Author Topic: Gender Issues  (Read 43254 times)

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Offline catastrophe

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Gender Issues
« Reply #550 on: March 03, 2021, 04:08:10 PM »
To your question, I think those are all open to interpretation and also subject to change.

For example, I can identify as a man, which I would say is my gender. But if society suddenly decided that having a penis and loving sports are “women things” then I might suddenly identify as a woman even though nothing about me actually changed.

A ridiculous example obviously, but helps illustrate the disconnect at least to me.

Offline Trim

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #551 on: March 03, 2021, 04:12:54 PM »
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

I used this: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/sex-gender-identity

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #552 on: March 03, 2021, 04:29:09 PM »
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html

Gotcha. So if gender is a social construct, what would be some distinctives between men and women. What would be a masculine trait and what would be a feminine trait? Again- sincerely asking.

I can kinda see where that goes, but I guess as we have gone through the whole "sex" and "gender" differentiation, certain things I can think of as "masculine" would be a variety of things like:

-Having a beard
-Wearing your hair shorter
-The color blue
-Told not to cry but suck it up
-Be tough, "deal with it" sort of attitude

Some of those are "fake" feeling things but plenty are "real"

Feminine obviously could be:
-Wearing dresses
-Wearing makeup
-Associated with the color pink
-OK/allowed to cry
-Playing with dolls
-Wearing your hair long

etc.

I guess a good way (for me) to differentiate the two between "gender" and "sex" is what is expected of a boy? of a girl? why do we treat them differently? How much of that is actually biological, how much of that is foisted expectations of society?

A real quick way to me to see if something is feminine is ask a real "masculine" dude if he would do *pick a feminine thing that has nothing to do with actually being a woman* like wear lipstick that literally has nothing to do with being a woman but things we associate with it.
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Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #553 on: March 03, 2021, 04:56:16 PM »
if you're looking for links, this was cited in the post Demi shared (along with links to a lot of research) https://not-binary.org/statement/

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #554 on: March 03, 2021, 06:06:48 PM »
Thanks MC.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #555 on: March 03, 2021, 09:33:19 PM »
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html

Gotcha. So if gender is a social construct, what would be some distinctives between men and women. What would be a masculine trait and what would be a feminine trait? Again- sincerely asking.

When you use the word trait are you referring to the biological term or the societal term? Because boys do x and girls do y, and boys look like x and girls look like y don't have a place in conversations about either gender or sexual identity.

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #556 on: March 03, 2021, 09:44:48 PM »
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #557 on: March 03, 2021, 09:56:40 PM »
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Like I said, if I were to answer, I would stick to biological traits only, but even those aren't always absolute, take Caster Semenya for example. I don't think there are absolute right and wrong answers here, even biologically there are always exceptions, for nearly everything you could conceive of. Going with societal traits is a losing proposition because there is nothing one can like, look like, or sound like that is unique to one gender.

Personally for me none of this matters, I'm always going to go with whatever the person decides for themselves, because why not, I have nothing to gain or lose by arguing with or even questioning someone else's identity. If someone who won the title of World's Strongest Man wants to identify as a woman, what do I care? It literally won't keep me or my loved ones alive for a second longer or put food on my kid's table. Not honoring someone's identity sure in the hell could have an adverse effect on my life though. No harm will come to me by continuing to live and let live.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #558 on: March 03, 2021, 09:58:07 PM »
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Like I said, if I were to answer, I would stick to biological traits only, but even those aren't always absolute, take Caster Semenya for example. I don't think there are absolute right and wrong answers here, even biologically there are always exceptions, for nearly everything you could conceive of. Going with societal traits is a losing proposition because there is nothing one can like, look like, or sound like that is unique to one gender.

Personally for me none of this matters, I'm always going to go with whatever the person decides for themselves, because why not, I have nothing to gain or lose by arguing with or even questioning someone else's identity. If someone who won the title of World's Strongest Man wants to identify as a woman, what do I care? It literally won't keep me or my loved ones alive for a second longer or put food on my kid's table. Not honoring someone's identity sure in the hell could have an adverse effect on my life though. No harm will come to me by continuing to live and let live.

