is a lot better than tossing everyone out on the trash heap. But it is complicated.

I agree with this and I agree with your point about law enforcement, but the conversation wasn't about whether or not schools should expel kids for doing something away from school, but some of you were very absolute about schools doing nothing, the word nothing was used multiple times.

I can think of a billion things a kid can do outside of school that merits punishment at school. My senior year this meathead football player, wrestler, and thrower broke into the house of another girl on the track team and raped her. Do you think he had the right to go back to school after that and sit in classes with her while the wheels of justice turn? Doesn't her right to feel safe trump whatever we want to say about second chances, etc?

Same thing with the heil hitler salute example, outside of the scope of the law. Sure most kids at Manhattan High School have no reason to feel the least bit threatened by that salute, but what about the kids that do? Don't the Jewish kids and the kids of color have the right to feel safe at their classes? They're just supposed to walk past these kids like nothing happened, without repercussion? Another thing to, as far as the school goes. Let's say one of these kids caught doing that stomps out an Asian kid a week later. You gonna feel great about protecting the liberty of a 15 year old doing something they absolutely know is wrong, when the Asian kid is now has her jaw wired shut and she has 3 broken ribs? You just lost your job, got a kid maimed, ended up on the news, and got sued, for what? Protecting a high school kid who did something that they should have and likely did know what they did was very wrong.

Being a teenager shouldn't absolve you from consequences, that's a very dangerous precedence. Often the best or only vehicle for those consequences is through school or extra-curricular activities.

[MakeItRain]

Calling the school to deal with stuff that happened outside of school on IG is a big part of the reason why those crap head kids were up to that nonsense in the first place.

Yep. Thinking through the dumb ignorant stuff I did as a kid, I’m not sure how you respond to that level of scrutiny without falling into a clique that just perpetuates more of the same behavior.

They were doing the Hitler salute on IG. Getting called out for that isn't some insane level of scrutiny.

Right, dude acting like that is the same as reaching through the bottom of the vending machine to steal funyuns. I don't give a eff if it was at school, at home, or at Mars. The Jewish students, the students of color, deserve to feel safe while at school. If a potential school shooter put clues on insta but he's in his bedroom, y'all just going to ignore that too?

Are you familiar with the Streisand effect?

Yeah, I am. It's a way for people, usually those of privilege, to evade any consequence for an irresponsible act. I usually hear that from the law and order for them but not us law abiding people, sect.

Cracking down on someone who does something aggressively bigoted and threatening only is a threat to others planning on being aggressively bigoted and threatening.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

I’m struggling with this bc when I was a teenager I said and did a lot of dumb crap for shock value and because I was an idiot and thought I was edgy. Not heiling or spouting racist rhetoric or anything like that, but stuff that was definitely crass and in poor taste. And if I would have gotten expelled from school for it I’m pretty sure that would have ruined my future. I dunno, maybe I would have deserved it.

Then again, I think it’s fair to say that there are plenty of teenagers out there who truly do have hate/anger/violence in their hearts and are a legit threat to the safety and well-being of their classmates.

I guess what I’m saying it, I’m not sure there is a one size fits all approach that is equitable. I think it depends on the case

[_33]

The problem schools have taking things case by case is that they need to be able to point to a black and white policy or they open themselves up to all kinds of nonsense from dipshit parents.

[catastrophe]

Calling the school to deal with stuff that happened outside of school on IG is a big part of the reason why those crap head kids were up to that nonsense in the first place.

Yep. Thinking through the dumb ignorant stuff I did as a kid, I’m not sure how you respond to that level of scrutiny without falling into a clique that just perpetuates more of the same behavior.

They were doing the Hitler salute on IG. Getting called out for that isn't some insane level of scrutiny.

Right, dude acting like that is the same as reaching through the bottom of the vending machine to steal funyuns. I don't give a eff if it was at school, at home, or at Mars. The Jewish students, the students of color, deserve to feel safe while at school. If a potential school shooter put clues on insta but he's in his bedroom, y'all just going to ignore that too?

Are you familiar with the Streisand effect?

Yeah, I am. It's a way for people, usually those of privilege, to evade any consequence for an irresponsible act. I usually hear that from the law and order for them but not us law abiding people, sect.

Cracking down on someone who does something aggressively bigoted and threatening only is a threat to others planning on being aggressively bigoted and threatening.

So in your world, Jewish students would feel more safe when the school makes an announcement saying: hey we think we spotted some white supremacists on IG who go here but no worries we gave them a stern talking to so you’ll probably be ok.

Or do you think a Nazi salute caught on camera should mean no education?

