Author Topic: Gender Issues  (Read 43283 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #525 on: March 03, 2021, 12:56:23 PM »
Did you just call me cult-like, MIR?

A cult follower, yeah.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #526 on: March 03, 2021, 12:58:30 PM »
Did you just call me cult-like, MIR?

A cult follower, yeah.
Talk about labels.... Good stuff!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 01:03:23 PM by 420seriouscat69 »

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #527 on: March 03, 2021, 01:19:54 PM »
She's super wrong about gender reveal parties being transphobic, I know it's an opinion but it's as wrong as having the opinion that the equator is just a social construct. If gender reveal parties are transphobic that means she's saying any acknowledgement of gender is wrong.

Learning the gender of your baby by seeing a sonogram, transphobic.
The hospital putting the gender of the baby on the card that goes on the plexiglass bassinet, transphobic.
Telling your parents the gender of your baby, transphobic.
Giving your child a non gender neutral name like Demetria Devonne or Demi, transphobic.
Circumcision, transphobic.
Using infant growth projection charts, transphobic.
Accepting balloons that say "It's A Girl," transphobic.

that's a pretty reasonable response, but I think you're mixing gender and sex - biological information in a medical setting is not the same thing as pink fireworks. But yeah, a lot of society is transphobic on some level! it's like the "everyone's a little bit racist" puppet song.

Gender reveals were targeted because they are pretty wildly hated by non-participants already and it started a decent conversation about transgender issues.

If she thinks gender reveal parties are transphobic, she's conflating gender and sex, not me.


I think there is actual tangible harm in blurring the lines on what's considered transphobic, anti-Semitic, racist, etc. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging the gender of a baby, or identifying someone's race those things aren't bigotry at work and making people feel that way is counterproductive.

what is the tangible harm in not throwing a gender reveal party? What is the harm in painting a nursery grey or green instead of pink or blue or naming a kid Alex or giving balloons that say "congratulations" instead of "it's a girl!"?

I used this analogy before, but if a kind middle-aged Western Kansan met you and said "wow you're articulate" is that guy doing any harm? He might be a racist, but I'm sure he doesn't think he is. Is it worth explaining to folks like this why a black man might take offense to that? It really might not be depending on the situation, but is having a conversation with SOMEONE about why that can be considered offensive going to cause tangible harm? Or is it a worthy discussion to have in an effort to educate and make all types of people feel like they belong in our society?

I didn't say there's tangible harm in not acknowledging or participating in our society's gender norms with babies, you took a left hand turn there. You can paint your room gray, only dress your kid in brown and name them Pat and still be insanely transphobic. Just like you can eat pink cake when you find out you're having a baby girl. Like I don't even get the color component of this at all, there are trans women that like pink and trans women that abhor pink. There are so many other things that are important to the battle for trans rights and lives that calling someone transphobic because they hit a blue exploding baseball is a looooonnnnnggggg reach. I imagine trans people have gender reveal parties long down the list of their worries.

For the record some person telling me that I'm articulate doesn't make that person a racist, a bigot, or even insensitive, I am articulate, a lot more articulate than this hypothetical person would normally encounter regardless of race. Even if she said "you're really articulate for a black guy" that would really require a follow up conversation, but I'm not going to call that person a racist without more information. I would be inclined to think they're an ignorant buffoon though.



Much in the same way that wacky and the outrage peddlers on the right consider anything they don't want to do or that hurts their feelings, cancel culture. People that use that phrase are the absolutely most controlled puppets on the planet, almost cult like. Using that term in the context of this conversation is ultra-ironic and hits to the heart of why it's absolutely moronic. This woman is expressing an opinion, frankly a really narrow minded opinion, but one nonetheless, and we have outrage robots whining about this woman expressing an opinion. It's like a race to see who can make the most banal point, the winner gets to be the biggest ignorant jackass.

yeah the post (which she borrowed) didn't call for anyone to be cancelled. It was like a "hey, I think gender reveals are transphobic, here's why" in a way to get people thinking about it, not to shame or call for boycotts or anything. the goal was to educate and start a discussion.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #528 on: March 03, 2021, 01:38:11 PM »

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #529 on: March 03, 2021, 01:46:18 PM »
 :rolleyes:

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #530 on: March 03, 2021, 01:47:19 PM »
I didn't say there's tangible harm in not acknowledging or participating in our society's gender norms with babies, you took a left hand turn there. You can paint your room gray, only dress your kid in brown and name them Pat and still be insanely transphobic. Just like you can eat pink cake when you find out you're having a baby girl. Like I don't even get the color component of this at all, there are trans women that like pink and trans women that abhor pink. There are so many other things that are important to the battle for trans rights and lives that calling someone transphobic because they hit a blue exploding baseball is a looooonnnnnggggg reach. I imagine trans people have gender reveal parties long down the list of their worries.

then where's the tangible harm in her post? Is it because it distracts from other trans issues? because a quick glance at Demi's IG shows that she talks about a wide range of LGBQT issues pretty frequently. People can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think our pal seven had a pretty good point that "cis-centric" or something similar is a way better label than "transphobic" and that might have triggered folks in a way that distracted them from the content of the post.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #531 on: March 03, 2021, 01:53:40 PM »
I don’t understand why the conversation about the propriety of her comments is judged by whether they cause “tangible harm” but the standard as to whether a person is transphobic in the first place hinges on whether they offend.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #532 on: March 03, 2021, 02:12:37 PM »
I didn't say there's tangible harm in not acknowledging or participating in our society's gender norms with babies, you took a left hand turn there. You can paint your room gray, only dress your kid in brown and name them Pat and still be insanely transphobic. Just like you can eat pink cake when you find out you're having a baby girl. Like I don't even get the color component of this at all, there are trans women that like pink and trans women that abhor pink. There are so many other things that are important to the battle for trans rights and lives that calling someone transphobic because they hit a blue exploding baseball is a looooonnnnnggggg reach. I imagine trans people have gender reveal parties long down the list of their worries.

then where's the tangible harm in her post? Is it because it distracts from other trans issues? because a quick glance at Demi's IG shows that she talks about a wide range of LGBQT issues pretty frequently. People can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think our pal seven had a pretty good point that "cis-centric" or something similar is a way better label than "transphobic" and that might have triggered folks in a way that distracted them from the content of the post.

She's blurring the lines of what's actually transphobic, we need to be educating people and making the standard an impossible one to follow not only makes it difficult to educate people but it opens up pretty much everyone, including trans people themselves to hypocrisy. Cis-centric is an absolutely perfect term and it's miles and miles away from transphobia. This won't happen because she's attempting to be an ally so no one will hold her feet to the fire on it, but she should actually have to apologize for so cavalierly throwing that phrase around. I do believe that transphobia, anti-Semitism, racism, bigotry, etc. have power and like anything else powerful, that power can be diluted.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #533 on: March 03, 2021, 02:13:18 PM »
I don’t understand why the conversation about the propriety of her comments is judged by whether they cause “tangible harm” but the standard as to whether a person is transphobic in the first place hinges on whether they offend.

It doesn't, it shouldn't, intent matters.

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #534 on: March 03, 2021, 02:23:45 PM »
I don't think my leaf post got the acknowledgement it deserved jerks

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #535 on: March 03, 2021, 02:29:51 PM »
I don't think my leaf post got the acknowledgement it deserved jerks
It was great, bud!  :thumbs: :lol:

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #536 on: March 03, 2021, 02:38:22 PM »
I didn't say there's tangible harm in not acknowledging or participating in our society's gender norms with babies, you took a left hand turn there. You can paint your room gray, only dress your kid in brown and name them Pat and still be insanely transphobic. Just like you can eat pink cake when you find out you're having a baby girl. Like I don't even get the color component of this at all, there are trans women that like pink and trans women that abhor pink. There are so many other things that are important to the battle for trans rights and lives that calling someone transphobic because they hit a blue exploding baseball is a looooonnnnnggggg reach. I imagine trans people have gender reveal parties long down the list of their worries.

then where's the tangible harm in her post? Is it because it distracts from other trans issues? because a quick glance at Demi's IG shows that she talks about a wide range of LGBQT issues pretty frequently. People can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think our pal seven had a pretty good point that "cis-centric" or something similar is a way better label than "transphobic" and that might have triggered folks in a way that distracted them from the content of the post.

