Presidential debate final stage (now moderated by an adult!)

[catastrophe]

Except WTF do you do with it?

[catastrophe]

Take over a country with no economy and a bunch of starving people...

[Rage Against the McKee]

You feed them, duh.

[CNS]

I have zero problem with not paying taxes as long as it is in line with the law.  I mean, whoever has a problem with this needs to take it up with Congress, not the folks figuring crap out better than other ppl.

[sys]

Wait, what? How did I get in that group, I've never been critical of the Clinton Foundation?

you're a weirdo clintonophobe, believing things about her that have no basis in fact.  last night, for example, you were irate that cnn used the complete lack of evidence that clinton had ever engaged in birtherism to excuse her of having been a birther.  goddamn mainstream media.

[sys]

I'm honestly not sure what to think of someone who pays the maximum amount of taxes they possibly can. I'm actually not even sure what that means.

Like, do they take the standard deduction?

it means when they had their taxes done, they didn't use any means of deferring, sheltering or redirecting income on which taxes would be due that might look even slightly unsavory to voters who don't have the amount or types of income that would make those vehicles useful to them.

[ChiComCat]

There has been more dirt documented in 1 year of investigating Trump's charity than the decade investigating the Clinton foundation.

[XocolateThundarr]

I'm honestly not sure what to think of someone who pays the maximum amount of taxes they possibly can. I'm actually not even sure what that means.

Like, do they take the standard deduction?

it means when they had their taxes done, they didn't use any means of deferring, sheltering or redirecting income on which taxes would be due that might look even slightly unsavory to voters who don't have the amount or types of income that would make those vehicles useful to them.

As long as those vehicles are legal, it shouldn't matter.

[catastrophe]

Ok, wanted to make sure you weren't saying the Clintons did weird things like itemize their taxes and then not take any deductions. Or only investing in regular stocks instead of tax deferred vehicles for retirement.

Still, based on the sources of their income, are you sure those structures were even available to them? Or are you really just saying they're not doing anything on a return unless 10/10 tax attorneys say it's kosher?

[sys]

As long as those vehicles are legal, it shouldn't matter.

it matters to some voters.

[CNS]

@Sys, I assume I am in that group simply due to our money discussion?  I mean, I dislike her greatly, but I think it is for decent, non-ignorant reasons.   My only shot at the Clinton Foundation was based on an actual article I read and not on my general dislike of Hill. 

[sys]

Ok, wanted to make sure you weren't saying the Clintons did weird things like itemize their taxes and then not take any deductions. Or only investing in regular stocks instead of tax deferred vehicles for retirement.

Still, based on the sources of their income, are you sure those structures were even available to them? Or are you really just saying they're not doing anything on a return unless 10/10 tax attorneys say it's kosher?

i'm saying the clintons paid a very high effective tax rate.  i have heard tax attorneys/accountants talking on the television and the radio saying that it is basically impossible to pay that high of a rate without actively trying to.  and yes, they could shelter much of their income if they wished.  i'm no tax expert, but i know that much.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/12/clinton-releases-latest-tax-returns-paid-rate-of-43.html

[XocolateThundarr]

As long as those vehicles are legal, it shouldn't matter.

it matters to some voters.

I have zero issues with people not paying any more taxes than they are legally obligated to.  If you pay more than you have to, well, then you are indeed a dumbass.

[sys]

@Sys, I assume I am in that group simply due to our money discussion?  I mean, I dislike her greatly, but I think it is for decent, non-ignorant reasons.   My only shot at the Clinton Foundation was based on an actual article I read and not on my general dislike of Hill.

i've seen you make irrationally negative and/or erroneous comments about clinton, which along with your outsized hatred of her marks your clintonophibia.  i don't have an example at hand, but i'll try to flag the next one i notice.