Separately, the privilege point kind of baffles me. I think my privilege helped me escape a number of stupid things I could have easily gotten dinged for, and allowing me the space to figure those out for myself has helped me be far more successful for it. It sounds like you’re suggesting the goal shouldn’t be to show that kind of grace to everyone but to “zero tolerance” all their asses.

[michigancat]

I don't know if either MiR or catastrophe understand what the Streisand Effect is.

Also I don't think anyone wants these kids expelled!

[sys]

It sounds like you’re suggesting the goal shouldn’t be to show that kind of grace to everyone but to “zero tolerance” all their asses.

this is a big problem with the way a lot of "privilege" discourse seems to shake out.  i don't think that is necessarily what is meant, but it is frequently the impression given.

[DQ12]

are kids like, a lot of work and stuff?

Nothing imminent.

[MakeItRain]

The problem schools have taking things case by case is that they need to be able to point to a black and white policy or they open themselves up to all kinds of nonsense from dipshit parents.

Dipshit parents can't be the standard, anyone who has had to work with parents know that they can and will dispense nonsense for any and everything. The line seems very simple to me. Did the act of this student directly harm other students or did the act have potential to directly harm other students? If the answer is yes, then act, if not, then don't.

[MakeItRain]

Calling the school to deal with stuff that happened outside of school on IG is a big part of the reason why those crap head kids were up to that nonsense in the first place.

Yep. Thinking through the dumb ignorant stuff I did as a kid, I’m not sure how you respond to that level of scrutiny without falling into a clique that just perpetuates more of the same behavior.

They were doing the Hitler salute on IG. Getting called out for that isn't some insane level of scrutiny.

Right, dude acting like that is the same as reaching through the bottom of the vending machine to steal funyuns. I don't give a eff if it was at school, at home, or at Mars. The Jewish students, the students of color, deserve to feel safe while at school. If a potential school shooter put clues on insta but he's in his bedroom, y'all just going to ignore that too?

Are you familiar with the Streisand effect?

Yeah, I am. It's a way for people, usually those of privilege, to evade any consequence for an irresponsible act. I usually hear that from the law and order for them but not us law abiding people, sect.

Cracking down on someone who does something aggressively bigoted and threatening only is a threat to others planning on being aggressively bigoted and threatening.

So in your world, Jewish students would feel more safe when the school makes an announcement saying: hey we think we spotted some white supremacists on IG who go here but no worries we gave them a stern talking to so you’ll probably be ok.

Or do you think a Nazi salute caught on camera should mean no education?

Separately, the privilege point kind of baffles me. I think my privilege helped me escape a number of stupid things I could have easily gotten dinged for, and allowing me the space to figure those out for myself has helped me be far more successful for it. It sounds like you’re suggesting the goal shouldn’t be to show that kind of grace to everyone but to “zero tolerance” all their asses.

Yes, the students of color would feel much better about where they are going to school and who they are going to school with if they knew that people would face consequences for using imagery calling to genocide and currently co-opted as a symbol of hate and intimidation of all people of color. Are you really that detached from the concept of having your well being threatened to understand that?

You're just not being intellectually honest by using the zero tolerance phrase. No one has mentioned that, or even hinted at it.

Even the sentence in which you discuss privilege drips with it. You think any consequence equates to giving no grace and represents zero tolerance. You either haven't thought about, can't conceptualize, or don't care about the need of the aggrieved when figuring out what the consequence is for making a nazi salute. That isn't a victimless act and the people harmed by it has every single right to not have their safety threatened because someone thinks making nazi salutes is just kids being kids and that should be looked at the same way as skipping school to go to the lake.

[MakeItRain]

I don't know if either MiR or catastrophe understand what the Streisand Effect is.

Also I don't think anyone wants these kids expelled!

lol, I know exactly what it is, even if I didn't I would have looked it up before I addressed it. I don't know why cat brought it up, it doesn't apply here at all. I thought he was going to say "well if you punish someone for making nazi salutes, then you have to punish someone for making a raised fist." I was just waiting for that to come.

It sounds like you’re suggesting the goal shouldn’t be to show that kind of grace to everyone but to “zero tolerance” all their asses.

this is a big problem with the way a lot of "privilege" discourse seems to shake out.  i don't think that is necessarily what is meant, but it is frequently the impression given.

Again, I'm going to reject the zero tolerance angle of anything I said about this. However, I do think the subject and privilege and zero tolerance can be broached. Zero tolerance is very unevenly applied, and obviously those with the most privilege usually get that argument to stick when it comes to shirking responsibility. That kid making a nazi salute is more likely to get the that's kids just being kids and we need to allow grace to make mistake argument that a kid who uses the notes app to say something to the effect of "Chaz was being a racist to my sister in the hall yesterday and I'm going to eff him up when I see him tomorrow."