She's blurring the lines of what's actually transphobic, we need to be educating people and making the standard an impossible one to follow not only makes it difficult to educate people but it opens up pretty much everyone, including trans people themselves to hypocrisy. Cis-centric is an absolutely perfect term and it's miles and miles away from transphobia. This won't happen because she's attempting to be an ally so no one will hold her feet to the fire on it, but she should actually have to apologize for so cavalierly throwing that phrase around. I do believe that transphobia, anti-Semitism, racism, bigotry, etc. have power and like anything else powerful, that power can be diluted.

she just reposted an infographic set from a trans activist FWIW. She posts similar things all the time and I think it would have been an appropriate educational discussion starter for her core audience and not a hard line in the sand or impossible standard to follow.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLs2T7AhsLh/

Offline Trim

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #537 on: March 03, 2021, 02:52:10 PM »
It was earlier today that I looked up that “sex” is the term for basic science ball(s) or vag, while “gender identity” is what a person feels and expresses. If that’s right, I think Demi has an error at the bottom of page 4 of that thing.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #538 on: March 03, 2021, 03:41:58 PM »
It is a bit of a misnomer to be fair.

To be more specific...people aren't really having "gender" reveal parties.  They're having "sex" reveal parties. 


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Offline MadCat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #539 on: March 03, 2021, 03:42:15 PM »
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

Online steve dave

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #540 on: March 03, 2021, 03:44:30 PM »
It is a bit of a misnomer to be fair.

To be more specific...people aren't really having "gender" reveal parties.  They're having "sex" reveal parties.
That’s a good point


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #541 on: March 03, 2021, 03:49:00 PM »
It was earlier today that I looked up that “sex” is the term for basic science ball(s) or vag, while “gender identity” is what a person feels and expresses. If that’s right, I think Demi has an error at the bottom of page 4 of that thing.
I figured sex was really determined by genetics rather than organs. (I.e., you are a male if you have an XY chromosome even if you don’t have a penis). In that sense the statement could still be accurate, although it doesn’t seem to be what she meant.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #542 on: March 03, 2021, 03:50:20 PM »
It is a bit of a misnomer to be fair.

To be more specific...people aren't really having "gender" reveal parties.  They're having "sex" reveal parties.
That’s a good point


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This seems to be her point, and yet she’s being extremely combative about it instead of saying “can we just call them sex reveal parties?” Instead of saying you are transphobic if you celebrate the sex of an unborn child.

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #543 on: March 03, 2021, 03:54:40 PM »
"extremely combative" seems a bit...extreme

Offline Spracne

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #544 on: March 03, 2021, 03:55:45 PM »
Alright. Let's strike that and go with "combative." Good?

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #545 on: March 03, 2021, 03:56:28 PM »
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

Offline MadCat

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #546 on: March 03, 2021, 04:03:52 PM »
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #547 on: March 03, 2021, 04:04:27 PM »
For instance- if i were using the term homosexual or heterosexual, i would say the difference is in who someone is romantically or physically attracted to, roughly speaking.

Again- I’m not looking to debate, but i can’t clearly state the argument of sex and gender being different, and if they are different, what defines a persons gender. There are things I’d disagree on, but rather than disagreeing, I’m looking to understand a that position more clearly.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #548 on: March 03, 2021, 04:04:30 PM »
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?
I think the dictionary is your best source for understanding how “gender” is different from sex. And I don’t say that sarcastically. I’m just saying it is a concept derived from a shared understanding more so than anything else.

Any medical professional or scientist dealing with physiology will only deal with sex (of course including to the extent a transgendered person wants to change their sex organs to match their gender). Gender in my mind is purely a social construct that can change over time and even day to day.

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Gender Issues
« Reply #549 on: March 03, 2021, 04:07:49 PM »
Yes, sex is biology and gender is a social construct.  Technically, you can't have a gender reveal for an unborn baby...just a sex reveal.

Edit: what DQ12 said

What sources would you (or anyone) site to differentiate between sex and gender? What would be some distinctions between men’s and women’s genders?

This one seems to explain it fairly well:
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html

Gotcha. So if gender is a social construct, what would be some distinctives between men and women. What would be a masculine trait and what would be a feminine trait? Again- sincerely asking.