For the record, I personally identify as the World's Strongest Man ...

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #559 on: March 03, 2021, 10:29:06 PM »
This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html

perhaps worth pointing out that the distinction outlined here is relatively recent and like any neologism neither fully understood or nor used by all english speakers.

"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline catastrophe

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Gender Issues
« Reply #560 on: March 04, 2021, 12:36:00 AM »
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Like I said, if I were to answer, I would stick to biological traits only, but even those aren't always absolute, take Caster Semenya for example. I don't think there are absolute right and wrong answers here, even biologically there are always exceptions, for nearly everything you could conceive of. Going with societal traits is a losing proposition because there is nothing one can like, look like, or sound like that is unique to one gender.

Personally for me none of this matters, I'm always going to go with whatever the person decides for themselves, because why not, I have nothing to gain or lose by arguing with or even questioning someone else's identity. If someone who won the title of World's Strongest Man wants to identify as a woman, what do I care? It literally won't keep me or my loved ones alive for a second longer or put food on my kid's table. Not honoring someone's identity sure in the hell could have an adverse effect on my life though. No harm will come to me by continuing to live and let live.
This is pretty much my take. I don’t see a point in arguing which traits are masculine vs feminine, and I definitely don’t see the point in arguing with how someone applies those in determining how they identify personally.

I think there is certainly utility in having a shared conception of sexuality (think how complicated dating would be if “man seeking woman” required 100 follow up questions), but to refuse to recognize what someone sincerely believes is their identity just seems cruel.

And for the unpopular part of the opinion, along the same lines I don’t think we should vilify someone who says (for example) they are only interested in someone born female who identifies as a woman.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 12:39:03 AM by catastrophe »

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #561 on: March 04, 2021, 08:42:49 AM »
However you want to answer is cool with me MIR. Catastrophe used both physical characteristics (having a penis) and his interests (liking sports).

I'm asking more like, if gender is a social construct, what is the difference between a man and a woman? What makes them different and not the same?

Like I said, if I were to answer, I would stick to biological traits only, but even those aren't always absolute, take Caster Semenya for example. I don't think there are absolute right and wrong answers here, even biologically there are always exceptions, for nearly everything you could conceive of. Going with societal traits is a losing proposition because there is nothing one can like, look like, or sound like that is unique to one gender.

Personally for me none of this matters, I'm always going to go with whatever the person decides for themselves, because why not, I have nothing to gain or lose by arguing with or even questioning someone else's identity. If someone who won the title of World's Strongest Man wants to identify as a woman, what do I care? It literally won't keep me or my loved ones alive for a second longer or put food on my kid's table. Not honoring someone's identity sure in the hell could have an adverse effect on my life though. No harm will come to me by continuing to live and let live.

For the record, I personally identify as the World's Strongest Man ...
This offends me, as I identify as the World's Weakest Man and this hurts my feelings. You're cancelled!

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #562 on: March 30, 2021, 02:24:38 PM »
helpful thread/article from the perspective of kids impacted by these laws being proposed

https://twitter.com/SamTLevin/status/1376941489478008832

https://twitter.com/SamTLevin/status/1376953472839389186
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 02:35:11 PM by michigancat »

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #563 on: March 31, 2021, 08:45:25 AM »
helpful thread/article from the perspective of kids impacted by these laws being proposed

https://twitter.com/SamTLevin/status/1376941489478008832

https://twitter.com/SamTLevin/status/1376953472839389186

Those appeals won't work a single bit on those who they need to influence to change their minds. People who think "boys shouldn't compete against girls" won't be the least bit compelled by the mental health of the child in question. You have to start with in almost all cases these transgender children aren't even looked at as children in the eyes of the skeptics

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #564 on: March 31, 2021, 09:29:10 AM »
Well I'm optimistic that it might influence someone like CF3, who I think is genuinely confused but willing to listen and learn.