[catastrophe]

Well I’m confused about your position on a few points then. So let’s clear them up.

1. You believe that posting a pic on IG doing a Nazi salute either has the potential to directly harm other students?

2. You think that despite the potential to directly harm other students, the offenders should remain in school and not face “zero tolerance” type consequences.

3. You think Jewish students will actually feel safer at the school after being told that the school perceives a potential threat to their safety, but has decided to allow the offenders to remain at the school.

Is that all accurate? And what even is the non-zero-tolerance action the school should take here?

[catastrophe]

I don't know if either MiR or catastrophe understand what the Streisand Effect is.

Also I don't think anyone wants these kids expelled!

I’m actually surprised it wasn’t obvious. By making a show of speech happening off school grounds (for the sake of stopping it), the school is necessarily amplifying that speech and making it heard to students who otherwise would be unaware.

Then, by categorizing it as essentially hate speech (regardless of whatever the actual context was—in Mich’s example we don’t know, in MIR’s example we don’t care) you’re basically telling kids they SHOULD be afraid.

And THEN, despite all those premises, you’re still allowing those students on campus. Because it sounds like no one thinks they should actually be booted.

[MakeItRain]

I think I'm done here. I'll just leave it that I'm genuinely stunned that someone actually thinks that Jewish people and people of color wouldn't perceive someone making a Nazi salute as a threatening, aggressive, hostile act.

I'm not going to say that's a troll, but it seems like such an amazing lack of perspective that the take feels insincere.

[Cire]

There's a lot of instances where a kid being a complete shlthead is no business of the school.

There's other instances where a kid being a complete shlthead DOES impact the school/school day.  I'd say blatant bigotry/racism would most likely fall under the second.

Same with internet harassment/bullying.

I think it's definitely a case by case basis. 

[yoga-like_abana]

daughter 3 likes to wave to people in the backseat when the windows are down. can't wait to show her how to get semis to honk when the opportunity arises.

[Kat Kid]

After thinking about it--

I would bring in the kids with their parents in and make clear how their actions had affected kids/normal operation of the school and that to the extent that continued there would be consequences, would outline the school policies on hate speech/gestures etc and make clear that any future reports/incidents in light of the previous incident would be considered repeated and would escalate the consequences.

I don't know what consequences one isolated incident off-campus could or should lead to, but I would make sure it was crystal clear that it was unacceptable and not endorsed by the school and that any further actions would be dealt with harshly.

[Cire]

After thinking about it--

I would bring in the kids with their parents in and make clear how their actions had affected kids/normal operation of the school and that to the extent that continued there would be consequences, would outline the school policies on hate speech/gestures etc and make clear that any future reports/incidents in light of the previous incident would be considered repeated and would escalate the consequences.

I don't know what consequences one isolated incident off-campus could or should lead to, but I would make sure it was crystal clear that it was unacceptable and not endorsed by the school and that any further actions would be dealt with harshly.

To me this is perfectly appropriate.

[catastrophe]

I think I'm done here. I'll just leave it that I'm genuinely stunned that someone actually thinks that Jewish people and people of color wouldn't perceive someone making a Nazi salute as a threatening, aggressive, hostile act.

I'm not going to say that's a troll, but it seems like such an amazing lack of perspective that the take feels insincere.

*kicks over strawman on the way out*

[michigancat]

I don't know if either MiR or catastrophe understand what the Streisand Effect is.

Also I don't think anyone wants these kids expelled!

I'm actually surprised it wasn't obvious. By making a show of speech happening off school grounds (for the sake of stopping it), the school is necessarily amplifying that speech and making it heard to students who otherwise would be unaware.

The reason the Streisand Effect doesn't apply here is because the students were amplifying this on IG all weekend because they want their perfect little liberal haven to realize there are shitbags in the community.

To give more context, these are juniors, white (duh), and varsity athletes and there have been multiple instances of racism in and out of school that made students feel uncomfortable/threatened. In light of this the Principal explicitly asked for examples like this to be shared with him. His response in the parent newsletter was basically "I'm aware of this, I hope they don't believe this, please tell your kids not to bully these kids even though what they did was bad! Your kid will get in trouble if they bully these kids!". It also sounds like there has been persistent bullying FROM these kids without repercussions (definitely off-campus with sports, on campus, don't know.)

Kids are looking for adults in the community (teachers, coaches, etc.) to do something to address it. KK's plan seems reasonable. I looked for it and couldn't find a school "cyberbullying" policy or anything similar which kind of blew my mind. like even if the policy is "if it happens off campus, we can't do crap" that should at least be written down somewhere.