[sys]

I have zero issues with people not paying any more taxes than they are legally obligated to.  If you pay more than you have to, well, then you are indeed a dumbass.

a candidate's tax rate isn't high on my list of issues either, but people can pick their own issues, you know?  i don't agree that a candidate forgoing some income to make themselves marginally more electable is stupid.

[Trim]

The Clintons should do a better job of marketing this thing.

[CNS]

I think one can dislike her and not have to rely on ignorance to do so.   

[CNS]

It will be interesting to see if Don is going to come better prepared for the next debate.  I would love it if he actually discussed some policy.  It would be interesting to see him mention an actual detail and see how his folks react.

[chum1]

It will be interesting to see if Don is going to come better prepared for the next debate.  I would love it if he actually discussed some policy.  It would be interesting to see him mention an actual detail and see how his folks react.

He's incapable. Honestly.

[catastrophe]

It will be interesting to see if Don is going to come better prepared for the next debate.  I would love it if he actually discussed some policy.  It would be interesting to see him mention an actual detail and see how his folks react.

He tried it and sounded moderately competent on trade (Hillary wasn't any more specific). I think there are just very low limits as to how much he can keep that up.

Trump seems like a genius the way he's able to appeal to crowds and generate free publicity, but I just think he's a natural at it and otherwise really stupid.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I wish one of the candidates were more pro-trade. Hillary was better before Bernie dragged her so far left.

[_33]

I dislike Hillary Clinton but it has nothing to do with policy, taxes, or that stuff.  She just seems like a terrible, mean-spirited person.  Same for Donald.  I prefer nice people, and these two appear to be total dicks most of the time.  Does this make me a Clintonophobe or a Donaldophobe? Maybe. But I prefer to think of myself self as a dickophobe.

[sys]

I wish one of the candidates were more pro-trade. Hillary was better before Bernie dragged her so far left.

yep.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

tonight was an unmitigated disaster for trump.

How? He stayed on his message, there was nothing that happened tonight that will turn supporters away from him. I think he played himself at the very beginning when he was trying to justify Hilrod's accusation that he hasn't paid taxes, "THAT'S SMART!" wtf? His moronic ass supporters won't give two shits that he hasn't paid taxes when 99.999% of them has mumbled at some time something about their taxes going to food stamps and Obama Phones.

I'm really glad you and hillary pay more taxes than legally obligated. It's good for the country.

You think he's hiding income to meet his legal obligation?

What are you talking about? I assume he isn't under IRS investigation or Hills would have brought that up. The constant audits obviously can't find anything wrong with his returns. It's interesting that she does bring up questions about his returns that nobody outside the IRS should have access to.

I didn't say anything about IRS investigation. He said that his revenue was $600+ million. Maybe I'm wrong but to not pay any income tax on that much income requires some creative accounting that doesn't mesh with his message or constituency.

The IRS doesn't allow "creative accounting" during audits. I'm sure his accountants are very good and know the relevant tax codes well. Income doesn't necessarily mean that money goes into your pocket if your a business owner. You can sink 100% back into your company(s) if you want.

I understand you believe 100% of his constituency are complete morons and don't understand this, but most successful business owners should be a very large part of that constituency, and they get it.

Stop lecturing me about the IRS and audits. You are intentionally dodging the larger point. What percentage of Trump voters, including Trump himself, would pitch a crap fit if any other politician not only didn't pay income tax but brag about not paying income tax?

I honestly don't believe him when he insinuates that he didn't pay any taxes, of course he has, just toying with hillary's conjecture. And, to answer your question, I don't think it matters to any of his supporters one bit about his taxes because he isn't a politician getting rich off his position in government. He actually contributes to the economy by making things and employing people. As much as his personality grates on my soul, you can't deny his business acumen.

[sys]

As much as his personality grates on my soul, you can't deny his business acumen.

it's very easy to, actually.  he lies about his personal wealth, but even generous estimates of his holdings are well short of what he'd have if he'd have just invested his inheritance in the stock market and let better businessmen generate returns on his capital.