To me the discourse around this rarely gives a crap about the kids going through the actual struggle so I thought it was good to hear their perspectives.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #565 on: March 31, 2021, 10:03:47 AM »
Neither side is totally indifferent to the kids suffering, they just blame different people for why that’s the case.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #566 on: March 31, 2021, 10:23:03 AM »
Neither side is totally indifferent to the kids suffering, they just blame different people for why that’s the case.
I don't know if there are two "sides" but a fairly large group is pretty damn close to totally indifferent about what trans kids go through

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #567 on: March 31, 2021, 10:29:31 AM »
Neither side is totally indifferent to the kids suffering, they just blame different people for why that’s the case.
I don't know if there are two "sides" but a fairly large group is pretty damn close to totally indifferent about what trans kids go through

While I don't agree with them, I don't think this is true. The other "side" thinks letting kids transition is child abuse and the parents should be punished.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #568 on: March 31, 2021, 10:52:20 AM »
Neither side is totally indifferent to the kids suffering, they just blame different people for why that’s the case.
I don't know if there are two "sides" but a fairly large group is pretty damn close to totally indifferent about what trans kids go through

While I don't agree with them, I don't think this is true. The other "side" thinks letting kids transition is child abuse and the parents should be punished.

that pales in comparison to them worrying about their daughters sharing a bathroom with a trans kid. So like, close to indifferent

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #569 on: March 31, 2021, 11:15:02 AM »
I was thinking along the lines of kids transitioning/ kids in sports. The bathroom bill people I think are just plain ignorant of the consequence of what they’re asking for.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #570 on: March 31, 2021, 11:18:05 AM »
I was thinking along the lines of kids transitioning/ kids in sports. The bathroom bill people I think are just plain ignorant of the consequence of what they’re asking for.

it's basically the same issue, but I think the youth sports focus is almost worse.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #571 on: March 31, 2021, 12:34:06 PM »
I don't think anyone really knows at this point the lasting effects/data on puberty blockers, but if the best science right now says that it's a net good thing, then I guess that's what makes sense to do (assuming all necessary parties are on-board). 

Feels like it's kind of throwing darts in the dark here, given the novelty of it.


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #572 on: March 31, 2021, 01:20:22 PM »
I don't think anyone really knows at this point the lasting effects/data on puberty blockers, but if the best science right now says that it's a net good thing, then I guess that's what makes sense to do (assuming all necessary parties are on-board). 

Feels like it's kind of throwing darts in the dark here, given the novelty of it.


I'm guessing these side effects aren't guesses:

Quote
What Are the Side Effects of Puberty Blockers?

While puberty blockers are generally considered safe, they have some side effects. Not everyone experiences the following, but some people do.

Possible long-term side effects of puberty blockers

    Lower bone density. To protect against this, we work to make sure every patient gets enough exercise, calcium and vitamin D, which can help keep bones healthy and strong. We also closely monitor patients’ bone density.
    Delayed growth plate closure, leading to slightly taller adult height. 
    Less development of genital tissue, which may limit options for gender affirming surgery (bottom surgery) later in life.
    Other possible long-term side effects that are not yet known.

Possible short-term side effects of puberty blockers

    Headache, fatigue, insomnia and muscle aches.
    Changes in weight, mood or breast tissue.
    Spotting or irregular periods (in menstruating patients whose periods are not completely suppressed by puberty blockers).

For children who want to delay or prevent unwanted physical changes, the mental health benefits of puberty blockers may outweigh these risks.

https://www.stlouischildrens.org/conditions-treatments/transgender-center/puberty-blockers

Offline DQ12

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #573 on: March 31, 2021, 01:22:23 PM »
How long have puberty blockers been (relatively) widely used? 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 01:31:09 PM by DQ12 »


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Offline michigancat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #574 on: March 31, 2021, 01:29:51 PM »
How long have puberty blockers been (relatively) widely used? 


depending on your definition of "widely", since the late 90's/early 2000's